2018 Minuses

Calculus Level 3

x ± x ± x ± x ± \sqrt { x\pm \sqrt { x\pm \sqrt { x\pm \sqrt { x\pm \cdots } } } }

Within this infinitely nested radical, exactly 2018 of the ± \pm symbols are assigned to be minus ( ) (-) signs, with the rest of the ± \pm symbols assigned to be plus ( + ) (+) signs (the minus signs don't need to be consecutive).

What's the minimum positive value of x x that guarantees the above expression has a real value?

Enter your answer in the form 1000 x . \left\lfloor 1000x \right\rfloor.

Note: Consider the worst-case scenario, among all possible places where the 2018 2018 minuses could be.


The answer is 2000.

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2 solutions

Michael Mendrin
Oct 17, 2018

If there is a finite number of minuses in an infintite sequence of + + 's and - 's, then after the last minus there is an embedded infinite nested radical consisting only of positive x x 's The value of this can be found by solving for z z

z = x + z z = \sqrt{x+z}

the resulting being z = 1 2 ( 1 + 1 + 4 x ) z = \dfrac{1}{2}\left(1+\sqrt{1+4x}\right)

For the radical x z \sqrt{x - z} to be real, x z x \ge z , so that solving for x x here

x = 1 2 ( 1 + 1 + 4 x ) x = \dfrac{1}{2}\left(1+\sqrt{1+4x}\right)

gets us x 2 x \ge 2 . Otherwise if x < 2 x<2 , this radical becomes imaginary.

Suppose with the last minus in the sequence, the radical becomes imaginary. Thereafter, in going back outwards towards less embedded radicals, whenever a complex number is added or substracted from a real number ( x x in this case), the radical of the sum or difference is still imaginary. Thus, the entire infinite nested radical is imaginary, once any of its embedded radicals becomes imaginary. It may be possible that as a limit, some infinite nested radical beginning with an imaginary number in its most embedded radical "may approach a real number", but there is only a finite number of radicals from the last minus to the start.

If x 2 x \ge 2 , then the radical containing the last minus in the sequence has the value of 0 \ge 0 . Since x 1 2 ( 1 + 1 + 4 x ) x \ge \dfrac{1}{2}\left(1+\sqrt{1+4x}\right) for all x 2 x \ge 2 , regardless of the number of positive x x 's to the next minus, the radical containing that next minus will always be positive and yield a real value. Thus, all such infinite nested radicals are real for x 2 x \ge 2 .

In all this, we work from the most embedded radicals outward to the "largest" radical, the one that is not embedded at all.

Here plotted are some selected infinite nested radicals that have a small number of minuses to give one an idea. The plot that has real values for 0 x 2 0 \le x \le 2 is the case where there are no minuses.

Note: If one tries to consider a case where there are "minuses at the end of of all pluses", that implies that there is an end to all pluses, when there is not. Hence, the most embedded radical which contains no minuses has the value 1 2 ( 1 + 1 + 4 x ) \dfrac{1}{2}\left(1+\sqrt{1+4x}\right) , and we then only need to consider a finite nested radical with all the finite number of minuses in it.

This question truely is an easy one in disguise. I love the ingenuity of these questions!

Julian Poon - 2 years, 7 months ago

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I agree with you fully. I also like the graphics in Michael's solution.

Laszlo Mihaly - 2 years, 7 months ago

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Laszlo and Julian... I came across these graphics while investigating these types of infinite nested radicals and thought it pretty too, and then wondered how I could make this into a problem. What's interesting about the field of infinite nested radicals is that they only sometimes consider negative terms... I guess that complicates things, doesn't it?

Michael Mendrin - 2 years, 7 months ago

nice one really liked the explanation given to it.

Anmol Rastogi - 2 years, 7 months ago

and is there a solution?

Felix Pirvan - 2 years, 6 months ago

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The answer is 2

Michael Mendrin - 2 years, 6 months ago
Ethan White
Nov 11, 2018

Given the expression x ± x ± x ± . . . \sqrt{x \pm \sqrt{x \pm \sqrt{x \pm...}}} ...

The way I solved this is to imagine the worst-case scenario, which would be the case where the expression under the first radical...

x ± x ± x ± . . . x \pm \sqrt{x \pm \sqrt{x \pm...}}

...is negative for the most values of x x . This means we'd like to subtract the first term, x x , by the biggest number possible, because after the first term, the size of the number we can subtract by shrinks rapidly. Therefore, the first negative sign should be placed after the first term.

Our next goal is to maximize what follows the negative sign, the rest of the nested radical. If all of the signs could hypothetically be positive, which would yield a maximum value for the expression following x x , we would have y = x + x + x + . . . y=\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+...}}} , where we can solve for y:

x + x + x + . . . = x + y \sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x+...}}}=\sqrt{x+y}

y = x + y y=\sqrt{x+y}

y 2 y x = 0 y^2-y-x=0

y = 1 2 ( 1 + 1 + 4 x ) y=\frac{1}{2}(1+\sqrt{1+4x})

The expression following the first term x x grows closer and closer to y y as we place the 2017 remaining negative signs, all consecutively, further and further down the nested radical, each place down maximizing the expression further, and therefore y y becoming a better and better approximation. Hence, the worst-case scenario is when the remaining negative signs are placed in the n n -through- ( n + 2016 ) (n+2016) th positions as n n approaches infinity. This approaches y y , and thus letting n n approach infinity gives us the function representing the "worst-case scenario":

f ( x ) = x y f(x)=\sqrt{x-y}

The smallest real value f f could give us would be 0, so solve for x y = 0 x-y=0 :

x 1 2 ( 1 + 1 + 4 x ) x-\frac{1}{2}(1+\sqrt{1+4x})

2 x 1 = 1 + 4 x 2x-1=-\sqrt{1+4x}

4 x 2 8 x = 0 4x^2-8x=0

x = 0 , x = 2 x=0, x=2

Since 0 isn't a positive value, 2 must be the answer.

how can x=2 be the answer, when f(2)=0 and then sqrt(x-f(x)) = sqrt(2)?

Felix Pirvan - 2 years, 6 months ago

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Since f(x) is created by approximating the "worst" possible scenario, a function which is smaller than all others that you could create by placing negatives in different spaces, and it is a radical, the fact that f(2) = 0 is the reason x = 2 is the answer.

I'm not sure how the second point hurts the proof, but in case this is the confusion: y =/= f(x), y=sqrt(x+y) and f(x)=sqrt(x-y).

Ethan White - 2 years, 6 months ago

Note how for the last minus sign: 2 2 + 2 + . . . = 0 \sqrt{2-\sqrt{2+\sqrt{2+...}}} = 0 . Then 2 ± 2 ± 2 ± . . . . . . ± 0 \sqrt{2 \pm \sqrt{2 \pm \sqrt{2 \pm ... ... \pm 0}}} will be a unique real finite number, as there are a finite amount of square roots.

Alex Burgess - 2 years, 5 months ago

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