An Unconventional Game of Billiard

You attempt a trick shot by striking the cue ball below its center of mass, aiming away from the striped ball. Your hope is to give the cue ball enough backspin so that it will return and knock the striped ball into the corner pocket.

How can you guarantee that the cue ball will always return to hit the striped ball into the corner?

Details and Assumptions:

  • The cue ball has mass m m and radius r , r, the initial velocity you give it is v 0 , v_0, and the backspin you give it is ω 0 . \omega_0.
  • Treat the cue ball as a perfect solid sphere.
  • The collision between the cue stick and cue ball is perfectly elastic.
  • You hit the ball such that it is always in contact with the ground.
v 0 < r ω 0 v_0<r\omega_0 v 0 < 2 r ω 0 v_0<2r\omega_0 2 v 0 < r ω 0 2v_0<r\omega_0 5 v 0 < 2 r ω 0 5v_0<2r\omega_0

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12 solutions

Roberto Aponte
Jul 9, 2018

First, let's forget and change the backspin w o w_{o} to w s w_{s} for interpretation purposes.

For the cue ball, we need to guarantee the conservation of momentum in the exact moment after it is hitten by the cue and then it is released from contact with it at a speed of v o v_{o} and a backspin of w s w_{s} . Thus, in that instant we will proceed with the total kinetic energy of the ball as:

K = K E t + K E r K=KE_{t} + KE_{r}

K = 1 2 m v o 2 + 1 2 I w s 2 K=\frac{1}{2}mv_{o}^2+\frac{1}{2}Iw_{s}^2

From here, we have two approaches, but I'll decide to work in a translational movement basis, so I'll turn the rotational energy into its translational equivalent using v s = w s r v_{s}=w_{s}r and the moment of inertia of a sphere 2 5 m r 2 \frac{2}{5}mr^2 . Then,

K = 1 2 m v o 2 + 1 2 ( 2 5 m r 2 ) ( v s r ) 2 K=\frac{1}{2}mv_{o}^2+\frac{1}{2}(\frac{2}{5}mr^2)(\frac{v_{s}}{r})^2

K = 1 2 m v o 2 + 1 5 m v s 2 K=\frac{1}{2}mv_{o}^2+\frac{1}{5}mv_{s}^2 ,

and we derivate the energy equation with respect to the speed to get the momentum,

d K d v = m v o + 2 5 m v s \frac{dK}{dv}=mv_{o}+\frac{2}{5}mv_{s} ,

Because the velocities are in opposite directions, to achieve the return of the cue ball, the condition is that,

v 0 < 2 5 v s v_{0}<\frac{2}{5}v_{s}

That's why:

5 v 0 < 2 w s r 5v_{0}<2w_{s}r

Why does the derivative of the rotational kinetic energy of the ball with respect to it's surface velocity give some sort of linear momentum?

Tynan Sigg - 2 years, 11 months ago

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I think the hint is in the sentence "turn the rotational energy into its translational equivalent". This is because the displacement of the ball is actually due to its rotation. Note that this is might not be true when friction isn't present.

Antonio Quintana - 2 years, 11 months ago

If the cloth didn't cause any friction then the ball wouldn't come back at all, would it?! And if it causes friction then somehow it should be taken into consideration in terms of "stealing energy from the ball", or shouldn't it?

Nik Gibson - 2 years, 11 months ago

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That's correct. But because dry friction between the ball and the surface doesn't depend on the velocity, I don't take it in consideration.

Roberto Aponte - 2 years, 10 months ago

That's why I stated only the total kinetic energy of the ball. Cheers.

Roberto Aponte - 2 years, 10 months ago

I really don't like the way of putting the solution if this is a correct answer then the others are correct too. Because kicking the ball at velocity v<wr also guarantee that the cue ball will always return to hit the striped ball into the corner

Pau Cantos - 2 years, 11 months ago

Hitten is not a word sir. It's hit all the way.

Yathish Dhavala - 2 years, 10 months ago

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Sorry for my old english reference here gentleman ;).

Roberto Aponte - 2 years, 10 months ago
Denis Kartachov
Jun 27, 2018

There are two approaches to this problem that I could find: impulse/momentum principles and basic kinematics. My solution will focus on the former, but I encourage you to post your own solutions as well!

I'm assuming a 2D environment here where the cue ball rolls in the POSITIVE x direction. Impulse momentum principle in linear direction states:

Δ t F x d t = Δ ( m v ) \int_{\Delta t} \sum F_x dt = \Delta(mv)

Free body diagram reveals the friction force f k f_k in the negative x direction, so: F x = f k = μ k N = μ k m g \sum F_x = -f_k = -\mu_kN = -\mu_kmg . Furthermore, the initial velocity of the cue ball is v 0 v_0 and its final velocity when it rolls without slip is v v , so we get:

Δ t μ k m g d t = m v m v 0 \int_{\Delta t} -\mu_kmg dt = mv - mv_0

μ k m g Δ t = m ( v v 0 ) -\mu_kmg \Delta t = m(v - v_0)

μ k g Δ t = v 0 v \mu_kg \Delta t = v_0 - v (1)

Now for angular momentum principle, I'm assuming clockwise direction to be positive, so the initial angular velocity is ω 0 -\omega_0 . The final angular velocity when it rolls without slip is ω \omega and the sum of moments on the ball relative to its center of mass is simply f k r = μ k m g r f_kr = \mu_kmgr . Angular momentum principle holds:

Δ t M d t = Δ ( I ω ) \int_{\Delta t} \sum M dt = \Delta(I\omega)

The moment of inertia of a sphere is 2 5 m r 2 \frac{2}{5} mr^2 therefore we get:

Δ t μ k m g r d t = I ω I ( ω 0 ) \int_{\Delta t} \mu_kmgr dt = I\omega - I(-\omega_0)

μ k m g r Δ t = 2 5 m r 2 ( ω + ω 0 ) \mu_kmgr \Delta t =\frac{2}{5} mr^2(\omega + \omega_0)

μ k g Δ t = 2 5 r ( ω + ω 0 ) \mu_kg \Delta t =\frac{2}{5} r(\omega + \omega_0) (2)

Notice the similar term μ k g Δ t \mu_kg \Delta t in both equations (1) and (2) , we can equate them to obtain:

2 5 r ( ω + ω 0 ) = v 0 v \frac{2}{5} r(\omega + \omega_0) = v_0 - v

I made the assertion that the ball will start rolling without slip after a certain amount of time, this implies v = r ω v = r\omega or ω = v r \omega = \frac{v}{r} so we can plug this in to get:

2 5 r ( v r + ω 0 ) = v 0 v \frac{2}{5} r(\frac{v}{r} + \omega_0) = v_0 - v

2 5 v + 2 5 r ω 0 = v 0 v \frac{2}{5}v + \frac{2}{5}r\omega_0 = v_0 - v

7 5 v = v 0 2 5 r ω 0 \frac{7}{5}v = v_0 - \frac{2}{5}r \omega_0

v = 5 v 0 2 r ω 0 7 v = \frac{5v_0 - 2r \omega_0}{7}

We want the cue ball to always come back, so we need to impose v v to be negative, that is, travelling in the negative x direction. So the condition is:

5 v 0 < 2 r ω 0 5v_0 < 2r \omega_0

Notice that if 5 v 0 > 2 r ω 0 5v_0 > 2r \omega_0 then the no slip velocity will be positive and the ball will always roll away.

а ты где такое решение нашел? точно уверен, что оно такое? я не совсем понимаю лично, как там можно обойтись без "учитывания" силы трения о сукно (без нее шар не вернется назад, какого винта ты ему не давай)... и я не пойму, как коэффициент силы трения "может не влиять" на скорость обратного движения шара...

Nik Gibson - 2 years, 11 months ago
Laszlo Mihaly
Jul 9, 2018

There is a friction force F F acting at the bottom of the ball that pulls it backward. The equation of motion for the center of mass is m d v d t = F m\frac{dv}{dt}=F . The equation of motion for the rotation around the center of mass is 2 5 m r 2 d ω d t = F r \frac{2}{5}mr^2\frac{d\omega}{dt}=Fr , where r r is the radius, 2 5 m r 2 \frac{2}{5}mr^2 is the moment of inertia and F r Fr is the torque. Eliminating F F we get 2 5 m r d ω d t = m d v d t \frac{2}{5}mr\frac{d\omega}{dt}=m\frac{dv}{dt} , or

2 r d ω d t = 5 d v d t 2r\frac{d\omega}{dt}=5\frac{dv}{dt}

This equation sets a relationship between the rate of change of the linear and rotational velocities. For the ball to have a backward velocity we need 5 v 0 < 2 ω 0 r 5v_0<2\omega_0 r

This is essentially what I did. The friction force may not constant (static vs kinetic friction) so I wrote F = F(t) and integrated over time until v = 0. At this point we want some angular velocity left, so 5 v 0 < 2 ω 0 r 5v_0 < 2\omega_0 r .

Ian Leslie - 2 years, 11 months ago

Can you explain why 2r dw/dt = 5 dv/dt implies that you for the ball to have a backward velocity w need 5 v0 < 2 w0 r

Geeta . - 2 years, 11 months ago
Won Lee
Jul 14, 2018

This question does not require lengthy calculations. Just remember the angular momentum is conserved in respect to the ground (where the frictional force is being applied, so the torque is zero). And for the ball to return, its total angular momentum must be in the same direction with the angular momentum generated by backspin ω 0 \omega_0 and opposite to angular momentum generated by linear velocity v 0 v_0 . So the equation is:

I ω 0 > r m v 0 I\omega_0 > rmv_0

where I I is the moment of inertia of the ball. For a sphere of mass m m and radius r r , I = 2 5 m r 2 I=\frac{2}{5}mr^2 . So,

2 5 m r 2 ω 0 > r m v 0 \frac{2}{5}mr^2\omega_0 > rmv_0

2 r ω 0 > 5 v 0 2r\omega_0>5v_0

Zi Ji Tang
Jul 13, 2018

Conservation of angular momentum.

Here we have a little tricky skill about using this:

Lets choose one point (anyone) on the table as the reference axis(exactly on the point),and write down the angular momentum of the cue ball at t = 0 t=0 :

As the friction force points toward the axis, M = 0 M=0

So we can use the conservation of angular momentum.

L = m v 0 r 2 5 m ω 0 r 2 = c o n s t L=mv_0r-\frac{2}{5}mω_0r^2=const

Assuming that the direction poingting into the screen is the positive direction.

if the cue ball moves toward the hole, the angular momentum of it shold be negative.(poingting our of the screen)

m v 0 r < 2 5 m ω 0 r 2 mv_0r<\frac{2}{5}mω_0r^2

5 v 0 < 2 ω 0 r 5v_0<2ω_0r

【I'm really sorry if I didn't express it in a formal way because I'm not sure about some words......English is not my mother tongue( ̄▽ ̄)/】

Shouvik Chaudhury
Jul 12, 2018

Note: From t=0 to t=t', the ball is slipping forward (not rolling), hence friction acts backward

Loving the diagrams and straight-forward explanation, my favorite solution so far!

Denis Kartachov - 2 years, 11 months ago

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Thanks Denis!

shouvik chaudhury - 2 years, 11 months ago
Kelvin Hong
Jul 9, 2018

Let the friction force to be f = m a f=ma where a a denotes acceleration. Then, we calculate angular acceleration: f r = I α = 2 5 m r 2 α α = 5 f 2 m r \begin{aligned}fr&=I\alpha\\&=\frac25mr^2\alpha\\\alpha&=\frac{5f}{2mr}\end{aligned}

Then, we use two elementary relations about velocity and angular velocity: { v = v 0 + a t ω = ω 0 + α t \begin{cases}v=v_0+at\\\omega=\omega_0+\alpha t\end{cases} Plugin expressions a = f m a=\frac fm and α = 5 f 2 m r \alpha=\frac{5f}{2mr} we obtain their relation: r α = 5 2 a r\alpha=\frac52a In addition, if the cue ball successfully trace back and always contact with the surface, it should have v < 0 v<0 and v = r ω v=r\omega if the initial velocity v 0 v_0 is assumed to be positive.

By the knowledge of these concepts, we can rewrite the expressions as { 5 v = 5 v 0 + 5 a t 2 v = 2 r ω 0 + 5 a t \begin{cases}5v=5v_0+5at\\2v=2r\omega_0+5at\end{cases} Subtract to get 3 v = 5 v 0 2 r ω 0 < 0 5 v 0 < 2 r ω 0 3v=5v_0-2r\omega_0<0\rightarrow\boxed{5v_0<2r\omega_0} .

I tried to solve this with conservation of energy. Kinetic energy of forward movement has to be lower than kinetic energy of backward spin in order to the ball go back, so:

K E m < K E s KEm < KEs

1 2 m v 2 < 1 2 I ω 2 \frac{1}{2}mv^2 < \frac{1}{2}I\omega^2

m v 2 < 2 5 m r 2 ω 2 mv^2 < \frac{2}{5}mr^2\omega^2

5 v 2 < 2 r 2 ω 2 5v^2 < 2r^2 \omega^2

I would be very grateful if someone told me where i made mistake.

Few things: 1) Ball initially has rotational + kinetic energy 2) Ball finishes with rotational + kinetic energy when it rolls back toward the striped ball 3) Energy is not conserved because of friction

Denis Kartachov - 2 years, 11 months ago

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Correct me if I am wrong but because of friction is rotational energy converted into movement backwards (the ball is affected by force (friction) opposite the inital way because of speed diference of point on sphere (circle) and the ground). If we assume that no heat is created, energy is conserved. If both rotational and kinetic energy from movement were the same, the ball would stop after some distance. If initial rotational energy is greater than initial kinetic energy, then the part of remaining rotational energy is converted into movement back.

Martin Procházka - 2 years, 11 months ago

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Your assumption of energy is conserved for the system not including the surroundings is wrong. What I mean to say is that friction takes the energy from the system and releases in the form of heat, sound ....whatever. Friction is a non-conservative force. It always messes with the energy of the system. So your energy conservation equation would be wrong, you will have to include energy loss due to friction.

john leo v - 2 years, 11 months ago

Yes, what John said. Friction is a non-conservative force and must be included if you're doing energy analysis of a system.

Denis Kartachov - 2 years, 11 months ago
Lance Kuanwu
Jul 15, 2018

I'll will again post very simple cheating solution since everybody above me has got the right ones already =)

1)v<rw => v<rw

2)v<2rw => v<2rw

3)2v<rw => v<0.5rw

4)5v<2rw => v<0.4rw

If option 1 is the right answer, then 3 and 4 must be right as well, since if v<0.5rw or v<0.4rw is true, v<rw is definitely true, so 3 and 4 are also sufficient condition.

By the same logic, if option 2 is true, then 1,3 and 4 are all true. All options guarantee the ball will return.

Lastly, if option 3 is true, option 4 is also true.

Since there is only one correct answer, the only option that doesn't result in another option being true is option 4.

Saswat Prakash
Jul 13, 2018

1st apply newtons 2nd law for translatory motion V=v_0-ft/m So time when ball stops for the first time is ; t=(mv0)/f Now newtons 2nd law for rotational motion ; w=w0-5ft/2mr=>w=w0-(5v0)/2r As ,w>0; 5v0<2w0 r

Quang Hoang
Jul 11, 2018

What I did was understand that more backspin and more velocity will probably ensure the trick shot, so I picked the last option.

Jeremy Galvagni
Jul 8, 2018

With physics problems like this I usually just throw numbers and formulas around and see what happens.

Momentum has to be conserved. So if we want the linear momentum to balance the rotational momentum we need formulas for each.

I know the linear momentum formula is m v mv and I can look up angular momentum for a sphere. Angular momentum = moment of inertia times angular velocity becomes 2 5 m r 2 ω \frac{2}{5}mr^{2}*\omega (At this point only one answer makes sense because of the 5. Nothing's going to cancel that, but let's keep going.)

If I set them equal then the m m 's cancel and I can write 5 v = 2 r 2 ω 5v=2r^{2}\omega . Obviously, we need a little extra spin, so the angular side is greater.

I picked the right one, but you can see I did something a little wrong because my answer's got r 2 r^{2} it should just have r r .

Well you kind of took linear momentum rather than angular, that's why you have an extra r, angular momentum would be m v r

Pranav Acharya - 2 years, 11 months ago

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I used the same angular momentum formula as the real solution but in his there an r r sitting on the other side, ready to cancel one of them out.

What does "The sum of moments on the ball relative to its center of mass" mean?

Jeremy Galvagni - 2 years, 11 months ago

You cannot set linear momentum equal to angular momentum, they are two different things!

Denis Kartachov - 2 years, 11 months ago

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Why are they different? Isn't the situation about converting angular into linear?

Oh, I just checked the units. They aren't the same. Linear is k g m s \frac{kg \cdot m}{s} but angular is k g m 2 s \frac{kg \cdot m^{2}}{s} . I can see where my extra r r came from, but ignore it and the answer is right. Did I just get lucky? Where did my extra r r go?

Jeremy Galvagni - 2 years, 11 months ago

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Angular and linear momentum are independent of each other, you need to treat them separately. Same reason you cannot set Torque equal to a Force.

I suggest you change the way you approach physics problems: instead of focusing on numbers and formulas that look like a possible answer, you should focus on the physical principles behind the problem BEFORE applying formulas and equations!

Denis Kartachov - 2 years, 11 months ago

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