Azhaghu always compares

Algebra Level 2

A = 65 8 , B = 50 7 A=\sqrt{65}-8, \quad B=\sqrt{50}-7

Azhaghu was once learning square roots as he liked to compare radical expressions. He worked day and night on his new topic and found the two expressions above.

After working hard, reading Naruto and eating chips, Azhaghu figured out correctly which of A A and B B is bigger.

So which is indeed bigger?


Bonus : Generalize this.

B B A A A A and B B cannot be compared Both are equal

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21 solutions

Prakhar Gupta
Jun 1, 2015

If we decide to just stick to A A and B B and find out which of the two is bigger, we can do it as follows:-

We know that 65 + 8 > 50 + 7 \sqrt{65}+8 > \sqrt{50} +7 From the properties of inequalities:- 1 65 + 8 < 1 50 + 7 \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{65}+8}< \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{50}+7} Now we can rationalize the radical expression on both the sides. 65 8 < 50 7 \sqrt{65}-8 < \sqrt{50} - 7 A < B A<B Hence B B is Bigger.

Moderator note:

Great! This is the rationalizing numerator approach. Since the simplest way has been mentioned, and for the sake of variety, can you think of a solution that doesn't use any of the methods that have been used by you or the other members?

I was expecting this solution. Nice one.

Nihar Mahajan - 6 years ago

Here is another way to solve it though longer

A= 65 \sqrt{65} -8

B= 50 \sqrt{50} -7

Let's assume A> B

So, A 2 A^{2} > B 2 B^{2}

A 2 A^{2} - B 2 B^{2} > 0

(A+B) (A-B) > 0

A+B = 65 \sqrt{65} -8 + 50 \sqrt{50} -7

A+B = 65 \sqrt{65} + 50 \sqrt{50} -15

Since both the sq rt are individually larger than the whole numbers the expression A+B >0

Now A-B = 65 \sqrt{65} -8 - 50 \sqrt{50} +7

= 65 \sqrt{65} - 50 \sqrt{50} - 1

Since we have assumed A 2 A^{2} - B 2 B^{2} > 0 , so, A-B >0

So, 65 \sqrt{65} - 50 \sqrt{50} - 1 >0

65 \sqrt{65} - 50 \sqrt{50} > 1

( 65 \sqrt{65} - 50 ) ( ( 65 \sqrt{50}\ ) ( (\sqrt{65} + 50 ) > ( ( 65 \sqrt{50}\ ) > ( (\sqrt{65} + 50 \sqrt{50} )

65-50 > ( 65 \sqrt{65} + 50 \sqrt{50} )

15> ( 65 \sqrt{65} + 50 \sqrt{50} )

8+7 > ( 65 \sqrt{65} + 50 \sqrt{50} )

But, we know 65 \sqrt{65} > 8 and 50 \sqrt{50} > 7

So this proves the above assumption wrong which means our initial assumption of A>B is wrong. Hence, B> A

Swayamsiddha Mohapatra - 5 years, 12 months ago

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Wonderful solution! Nice logic. :)

Krish Shah - 1 year, 1 month ago

best one..!

Niraj Upadhyay - 6 years ago

i tried this way, Given to compare: √65 -8, √50-7 Lets multiply, (√65 -8) with √10 and (√50-7) with √13 So we get (√650-8√10) and (√650-7√13) Above solution can also be written as (√650-√640) and (√650-√637). Now it’s easier to compare. Hence √65 -8 ˂√50-7

Niraj Upadhyay - 6 years ago

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You multiplied each number by a different number, so how can you be sure from this method that your final inequality is not due to the multiplication. As an extremely exaggerated example, 2<3, but if I multiply 2 by 5 and 3 by 3, then I get 2 * 5=10 and 3 * 3=9 and 10>9. As far as I can tell, using the same logic as in your solution, this must mean 2>3. Please let me know if I missed a step in your solution.

Kunal Kantaria - 6 years ago

Could you explain why did you multiply by SQRT(10) and SQRT(13)? Is is like a LCM you are searching for?

Esteban Marin - 6 years ago

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Ya ! you are right.

Niraj Upadhyay - 6 years ago
Efren Medallo
Jun 1, 2015

First, we will assume that A > B A > B . Then, if that is true, then A B > 0 A - B >0 .

Thus,

65 50 8 + 7 > 0 \sqrt {65} - \sqrt {50} -8 + 7 > 0

65 50 > 1 \sqrt {65} - \sqrt {50} > 1

However, the inequality does not hold true on the left side. We know that 64 49 = 1 \sqrt {64} - \sqrt {49} = 1 , and an increment in the first radical will not yield a greater (or even an equal) increase with the same increment in the second radical. Thus, A > B A> B is false and we arrive at the fact that B > A B > A .

Moderator note:

Right! A better way to phrase it is that 1 = 64 49 > 64 50 > 1 1 = \sqrt{64} - \sqrt{49} > \sqrt{64} - \sqrt{50} > 1 which is a contradiction.

Hung Woei Neoh
Apr 9, 2016

Solution to Bonus: Generalize this A = 65 8 = 64 + 1 8 = 8 2 + 1 8 A = \sqrt{65} - 8 = \sqrt{64 + 1} - 8 = \sqrt{8^2 + 1} - 8 B = 50 7 = 49 + 1 7 = 7 2 + 1 7 B = \sqrt{50} - 7 = \sqrt{49 + 1} - 7 = \sqrt{7^2 + 1} - 7 Let n = 7 n = 7 and n + 1 = 8 n + 1 = 8 We have two equations shown: A = ( n + 1 ) 2 + 1 ( n + 1 ) A = \sqrt{(n + 1)^2 + 1} - (n + 1) B = n 2 + 1 n B = \sqrt{n^2 + 1} - n Rationalize B B , and you'll get: B = ( n 2 + 1 n ) ( n 2 + 1 + n ) ( n 2 + 1 + n ) B = \dfrac{(\sqrt{n^2 + 1} - n) (\sqrt{n^2 + 1} + n)}{(\sqrt{n^2 + 1} + n)} B = n 2 + 1 n 2 ( n 2 + 1 + n ) B = \dfrac{n^2 + 1 - n^2}{(\sqrt{n^2 + 1} + n)} B = 1 ( n 2 + 1 + n ) B = \dfrac{1}{(\sqrt{n^2 + 1} + n)} Do the same for A A (try it yourself, I'm too lazy to type out the steps) and you'll get: A = 1 ( n + 1 ) 2 + 1 + ( n + 1 ) A = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{(n + 1)^2 + 1} + (n + 1)} Now, for all positive n n values, you should be able to see that n 2 + 1 + n < ( n + 1 ) 2 + 1 + ( n + 1 ) \sqrt{n^2 + 1} + n < \sqrt{(n + 1)^2 + 1} + (n + 1) Therefore 1 n 2 + 1 + n > 1 ( n + 1 ) 2 + 1 + ( n + 1 ) \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{n^2 + 1} + n} > \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{(n + 1)^2 + 1} + (n + 1)} We can conclude the general rule n 2 + 1 n > ( n + 1 ) 2 + 1 ( n + 1 ) \boxed{\sqrt{n^2 + 1} - n > \sqrt{(n + 1)^2 + 1} - (n + 1)} for all positive n n values

For this question, we can use the general rule found to say that 50 7 > 65 8 \sqrt{50} - 7 > \sqrt{65} - 8 which gives B > A \boxed{B > A} Other examples that would follow this general rule: 82 9 > 101 10 \sqrt{82} - 9 > \sqrt{101} - 10 37 6 > 50 7 \sqrt{37} - 6 > \sqrt{50} - 7 5 2 > 10 3 \sqrt{5} - 2 > \sqrt{10} - 3

(+1) it explains them all.

Ashish Menon - 5 years ago
Krishna Sharma
Jun 1, 2015

Here's a different solution

I'll use the result

( 1 + x ) n 1 + n x , x 1 \displaystyle (1 + x)^n \approx 1 + nx, x \ll 1

Here

A = ( 64 + 1 ) 1 2 8 = 8 ( 1 + 1 64 ) 1 2 8 \displaystyle A = (64 + 1)^{\frac{1}{2}} - 8 = 8( 1 + \frac{1}{64})^{\frac{1}{2}} - 8

Taking power down to get

A = 8 ( 1 + 1 128 ) 8 = 1 16 A = 8( 1 + \frac{1}{128}) - 8 = \frac{1}{16}

Similar work for B

B = 7 ( 1 + 1 49 ) 1 2 7 = 1 14 B = 7(1 + \frac{1}{49})^{\frac{1}{2}} - 7 = \frac{1}{14}

Hence B > A B > A

Note that these value are close to original values but not equal to it.

Moderator note:

Not quite right. ( 1 + x ) n = 1 + n x (1 + x)^n = 1 + nx is not an identity. And you should mention the error terms for the binomial expansion of A A and B B .

Jake Lai
Jun 1, 2015

Mine is a graphical solution.

y = x y = \sqrt{x} is half a sideways parabola in the first quadrant. Notice that for positive real numbers a > b a > b the secant between x = a x = a and x = a + 1 x = a+1 is slightly gentler (less steep) than the secant between x = b x = b and x = b + 1 x = b+1 .

Since their width is equal ( = 1 =1 ) their heights must then be unequal. It's easy, then, to see that the difference a + 1 a < b + 1 b \sqrt{a+1}-\sqrt{a} < \sqrt{b+1}-\sqrt{b} .

Consider a = 64 a = 64 and b = 49 b = 49 . We can then say 64 + 1 64 = 65 8 < 50 7 = 49 + 1 49 \sqrt{64+1}-\sqrt{64} = \sqrt{65}-8 < \sqrt{50}-7 = \sqrt{49+1}-\sqrt{49} . This is equivalent to saying

B > A \boxed{B > A}

Moderator note:

But why is this true?

Notice that for positive real numbers a > b a > b the secant between x = a x = a and x = a + 1 x = a+1 is slightly gentler (less steep) than the secant between x = b x = b and x = b + 1 x = b+1 .

This is another graphical approach without actually drawing out the graph. There's a simpler approach to this problem: Hint: compare their conjugates.

You could draw out the sideways parabola and observe that the above statement is true for all a , b a,b .

Conjugate solution is also very elegant.

Note that a + 1 + a > b + 1 + b \sqrt{a+1}+\sqrt{a} > \sqrt{b+1}+\sqrt{b} . Since 1 x + 1 + x = x + 1 x \displaystyle \frac{1}{\sqrt{x+1}+\sqrt{x}} = \sqrt{x+1}-\sqrt{x} ,

a + 1 a = 1 a + 1 + a < 1 b + 1 + b = b + 1 b \sqrt{a+1}-\sqrt{a} = \frac{1}{\sqrt{a+1}+\sqrt{a}} < \frac{1}{\sqrt{b+1}+\sqrt{b}} = \sqrt{b+1}-\sqrt{b}

Jake Lai - 6 years ago

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Great work Jake Lai!

Bonus Question: What if a a and b b are negative real numbers, and a > b a>b


Consider the bonus question as my doubt, because I am always getting a + 1 a = b + 1 b \sqrt{a+1}-\sqrt{a} = \sqrt{b+1}-\sqrt{b} .

Sravanth C. - 6 years ago

A = 65 8 \sqrt{65} - 8 ; B = 50 7 \sqrt{50} - 7

Let's define a function : f(x) = x 2 + 1 x \sqrt{x^{2} + 1} - x

f'(x) = x x 2 + 1 1 = \dfrac{x}{\sqrt{x^{2} + 1}} - 1 and f'(x) < 0 x D o m a i n < 0 \quad \forall x \in Domain

\therefore f(x) is a decreasing function .

Hence we can conclude that f(7) > f(8) \implies B>A

Moderator note:

How is this true? Where's your working? What is this "domain" you speak of? Does this include complex numbers as well?

f'(x) = x x 2 + 1 1 = \dfrac{x}{\sqrt{x^{2} + 1}} - 1 and f'(x) < 0 x D o m a i n < 0 \quad \forall x \in Domain

If you're going for a calculus route, can you think of a simpler function to show that it's strictly decreasing in a certain interval?

And furthermore, can you generalize this?

A simpler, perhaps more natural function would be g ( x ) = x + 1 x g(x) = \sqrt{x+1}-\sqrt{x} . We can see that g ( x ) = 1 2 x + 1 1 2 x g'(x) = \frac{1}{2\sqrt{x+1}}-\frac{1}{2\sqrt{x}} ; this is clearly always negative. As such, we have g g monotonically decreasing over R + \mathbb{R}^{+} . The result follows.

Jake Lai - 6 years ago

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Thanks , I didn't think of it . I was in a hurry to write out a solution since Nihar was rushing me into it on Google Plus.

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I gave you time of almost 45 mins , so there was no hurry.

Nihar Mahajan - 6 years ago

I think you must respond to challenge master note. @Azhaghu Roopesh M .

Nihar Mahajan - 6 years ago

@ChallengeMaster

What working am I supposed to show ?

A simpler function would be what @Jake Lai has mentioned in his comment to this solution :

g ( x ) = x + 1 x g(x) = \sqrt{x+1}-\sqrt{x}

Bento Pereira
Jun 3, 2015

I'm working on a generalization, but for the moment my intuitive solution for this problem. First, let's analize the difference between the square of the numbers involved: 8 2 7 2 = 9 = ( 8 + 7 ) ( 8 7 ) 8^2-7^2=9=(8+7)*(8-7) . It becomes clear from that the difference between the square of two consecutive numbers grows as the numbers get bigger. Then, as the numbers get bigger, s q r t ( x 2 + 1 ) x sqrt(x^2+1)-x will become smaller (since it's "harder" for the square root to "reach" the next number, because the gap is much bigger). From that we can clearly see that s q r t ( 65 ) 8 sqrt(65)-8 will be smaller than s q r t ( 50 ) 7 sqrt(50)-7 . (I don't know how to write in LaTex, sorry about that).

Garrett Clarke
Jun 2, 2015

General Case:

√(x^2+1) > √((x-1)^2+1)

x > x-1

√(x^2+1) + x > √((x-1)^2+1) + (x-1)

1/(√(x^2+1) + x) < 1/(√((x-1)^2+1) + (x-1))

(√(x^2+1)-x)/(x^2+1-x^2) < (√((x-1)^2-1)-x)/((x-1)^2+1-(x-1)^2)

√(x^2+1) - x < √((x-1)^2+1) - (x-1)

Specific Example:

Let x = 8:

√(8^2+1) - 8 < √((8-1)^2+1) - (8-1)

√(65) - 8 < √(50) - 7

Pablo García
Jul 12, 2020

The square root grows slower when we have greater numbers. Since we know sqrt(64)=8 and sqrt(49)=7, we are looking for the distance between sqrt(49+1) and sqrt(49) and for the distance between sqrt(64+1) and sqrt(64). Because of my first sentence, the first distance must be greater than the second distance.

Here is yet another (albeit less elegant) solution that invokes calculus.

Since A = 8 2 + 1 8 A = \sqrt{8^2 + 1} - 8 and B = 7 2 + 1 7 B = \sqrt{7^2 + 1} - 7 , both A A and B B are of the form f ( n ) = n 2 + 1 n f(n) = \sqrt{n^2 + 1} - n . Differentiating f f with respect to n n , we find d f d n = n n 2 + 1 1 \frac{{\rm d}f}{{\rm d}n} = \frac{n}{\sqrt{n^2 + 1}} - 1 d f d n = 1 1 + 1 n 2 1. \frac{{\rm d}f}{{\rm d}n} = \frac{1}{\sqrt{1 + \frac{1}{n^2}}} - 1. Given positive n n , n 2 > 0 n^2 > 0 , so the denominator in the first term is always greater than one and d f d n < 0 \frac{{\rm d}f}{{\rm d}n} < 0 . In other words, f ( n ) f(n) takes on smaller and smaller values as n n increases. It follows that since 8 > 7 8 > 7 , 8 2 + 1 8 < 7 2 + 1 7 \sqrt{8^2 + 1} - 8 < \sqrt{7^2 + 1} - 7 .

Umer Younis
Jul 24, 2015

As we can tell ( 65=64+1, 50=49+1), we can tell easily that 50 is more close to being a perfect square( add 14) than 65( add 16). Hence the fractional part is greater in 50's case. i.e 1/14 > 1/16. hence B is greater than A.

Cup Cake
Jul 3, 2015

Let's forget about root sign for some time. Then, it is 50 and 65. The numbers are 1 more than the multiples( i.e. 49 and 65) . 7 is smaller so it will have larger deviation for multiple+1(50) than 8, multiple +1(65). So it is like big-small and small- big. Even if root sign is applied it will not make much difference.

Jeet Mody
Jun 6, 2015

I somehow find my solution easier than some solutions mentioned below (I'm sorry if somebody has posted a similar solution. I read top 3 and this was not there) So, as we know

  • 2 2 = 4 2^{2} = 4
  • 3 2 = 9 3^{2} = 9
  • 4 2 = 16 4^{2} = 16

So the difference between squares of 3 and 4 is more than the difference between squares of 2 and 3.

This trend is common for all numbers. We call this exponential rise. So, when comparing 65 \sqrt{65} and 50 \sqrt{50} , we can see that, from the above exponential growth knowledge, 65 \sqrt{65} will be closer to 8 than 50 \sqrt{50} will be from 7 as both are just one ahead of their perfect squares, but as we go higher, lesser is needed for a greater increase. So we will need a number nearer to 8 to get to 65 when compared to getting to 50 from 7. Hence A<B

Hey Jeet, we have similar approach 😊

My idea is to know 1 2 = 1 , 2 2 = 4 , 3 2 = 9 , 4 2 = 16 , 5 2 = 25 1^{2}=1, 2^{2}=4, 3^{2}=9, 4^{2}=16, 5^{2}=25 From those result of square, we get a pattern: 1 , 4 , 9 , 16 , 25 1, 4, 9, 16, 25 From that pattern, we see the space between numbers is getting bigger:
2 , 4 , 6 , 8 2, 4, 6, 8

What's the space pattern for?

I'll give you an illustration: 1 4 9 16 \sqrt{1} • • \sqrt{4} • • • • \sqrt{9}••••••\sqrt{16} And if I convert itu numbers: 1 ( 1.3 ) ( 1.6 ) 2 ( 2.2 ) ( 2.4 ) ( 2.6 ) ( 2.8 ) 3 ( 3.1 ) ( 3.3 ) ( 3.4 ) ( 3.6 ) ( 3.7 ) ( 3.9 ) 4 1 (1.3) (1.6) 2 (2.2) (2.4) (2.6) (2.8) 3 (3.1) (3.3) (3.4) (3.6) (3.7) (3.9) 4

We can see that the dot's gap between 1 t o 2 \sqrt{1} to \sqrt{2} is wider than 4 t o 5 \sqrt{4} to \sqrt{5} Ex: 5 4 ? 2 1 \sqrt{5}-\sqrt{4} ? \sqrt{2}-\sqrt{1} 2.2 2 ? 1.3 1 2.2-2 ? 1.3-1 0.2 < 0.3 0.2 < 0.3

Based on the pattern in illustration, we can conclude that the delta between square root is decreasing as the number of square root is rising.

So, B is bigger.

Archil Patel
Jun 6, 2015

The greater the number ,the greater the rate at which it increases when squared. Same case with roots root of lower number can have more decimal value than higher value when the difference is same.

Thomas Paul
Jun 5, 2015

Squaring and adding both the equations we get, A(square) = 14B-16A since A(Square) is positive, 14B>16A or 7B>8A. It is obvious that B should be greater since 8 is grater than 7.

Mir Abid
Jun 4, 2015

▲y = dy/dx * ▲x Checking 65^1/2 Y = X^1/2

X = 64 ▲X = 1

Dy/dx = 1/ 2x^1/2 = 1/(2 * 64^1/2 ) = 1/16 = 0.06

THEREFORE Y + ▲Y =( X + ▲X)^1/2 65^1/2 = 8 + 1/16 = 8.06

Similarly for 50^1/2 THE VALUE COMES OUT TO BE = 7.07

A = 8.06-8 = .06 B = 7.07-7 = .07

THEREFORE B>A

In case of 65^2, the remainder 1 requires to be divided by 16 whereas incase of 50^2,the remainder to be divided by 14. So the figure beyond decimal in B is greater than A.

Hariom Narang
Jun 2, 2015

The difference between 7 & 8 & 9 is 1 each

However differce between 49(7 squared) and 64(8 squared) is 15 And the differnce between 64 & 81 is 17

That is the difference between 7 squared and 8 squared is less than that between 8 and 9

So √65= √(64+1) can be thought of having 1 unit as 1/17 nd √50=√(49+1) has 1 as 1/15

1/17<1/15 So √65 is less farther from 8 then √50 is from 7

Therefore √(65-1) < √(50-1)

Niraj Upadhyay
Jun 1, 2015

Given to compare: √65 -8, √50-7

Lets multiply, (√65 -8) with √10 and (√50-7) with √13

So we get (√650-8√10) and (√650-7√13)

Above solution can also be written as (√650-√640) and (√650-√637).

Now it’s easier to compare. Hence √65 -8 ˂√50-7.

Moderator note:

You have only shown that 10 ( 65 8 ) < 13 ( 50 7 ) \sqrt{10}(\sqrt{65} - 8) < \sqrt{13} (\sqrt{50} - 7) .

It does not determine whether ( 65 8 ) < ( 50 7 ) (\sqrt{65} - 8) < (\sqrt{50} - 7) is true or not.

Brian Riccardi
Jun 1, 2015

My solution is more "empirical".

We know that:

  • 64 < 65 < 81 64 < 65 < 81
  • 49 < 50 < 64 49 < 50 < 64

The differences between the central part and the left part of each inequality are equals to 1: let call that absolute difference σ \sigma .

But our intervals are not the same:

  • I A = ( 64 , 81 ) I_A = (64,81)
  • I B = ( 49 , 64 ) I_B = (49,64)

So there are two relative differences:

  • ϵ A = σ I A \epsilon_A = \frac { \sigma }{ I_A }
  • ϵ B = σ I B \epsilon_B = \frac { \sigma }{ I_B }

Obviously ϵ A < ϵ B \epsilon_A < \epsilon_B , thus 65 8 < 50 7 \sqrt{65} - 8 < \sqrt{50} - 7 .

Moderator note:

I don't follow your logic. Why must we set 81 81 and 64 64 as the upper bound of the intervals? I could have I A = ( 64 , 100 ) , I B = ( 49 , 51 ) I_A = (64,100), I_B = (49,51) as well.

I think that he adeed these limits as they are the equivalent of adding 1 in the roots

Mohamed Wafik - 6 years ago

Because I started bounding from the roots and then I squared the entire interval.:)

Brian Riccardi - 6 years ago

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