Balls And Bags

You are given an bag filled with 20 red balls, 30 white balls and 40 blue balls. You decide to randomly take 15 balls out of the bag without replacement. What is the probability that the last ball you draw from the bag will be a red ball?

If the answer can be written in the form p q \dfrac{p}{q} , where p p and q q are relatively prime, submit your answer as p + q p+q .


The answer is 11.

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7 solutions

Stewart Gordon
Oct 9, 2015

There are 90! possible orders in which the individual balls can be drawn. Of these, there are 20 × 89 ! 20 \times 89! possible sequences in which the 15th ball is red, 30 × 89 ! 30 \times 89! sequences in which it's white and 40 × 89 ! 40 \times 89! in which it's blue. This probability distribution is the same whether we are looking at the 1st ball drawn, the 15th ball drawn, the 90th ball drawn or any other.

The total number of sequences is not changed by changing the order in which balls are drawn.

@Stewart Gordon Great solution. I like it and have converted your comment into this solution. If you subscribe to comments, you will be notified when people respond.

Calvin Lin Staff - 5 years, 8 months ago
Helen Bergstrom
Oct 9, 2015

You don't need to do any complex combinatorics to solve this problem, because there's a very simple symmetry argument here. Label the balls 1 through 90. For every ball i=1,2,3...90, the probability that you draw ball i on the 15th draw is 1/90.

There are 20 balls that are red. Whatever numbers i these have, each of these red balls -- like every ball -- has probability 1/90 of being drawn on the 15th draw. Thus the probability that the 15th draw is a red ball is 20/90.

Garrett Clarke
Sep 18, 2015

Incredibly, the probability of drawing any color ball after n n balls are drawn is the same as the probability of drawing that color ball WITH replacement! The probability of drawing a red ball on the n n th draw with replacement is 20 90 = 2 9 \frac{20}{90}=\frac{2}{9} , therefore our answer must be 2 + 9 = 11 2+9=\boxed{11} .

I don't think that this is a good way of understanding probability. It makes it seem "Wow I'm supposed to know this magical fact which seems to violate my understanding of probability in other cases".

Calvin Lin Staff - 5 years, 8 months ago

Hi Garrett. I have a doubt. In the question it's mentioned "without replacement" then why are you considering "with replacement". I think for "with replacement" the answer should be (90P14 / 90P15) * (6/76+7/76+8/76+....+20/76) = (1/76)*(195/76) = 0.033 (approx.) Please correct me if I am wrong.

R Ady - 5 years, 8 months ago

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If you draw a ball from the bag, put it back, and repeat this process 13 times, then at the end of this sequence all 90 balls are in the bag. So why would the probability distribution of the next ball drawn be any different from what it was if you hadn't yet touched the contents of the bag?

Stewart Gordon - 5 years, 8 months ago

Sir,can u please show the proof?

Shyambhu Mukherjee - 5 years, 8 months ago

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There are 90! possible orders in which the individual balls can be drawn. Of these, there are 20 × 89 ! 20 \times 89! possible sequences in which the 15th ball is red, 30 × 89 ! 30 \times 89! sequences in which it's white and 40 × 89 ! 40 \times 89! in which it's blue. This probability distribution is the same whether we are looking at the 1st ball drawn, the 15th ball drawn, the 90th ball drawn or any other.

Stewart Gordon - 5 years, 8 months ago

There is a one-to-one correspondence between the sequences of balls drawn and their reversed order. The total number of sequences is not changed by reversing the order in which balls are drawn.

Another way to look at it is that if you don't get to see the other balls drawn, then the distribution of the last ball and the first ball must be identical. Certainly if you are told that the first ball drawn is red, then that changes the distribution.

Satyen Nabar - 5 years, 8 months ago

By way of support for this statement, consider the simpler questions what the probability is that the second ball is red.

P ( B 2 = r ) = P ( B 2 = r B 1 = r ) P ( B 1 = r ) + P ( B 2 = r B 1 r ) P ( B 1 r ) P(B_2 = r) = P(B_2 = r | B_1 = r) P(B_1 = r) + P(B_2 = r | B_1 \neq r) P(B_1 \neq r) = 19 89 × 20 90 + 20 90 × ( 1 20 90 ) = \frac{19}{89}\times\frac{20}{90} + \frac{20}{90}\times\left(1-\frac{20}{90}\right) = ( 20 1 ) 20 + 20 ( 90 20 ) 89 90 = \frac{(20-1)\cdot 20 + 20\cdot(90-20)}{89\cdot 90} = 89 20 89 90 = 20 90 . = \frac{89\cdot 20}{89\cdot 90} = \frac{20}{90}.

This shows that drawing the first ball does not affect the probabilities of the second ball as long as we know nothing about the outcome of the first draw . This can easily be generalized: drawing without replacement has the same probabilities as drawing with replacement, as long as we do not attempt to draw more balls than there are present.

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 5 years, 8 months ago

I am locked from pasting via insert picture at here.

Lu Chee Ket - 5 years, 8 months ago
Alan Yan
Oct 8, 2015

If you didn't find Garrett Clarke 's slick and effortless solution, you still could've solved it. Here is another solution that does not involve with replacement.

Notice that white and blue are arbitrary so we can include them as just one color. Let's call this color grey. Therefore there are 20 red balls and 70 grey balls.

We do casework on the number of red balls.

1 red ball: ( 14 0 ) 70 69 . . . 57 20 = ( 14 0 ) 70 ! 56 ! 20 ! 19 ! {14 \choose 0}70 \cdot 69 \cdot ... \cdot 57 \cdot 20 = {14 \choose 0} \frac{70!}{56!} \cdot \frac{20!}{19!}

2 red balls: ( 14 1 ) 70 69 68 . . . 58 20 19 = ( 14 1 ) 70 ! 57 ! 20 ! 18 ! {14 \choose 1}70 \cdot 69 \cdot 68 \cdot ... \cdot 58 \cdot 20 \cdot 19 = {14 \choose 1} \frac{70!}{57!} \cdot \frac{20!}{18!}

\vdots

15 red balls: ( 14 14 ) 20 19... 6 = ( 14 14 ) 70 ! 70 ! 20 ! 5 ! {14 \choose 14} 20 \cdot 19 ... \cdot 6 = {14 \choose 14}\frac{70!}{70!} \cdot \frac{20!}{5!}

Thus the total number of ways is A = ( 14 0 ) 70 ! 56 ! 20 ! 19 ! + ( 14 1 ) 70 ! 57 ! 20 ! 18 ! + . . . + ( 14 14 ) 70 ! 70 ! 20 ! 5 ! = 70 ! 20 ! 75 ! ( ( 14 0 ) ( 75 19 ) + ( 14 1 ) ( 75 18 ) + . . . + ( 14 14 ) ( 75 5 ) ) = 70 ! 20 ! 75 ! B \begin{aligned} A & = {14 \choose 0}\frac{70!}{56!} \cdot \frac{20!}{19!} + {14 \choose 1}\frac{70!}{57!} \cdot \frac{20!}{18!} + ... + {14 \choose 14}\cdot\frac{70!}{70!} \cdot \frac{20!}{5!} \\ & = \frac{70! \cdot 20!}{75!}\left({14 \choose 0}{75 \choose 19} + {14 \choose 1}{75 \choose 18} + ... + {14 \choose 14}{75 \choose 5}\right)\\ & = \frac{70! \cdot 20!}{75!}B \end{aligned}

Now we are stuck, how do we simplify B B ? Before we expand the binomial coefficients, let's analyze the sum. Notice that if we have 14 14 boys and 75 75 girls , B B is just the number of ways to form a subcommittee of 19 people. However, this is equivalent to B = ( 14 + 75 19 ) = ( 89 19 ) B = {14 + 75 \choose 19} = {89 \choose 19} .

Therefore, A = 70 ! 20 ! 74 ! ( 89 19 ) = 70 ! 20 ! 89 ! 19 ! 70 ! 75 ! = 20 89 ! 75 ! \begin{aligned} A & = \frac{70! \cdot 20!}{74!}{89 \choose 19} = \frac{70! \cdot 20! \cdot 89!}{19! \cdot 70! \cdot 75!} = \frac{20 \cdot 89!}{75!} \end{aligned}

We know that the total number of ways to pick 15 is C = 90 89 . . . 76 = 90 ! 75 ! C = 90 \cdot 89 \cdot ... \cdot 76 = \frac{90!}{75!} .

Therefore the probability is just A C \frac{A}{C} . A C = 20 89 ! 75 ! 90 ! 75 ! = 20 90 = 2 9 p + q = 11 \begin{aligned} \frac{A}{C} & = \frac{\frac{20 \cdot 89!}{75!}}{\frac{90!}{75!}} = \frac{20}{90} = \frac{2}{9} \implies p+q = \boxed{11} \end{aligned}

However this solution is long and the most desirable solution is noticing that counting with replacement keeps the probability the same.

I disagree with "most desirable solution is noticing that counting with replacement keeps the probability the same", because that merely states the observation without providing any explanation for why it's true other than that it's true. It's like saying " Oh wow, 2 + 2 = 2 × 2 2 + 2 = 2 \times 2 ". It would have been better if we explained either
1. Because multiplication is repeated addition OR
2. Because they are both numerically equal to 4

Calvin Lin Staff - 5 years, 8 months ago

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I wasn't referring to his "written" solution but the general concept behind it: not brute-forcing it but finding an easier way to calculate the desired answer.

Alan Yan - 5 years, 8 months ago

Whatever ball that we draw, it is random and we do not necessarily know the color of the ball that we have drawn, we are only dealing with the 15th ball. Since by drawing the balls, we do not gain any new information on the color of the ball, the probability of drawing a red ball will remain the same throughout which is 20 90 \frac{20}{90} = 2 9 \frac{2}{9}

Naman Wahi
Oct 26, 2015

I got the right answer by calculating the expected number of red balls after 14 were taken out. The expected number of reds taken out was therefore 14 * 2 9 \frac{2}{9} = 28 9 \frac{28}{9} . This means the expected number of red balls left is 20- 28 9 \frac{28}{9} = 152 9 \frac{152}{9} . so the probability of getting a red ball for the last draw is 152 9 \frac{152}{9} divided by (90-14) which is 2 9 \frac{2}{9}

Divide the process in two steps: First, grab 15 balls at random. Then put these balls in random order.

Originally the frequency of red balls is 2 / 9 2/9 , The sample of 15 balls has the same expected value for the frequency of red balls.

Given a random order, the probability that the last ball is red is equal to the expected value for the frequency of red balls.

Thus the answer is 2 / 9 2/9 , or 11 \boxed{11} .

Its wrong the sentence said that prob. of 15th ball is red without replacement means red ball can be drawn before 15th any time hence ans should be (6/76 + 7/76 + 8/76 + ..................+20/76 = 195/76 ) means 195+76=271

Manik Chand - 5 years, 8 months ago

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