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Algebra Level 2

If y 2 4 y = x 2 4 x , y^2 -4y = x^2 - 4x, then does it necessarily follow that y = x ? y= x?

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19 solutions

Efren Medallo
May 6, 2017

Rearranging the terms, we get

x 2 y 2 4 x + 4 y = 0 x^2 - y^2 - 4x + 4y =0

( x y ) ( x + y ) 4 ( x y ) = 0 (x-y)(x+y) - 4(x-y)=0

( x y ) ( x + y 4 ) = 0 (x-y)(x+y-4)=0

So, it may be either

x = y x = y

Or

x + y = 4 x + y = 4

Moderator note:

This problem is very similar to one two weeks ago in that it attempts to trick the solver into thinking free variables are bound variables.

Best possible answer!

Ankita Nawani - 4 years ago

How did you get the term (x-y) (x+y-4) = 0

محمد قيس - 4 years, 1 month ago

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It is a consequence of the distributive property of multiplication over addition. Since ( x y ) (x-y) is a common factor to both ( x + y ) ( x y ) (x+y)(x-y) and 4 ( x y ) -4(x-y) , we can factor it out and that's the result.

Efren Medallo - 4 years ago

2 is my favorite solution!

Bill Snyder - 4 years ago
Tony Durran
May 11, 2017

Y = 4 and X = 0, or vice versa.

Isaac there are an infinite number of solutions.

Dinah DeMoss - 4 years ago

See above - it works for all values x+y=4

Andy Boal - 4 years ago

There are other solutions (for example x=3 and y=1).

Isaac Larachunsky - 4 years ago

Exactly: I just set x = 0 (for simplicity) and got y = 4; one counterexample suffices. Others have way over-complicated this

Albert Kirsch - 4 years ago

Same conclusion - keep it simple. Using 0 for LHS kept problem simple then solved RHS x^2 = 4x.

Timothy Cole - 4 years ago
Arjen Vreugdenhil
May 13, 2017

Transform coordinates to x = x 2 x' = x -2 , y = y 2 y' = y-2 . Then we get [ ( y ) 2 + 4 y + 4 ] 4 [ y + 2 ] = [ ( x ) 2 + 4 x + 4 ] 4 [ x + 2 ] ( y ) 2 + 4 y + 4 4 y 8 = ( x ) 2 + 4 x + 4 4 x 8 ( y ) 2 4 = ( x ) 2 4 ( y ) 2 = ( x ) 2 y = x . \left[(y')^2 + 4y' + 4\right] - 4\left[y' + 2\right] = \left[(x')^2 + 4x' + 4\right] - 4\left[x' + 2\right] \\ (y')^2 + 4y' + 4 - 4y' - 8 = (x')^2 + 4x' + 4 - 4x' - 8 \\ (y')^2 - 4 = (x')^2 - 4 \\ (y')^2 = (x')^2 \\ |y'| = |x'|. It follows that either y = x y = x or y 2 = ( x 2 ) y-2 = -(x-2) , i.e. y = 4 x y = 4-x . When plotted, the solution consists of two crossing lines, at 4 5 45^\circ to the coordinate axes, intersecting in the point (2,2).

Unexpected approach. Nice

Mritunjay Mehta - 4 years ago

Why did you reduce only to add the squares back?

Jamie Pardasie - 4 years ago

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I don't quite understand what you mean. Perhaps I showed to many steps? Here is the same approach in shorter notation:

( y 2 ) 2 4 = ( x 2 ) 2 4 , (y-2)^2 - 4 = (x-2)^2 - 4, ( y 2 ) 2 = ( x 2 ) 2 , (y-2)^2 = (x-2)^2, y 2 = x 2 . |y-2| = |x-2|.

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 4 years ago

It is correct that x=y is correct (the question was not if x=y was the ONLY solution but if x=y WAS a solution and, of course, it is a solution.

Zach Cox - 4 years ago

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No, it asked if it was necessarily true that x = y x = y if the equation is satisfied. The answer is: no; for instance, if x = 3 x = 3 and y = 1 y = 1 then 3 2 4 3 = 3 = 1 2 4 1 , 3^2 - 4\cdot 3 = -3 = 1^2 - 4\cdot 1, yet x y x \not = y .

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 4 years ago
Rahil Sehgal
May 21, 2017

We can prove the given statement ( x = y ) (x=y) false by giving any example.

Example 1:- x = 1 , y = 3 x=1, y=3

Example 2:- x = 0 , y = 4 x=0,y=4 .

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Proof for this:- We can prove it simply by factorising the equation which will provide us with x = y x=y or x + y = 4 x+y=4 .

Yes, finding one counter-example is sufficient to disprove the statement. How did you find x + y = 4 x+y=4 ?

Christopher Boo - 4 years ago

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x 2 y 2 4 x + 4 y = 0 x^2 - y^2 - 4x + 4y =0 ( x y ) ( x + y ) 4 ( x y ) = 0 (x-y)(x+y) - 4(x-y)=0 ( x y ) ( x + y 4 ) = 0 (x-y)(x+y-4)=0 x + y = 4 \implies x + y = 4

Rahil Sehgal - 4 years ago

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That's neat. You should add it to your solution :)

Christopher Boo - 4 years ago
Rick Montgomery
May 26, 2017

Quadratic formula to the rescue!

The quadratic formula states that if a x 2 + b x + c = 0 ax^{2} + bx + c = 0 , then x = b ± b 2 4 a c 2 a x = \frac{-b ± \sqrt{b^{2} - 4ac}}{2a} .

Since y 2 4 x = x 2 4 x y^{2} - 4x = x^{2} - 4x , there is a number k k such that y 2 4 y + k = 0 y^{2} -4y + k = 0 and x 2 4 x + k = 0 x^{2} -4x + k = 0

Thus the quadratic formula can be used to solve for x x or y y in terms of k k .

Assigning values of 1, -4, and k k to a a , b b , and c c in the quadratic formula, we find that x or y can have either of two values,

4 + 16 4 k 2 \frac {4 + \sqrt{16 -4k}}{2} or 4 16 4 k 2 \frac {4 - \sqrt{16 -4k}}{2}

thus there are two possible values for y and the same two possible values for x.

Nice work.

Assuming you know the cubic formula, would your method still work if we replace y 2 4 y = x 2 4 x y^2-4y = x^2-4x to y 3 4 y = x 3 4 x y^3-4y = x^3 -4x ?

Pi Han Goh - 4 years ago
Mel Maron
May 25, 2017

Add 4 to both sides to get ( y 2 ) 2 = ( x 2 ) 2 (y - 2)^{2} = (x - 2)^{2} . This is satisfied by any real numbers x , y x,y that are equidistant from 2. L a T e X LaTeX

It's good to identify that completing the square is helpful here.

Bonus: Must x and y be real numbers? What if at least one of them is non-real, would the answer still be "false"?

Pi Han Goh - 4 years ago

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Yes. Take x = 2+z and y = 2-z, where z is any complex number.

Mel Maron - 3 years, 11 months ago

This was my approach. Seems similar to but simpler than the variable substitution method above.

Sean McCloskey - 4 years ago
John Williamson
May 24, 2017

Another way to look at this equation is to complete the square on both sides, which is possible in this case because we add the same value to both sides of the equation, keeping the equation equal:

 y^2 - 4y + 4 = x^2 - 4x + 4

(y-2)^2 = (x-2)^2

For the next step, we can temporarily imagine the equation: a² = b² and remember that in this case, a and b can be either positive or negative.

|y - 2| = |x - 2|

Once we realize this, it is obvious that the answer to this question is No , even before we identify what the values must be:

We already know that this squared equation is true when (y-2) = (x-2) so let's look at the other equation:

y - 2 = -(x - 2)

y - 2 = 2 - x

y = 4 - x

This allows us to find solution pairs (0, 4) and (2, 2)

BUT if we ignore this step, and instead look at pairs of values where |y-2| = |x-2|, we find an infinite number of solutions:

|y-2| = z       |x-2| = z

2 - y = z        x - 2 = z

y = 2 - z       x = 2 + z

z    x    y    (x² - 4x)    (y² - 4x)
0    2    2        -8              -8
1    3    1        -3              -3
2    4    0         0               0
3    5    -1        ?               ?
4    6    -2        ?               ?
etc.

After all of this work, I realized that there was a very simple method to find these pairs of numbers:

  1. Graph *f(x) = x² - 4x *

  2. Draw any horizontal line that passes through both legs of the parabola

  3. Define the coordinates for each point

  4. Your points are (x, ?) and (y, ?)

In this parabola, I have marked two pairs of points that illustrate that there are many answers. x=-1, y=5; and x=0, y=4

This is a very detailed explanation. Wonderfully written.

Note that your solution simplifies to

If the absolute value of X X is equal to the absolute value of Y Y , does it mean that X X must be equal to Y Y ?

Pi Han Goh - 4 years ago

thanks for your reply. I appreciate the compliment.

John Williamson - 3 years, 11 months ago
Jonathan Dapadap
May 23, 2017

We start by giving a COUNTER EXAMPLE. one possible counter example is when y=x+1.

We need to prove that the counter example (x+1,y) will be true to the equation y^2 - 4y = x^2 - 4x.

Let's substitute x+1 to y:

(x+1)^2 - 4(x+1) = x^2 - 4x. Simplify.

x^2 + 2x + 1 - 4x - 4 = x^2 - 4x. Simplify furthermore.

2x - 3 = 0, then we have,

x = 3/2. so,

if x = 3/2, then y=5/2.

Substitute the solution (3/2, 5/2).

(3/2)^2 - 4(3/2) = (5/2)^2 - 4(5/2).

Then simplify one side at a time.

(5/2)^2 - 4(5/2) = -15/4,

(3/2)^2 - 4(3/2) = -15/4

And so, -15/4 = -15/4

We have prove a COUNTER EXAMPLE. Therefore, it doesn't necessarily follow that y=x if y^2 - 4y = x^2 - 4x. I'M DONE. THANKS FOR THIS PROBLEM.

Leo Chen
May 22, 2017

From the quadratic formula we know that Δ = b 2 4 a c \Delta =b^2-4ac and by using this formula we will find out that Δ > 0 \Delta>0 . Which means that there will be two roots. And therefore, it does not necessarily follow.

Does this mean that if we replace y 2 4 y = x 2 4 x y^2-4y = x^2-4x by y 3 4 y = x 3 3 x y^3 - 4y = x^3 - 3x , the answer would still be false (by using discriminant)?

Pi Han Goh - 4 years ago
Rocco Dalto
May 22, 2017

y 2 4 y = x 2 4 x y^2 - 4y = x^2 - 4x \implies ( y 2 ) 2 = ( x 2 ) 2 (y - 2)^2 = (x - 2)^2 \implies y = ± ( x 2 ) + 2 y = \pm(x - 2) + 2 \implies y = x , y = 4 x y = x, y = 4 - x

Checking y = 4 x y = 4 - x we obtain:

( 4 x ) 2 ( 4 x ) = 16 8 x + x 2 16 + 4 x = x 2 4 x . (4 - x)^2 - (4 - x) = 16 - 8x + x^2 - 16 + 4x = x^2 - 4x.

y = 4 x \therefore y = 4 - x is the other solution.

Avik Das
May 22, 2017

If we can get an​ example then we have done it. so the example is x=0 and y=4.

You are right. Having just one example is sufficient to disprove the statement!

Christopher Boo - 4 years ago

Absolutely. Others seem to have way over complicated the solution to this. By assigning the first positive integer to x=1 it is immediately apparent that y=1 OR 3. Further examples and calculations reveal that x=y or x + y=4 making the possibilities for x and y values infinite.

Anthony Mark - 4 years ago

y^2 -4y = x^2 -4x

y^2 -x^2 = 4y -4x

(y+x) (y-x) = 4(y-x)

Asuming that y is not equal to x, we can divide each part of the ecuation by (y-x), so that we get the following: y+x = 4

Conclusion: with y=3 and x=1 or y=4 and x=0, the first ecuation is correct so it is not necessary that x is equal to y.

Vadela Chopra
May 26, 2017

This equation is quadratic i.e. it is degree 2. Hence it must have two answers for x and two answers for y

But how do you know that the roots cannot be repeated?

Pi Han Goh - 4 years ago

(x,y)=(0,4) or (x,y)=(4,0) can be satisfied the equation.

Joe Hillman
May 26, 2017

This problem just needs to know if a variable squared minus 4 times that variable has more than one solution. So using the quadratic equation determinant formula, 2 real solutions as (b^2-4ac)= 16-4 is positive.

Or, as there are no constants, zero is a solution and four is a solution to make the two terms equal and cancel out each other.

But if you add 4 to both sides of the equation first, then (b^2-4ac = 0), this implies that there is only one (distinct) root. What's wrong with this?

Pi Han Goh - 4 years ago
Max H
May 25, 2017

If you factor out a variable from each side you get y(y-4)= x(x-4). If y is 0, then that side is 0, but if x we're 4 then that side is also 0 or vice Versa.

Yes, and this means x y x\neq y . In particular, they can be anything as long as x + y = 4 x+y=4 or x = y x=y .

Christopher Boo - 4 years ago
Paul Jackson
May 25, 2017

Try the same question with this one x^y = x^y

I don't see how the equation x y = y x x^y=y^x is related to this problem. Mind elaborating?

Christopher Boo - 4 years ago
Nicolás Wirth
May 25, 2017

Completing the square on both sides: ( y 2 ) 2 4 = ( x 2 ) 2 4 (y-2)^2-4=(x-2)^2-4

Both sides of the equation are quadratic functions with a vertex at ( 2 , 4 ) (2,-4)

Therefore equations are equal so long as: 2 y = x 2 2-y = x-2 or y = x y = x

David Schweitzer
May 23, 2017

People are getting really bogged down in "algebraic computational nonsense." Factor both sides to get y(y-4) = x(x-4)

There, now you have two products of two numbers set equal to each other. We can clearly see that both sides can be made positive and have the Y be positive and large enough so we have a product of two positives is positive, then make the X negative and get a product of two negatives is also positive.

There. You don't need to use so much number-crunching power to derive closed-form solutions. Just demonstrate a simple property holds that invalidates the necessity argument.

How do you derive x y x\neq y from this?

Christopher Boo - 4 years ago

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