16 of 100: What Happens?

A man stuck in a small sailboat on a perfectly calm lake throws a stone overboard. It sinks to the bottom of the lake.

When the water again settles to a perfect calm, is the water level in the lake higher, lower, or in the same place compared to where it was before the stone was cast in?

This problem is a classic. It's very tricky, but there's a clever way to use limits to find and understand the answer intuitively!

The water level is lower. The water level rises. The water level stays the same.

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22 solutions

Zandra Vinegar Staff
Jun 15, 2017

A Solution Using Limits

The rock sinks, therefore it is denser than water, but few people have good intuition for using that knowledge to guess at what will happen when the stone is cast out of the boat.

So, instead of dealing with small forces and slight changes that we don't have strong intuition for, consider the limiting case where the stone is much, much denser than water: imagine it as a tiny pebble that weighs several tons! When it's in the boat, the boat would be pulled deeply into the water, pushing the shoreline up as the water is displaced by the boat.

Then, when the stone is thrown overboard, the boat rises in the water because the weight of the stone is no longer pulling it down. Meanwhile, the stone sinks to the bottom of the lake and displaces only a small volume of water.

In summary, the stone displaces far more water when it's in the boat, pulling it down, compared to the amount of water it displaces when resting on the bottom of the lake. Therefore, when the stone is thrown out of the boat, the shoreline lowers. Relaxing the limit: this logic holds so long as the stone is denser than water. We know it is denser than water because it sinks.

It does not matter how big the stone in this scenario is, so long as it's denser than water. When the stone is in the boat, the extra amount of water displaced by the boat pushing down is equal in mass to the mass of the stone. When the stone is thrown into the water and sinks, the amount of water displaced is equal in volume to the volume of the stone. How large and dense the rock is will determine the magnitude of the effect, but so long as the rock is denser than water, the shoreline will lower some amount when the rock is tossed out.

I like the solution but I wouldn't say it uses limits. Rather, it uses an extreme example. While certainly valid (and illustrative in this case), using an extreme example is not what I would expect when I see an instruction to "use limits".

Richard Desper - 3 years, 11 months ago

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A valid point! I guess I think about it as a limit because my 'mental image' is of a normal stone getting denser and denser and denser.

My story & visualization in detail: I've been tasked with carrying a mysterious ancient artifact across a lake - it just looks like a normal stone, and there's no trouble at first. However, when we're exactly in the middle of the lake... it starts changing, somehow growing heavier and heaver without changing size. And as the stone gets denser, the boat gets pulled more and more deeply into the water, as if someone were pushing it down into the lake. I and whoever else is on the boat with me scramble to build up the sides of the boat higher and higher so that water can't start rushing in. Then eventually someone shouts, "we've run out of wood! You have to throw it over!" So we heave the stone over the lip of the boat, and the boat pops up like a cork. And, as this happens, I look at the water level in the lake. I usually think of it as a very small lake, almost like a giant test-tube that our cork-boat is in. With the stone thrown overboard, all of the water displaced by the boat drops back into place. The water falls as the boat pops up.

Zandra Vinegar Staff - 3 years, 11 months ago

Or, if you'd prefer to think about it abstractly, consider the buoyancy and conservation formulae used to model this scenario. Our goal is to discern the relative volumes of the amount of water displaced:

The amount of water displaced when the stone is in the boat ( = , , ? ) The amount of water displaced when the stone is in the water \frac{\text{The amount of water displaced}}{\text{when the stone is } \color{#EC7300}{\text{in the boat}}} (=, \leq, \geq ? ) \frac{\text{The amount of water displaced}}{\text{when the stone is }\color{#3D99F6}{\text{in the water}}}

However, in truth, we don't need to fully set up these equations, we need only find, from among all of the variables in the scenario, those unknowns which, when varied, affect the two sides of this equation differently (including those which affect only one side). On the LHS, I found that the weight of the stone was this property, and similarly, the volume of the stone was the important property on the RHS. Then I used the intuitive limit that I described above to understand the roles that these two properties must play in the equation, finding that as the density of the rock decreases towards 0, the shoreline rises, and as the density of the rock increase towards \infty , the shoreline lowers.

In truth, at this point I looked at the teacher who first proposed this problem to me and asked, "Is the rock denser or less dense than water?" and, in return, he made a funny face at me. :) But, in my version of the problem, I specified that the rock sinks. Therefore, you know that that the density of the rock must be at least somewhat greater than the density of water.

Zandra Vinegar Staff - 3 years, 12 months ago

Are the questions on brilliant 100 days challenge too easy compare to normal brilliant problems??

Aniswar S K - 3 years, 12 months ago

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If you check the actual level of the problems under the empty solution box, you should notice that. :D

Michael Huang - 3 years, 11 months ago

OK, So let me get this straight: The rock on the boat displaces the boat an amount equal to it's mass. Why it's mass? Because the rock's mass is being pulled down by gravity (?). However, when cast out, when the rock sinks, it will displace the water such that it is slightly higher, because the water displaced will equivalent to the stone's volume. When on the boat, weight is what matters, and thus density is a key factor. When on the sea, volume determines displacement, and thus, density is once again a key factor, but so is the volume.

Refath Bari - 3 years, 11 months ago

@Zandra Vinegar , I think it is better if the question states the level of the water relative to the boat right? Because if it is relative to the observer in land, the level of the water after a stone is thrown is intuitively stay the same (rises a bit, depending on the volume of the water and the stone).

James Pohadi - 3 years, 11 months ago

I don't understand this part. I got a cup, filled it with water, and when I dropped a small rock inside the cup, it rose. How is this a different event?

Anshul Gupta - 3 years, 11 months ago

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But the thing is that we have a boat in this situation. The act of throwing the rock off the boat will a) propel the boat in the opposite direction slightly, and also make the boat lighter, and thus make it rise.

Refath Bari - 3 years, 11 months ago

But what would happen if density of stone is << density of water? Then level of water would have risen. There are volcanic stones which can float in water. So what about them? So I say the sum cannot be done untill the density of the stone is given. Please help me

Swapan Das - 3 years, 11 months ago

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Although the density of the rock is not given, the question states that the rock sinks to the bottom of the lake. It shows that density of rock is larger than the density of water.

Legato Chu - 3 years, 2 months ago

Oho that explains it

Amy Grayson - 3 years, 10 months ago

Got this wrong, but your extreme case with the pebble weighing tons reset my intuition, thanks!

Andrew Lamoureux - 3 years, 10 months ago
Mark Lama
Jun 15, 2017

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is the simplest way I could frame the problem to myself: when the stone is in the boat, it displaces a volume of water having a mass equal to the mass of the stone. When the stone is on the bottom of the lake, it displaces a volume of water equal to the volume of the stone. Since the stone is denser than water, the volume of water displaced is greater in the first case than it is in the second. Therefore, the water level drops (ever so slightly) when the stone is thrown into the lake.

should not it depend on the volume and density of the stone..? the displacement of water can be same too.

Ananya Aaniya - 3 years, 12 months ago

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The amount of the effect depends on the individual stone. However, so long as the stone is denser than (has more mass per unit volume than) water, the effect holds. We are given that the stone sinks, therefore that its density is indeed greater than the density of water.

Mark Lama - 3 years, 11 months ago

Very well explained, I feel this should be the most upvoted/ Top anwer. :-)

Divyanshu Bansal - 3 years, 11 months ago

“imagine it as a tiny pebble that weighs several tons!” OK, the boat will clearly have sunk and be at the bottom of the lake. So, throwing it overboard won't change the water level a bit.

Michael Schaap - 3 years, 11 months ago

Great, brief explanation. The first statement is a useful alternative way of viewing Archimedes' principle.

Andreas Draganis - 3 years, 12 months ago

Indeed, just a simple explanation. No need to make it any more complicated.

Michael Schaap - 3 years, 11 months ago

So you throw the rock in and the rock will have some space to trap the water in the stone

Xin-Kai Nai - 3 years, 9 months ago
Fahim Faisal
Jun 15, 2017

Volume/Mass of Boat with stone < Volume/Mass of Boat and Stone separately!

So, water level is lower!

When the stone in the boat, the boat would be pulled deeply into the water, pushing the water level up as the water is displaced by the boat.

When the stone is thrown, the boat rises in the water because the weight of the stone is no longer pulling it down.

The stone displaces more water when it's in the boat, pulling it down, compared to the amount of water it displaces when resting on the bottom of the lake.

Archimedes Principle states that the buoyant force on a submerged object is equal to the weight of the fluid that is displaced by the object. The weight of the boat and the stone are unchanged, regardless of whether the stone is in the boat or not. Therefore, the same volume of water (equal to the weight of the stone and the weight of the boat) are displaced. The water level remain the same.

Steve Armstrong - 3 years, 11 months ago

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Your first statement is true, but a sinking object has a buoyant force that is less than its weight.

Brian Moehring - 3 years, 11 months ago

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Yup. I see my error now. The buoyant force is equal to the weight of the VOLUME of water displaced. Not equal to the weight of the object. But, hey. It's Friday!

Steve Armstrong - 3 years, 11 months ago

Buoyancy occurs because the pressure in a fluid increases with depth: the upward pressure on the lowest portion of the object is greater than the downward pressure on the topmost part.

Pressure = Force / Area

Also, the Force, or weight, of the water = mg = (density x volume)g = density x (area x height) g = ρAhg

So the Force at the top = ρAh1g

the Force at the bottom = ρAh2g

And the NET force (buoyant force) = ρAh2g - ρAh1g = ρAg (h2 - h1) = ρ(Ah)g = ρVg

F = ρVg Therefore the buoyant force dependent only on the object's volume, not on the object's mass. And since "ρ" is the density of the fluid - not the object's density.

Fahim Faisal - 3 years, 11 months ago

Yup. I see my error now. The buoyant force is equal to the weight of the VOLUME of water displaced. Not equal to the weight of the object. But, hey. It's Friday!

Steve Armstrong - 3 years, 11 months ago
Kazem Sepehrinia
Jun 16, 2017

In the initial state displaced volume of water is V i = ( m + M ) / ρ V_i=(m+M)/ \rho , where m m and M M are masses of stone and boat respectively. ρ \rho is the water density. In the final state displaced volume of water is V f = m / ρ s + M / ρ V_f=m/ \rho_s+M/ \rho , where ρ s \rho_s is stone density. Since ρ s > ρ \rho_s>\rho , then V f = m / ρ s + M / ρ < m / ρ + M / ρ = ( m + M ) / ρ = V i V f < V i V_f=m/ \rho_s+M/ \rho<m/ \rho+M/ \rho= (m+M)/ \rho=V_i \ \ \ \Longrightarrow \ \ \ V_f<V_i So in the final state the water level is lower.

Jonathan Brinley
Jun 16, 2017

Here's an intuitive way of thinking about this problem:

You have a boat. You tie a rock to a rope and hang it over the side of the boat into the water. The weight of the rock pulls the boat downward, causing the boat to displace more water than it would otherwise.

Now the rock slips out of the rope. It's still in the water, so it's effect on the water level remains unchanged. But the boat, free of the extra mass, floats slightly higher, displacing less water than it had before.

With less of the boat's volume in the water, the overall water level is lower.

Brilliant!

Norman Ramsey - 3 years, 11 months ago
Alex Li
Jun 16, 2017

Imagine an extremely light paper boat with a huge volume. Normally it would barely be in the water, but a rock on it makes the boat sink much farther than normal. When you take the rock out, the boat jumps way back up to the surface. The amount of boat volume lost can easily be intuitively imagined to be far greater than the rock volume added to the water, so the water level decreases.

Marina Longnickel
Jun 16, 2017

Think of an extreme case where the rock is a black hole XD or is just very tiny and massive. Then when it's in the bost, the entire volume of the boat is submerged raising the water level, but when you throw it off board, only its tiny volume displaces water.

Robert DeLisle
Jun 16, 2017

The rock in the boat displaces by its mass. In the water only by its volume. If the rock were a very small piece of a black hole, yet the boat could still remain afloat, it would displace the near maximum amount of water. Once tossed overboard it would displace a negligible amount of water, the boat would float higher and the water level would drop commensurately.

Andreas Draganis
Jun 15, 2017

Archimedes principle states that the bouyancy force on a fully or partially submerged object equals the weight of the displaced fluid.

When an object is floating, we are at force equilibrium. Therefore,

m g = V ρ w g mg=V\rho_w g

Thus, the volume of the displaced fluid is

V = m / ρ w V=m/\rho_w

When the stone is in the boat, everything floats, and the displaced volume is

V 1 = ( m b + m s ) / ρ w V_1=(m_b+m_s)/\rho_w

When the stone is at the bottom of the lake, only the boat is floating, so the displaced volume is

V 2 = m b / ρ w + V s V_2=m_b/\rho_w + V_s

Now,

V 1 V 2 = m s / ρ w V s = V s ( ρ s / ρ w 1 ) V_1-V_2 = m_s/\rho_w - V_s = V_s(\rho_s/\rho_w-1)

Since ρ s > ρ w \rho_s > \rho_w (because the stone sinks!), V 1 > V 2 V_1>V_2 , so the water level is lower after the stone has been thrown overboard.

One way to see it is that when the stone is at the bottom, its contribution to the displaced volume is just its own volume. Any density above the water's density is in this case "wasted", whereas when the stone is in the boat, the displaced volume just keeps increasing with the density of the stone.

Atakan Goren
Apr 4, 2020

This seemed simple but. You can scale this down to a beaker full of water (to the rim). then you place a rock in the beaker the rock displaces the water which means there is less water in the beaker. Scale this up to the size of a lake, even though it would be minor there would still be a displacement.

When you go into a bathtub full of water, the water goes up. When you put something that sinks into the bathtub, the water does not go up.

Syed Hamza Khalid
Jul 12, 2017

Mass of Boat with stone < Mass of Boat and Stone separately!

So, water level is lower!

Himanshu Kasera
Jun 25, 2017

Volume/Mass of Boat with stone < Volume/Mass of Boat and Stone separately!

So, water level is lower!

When the stone in the boat, the boat would be pulled deeply into the water, pushing the water level up as the water is displaced by the boat.

When the stone is thrown, the boat rises in the water because the weight of the stone is no longer pulling it down.

The stone displaces more water when it's in the boat, pulling it down, compared to the amount of water it displaces when resting on the bottom of the lake.

Nicholas Patrick
Jun 17, 2017

We can use extreme cases, the rock has no volume but a total mass of 1gram, the boat is has volume and no mass. When the rock is on the boat, the water level is higher than when there is no boat.

Jasim Mahmood
Jun 16, 2017

The stone makes the boat heavy and holds it lower In the water. When he got it out the boat raised and the rock went to the bottom.

Perhaps, the most basic thing to note is that once you throw the stone outside, the net weight of the ship decreases( as a part of it has been thrown out), and thus the upthrust immediately pushes it upward. Thus, relative to the ship, the water level has LOWERED( as it has itself risen). However, the catch is that the stone too displaces a certain volume of water. As others have pointed out, since the volume of the stone is negligible compared to that of the ship, ultimately it is the rise of the ship that dominates. Done!

Colin Gu
Jun 16, 2017

All the things in the lake in total provides constant force to the bottom. At first, the bottom only receives the force from water. Since the rock drops, the bottom directly receives some force from the rock, occupies the force through water. In other words, the force from the water reduces. With the equation for liquid: Force(N)/area(m^2)=pressure(N/m^2)= density(kg/m^3) gravity(N/kg) depth(m), the bottom area, water density, gravity are constant, the Force reduce must be followed by the pressure and the depth reduce.

Bhaskar Pandey
Jun 16, 2017

This problem can be easily solved by considering extreme case. Take the stone to be extremely dense. Then when the stone is on the 🚣, the thing that matters is its mass. But when it is thrown then the main role is played by its volume(which is very less than its density numerically).

Hence, the stone displaces more volume in the first case.

Japheth Wood
Jun 16, 2017

Imagine taking a huge volume of water from the lake and replacing it with a tiny rock of equal mass. The total volume of the lake will decrease, thus lowering the water level. This is analogous to throwing the rock overboard.

Carl Jonson
Jun 16, 2017

A floating body displaces its own weight . A sinking body does not diplace its own weight of water ,it diplaces less than before (that is why it sinks). The stone in the boat was floating . Now the stone is not floating therefore the contribution of the stone is lesser than before .

Hence the water level will go down. (Floating man and floating boat make no difference)

Arjen Vreugdenhil
Jun 15, 2017

Solution #1:

Before: While the stone was floating along with the boat, according to Archimedes' Principle,

weight of water displaced = weight of the stone

and because the stone is denser than water,

volume of water displaced > volume of the stone .

After: Now clearly

volume of water displaced = volume of the stone .

Therefore the stone now displaces less water than it did before; the water level goes down.


Solution #2:

Before: The buoyant force was sufficient to keep the stone afloat.

After: The buoyant force cannot keep the stone afloat; the stone sinks until some other force (normal force from floor of lake) stops it.

Thus the buoyant force decreased. Since the buoyant force equals the weight of the displaced water, this means that the volume of displaced water decreased; the water level went down.

Steven Chase
Jun 15, 2017

Treat the overall change in water level as a superposition of two changes ( v v denotes volume).

Change #1: The stone becomes fully submerged in water Δ v 1 = + v s t o n e \large{\Delta v_1 = +v_{stone}}

Change #2: From Archimedes' Principle, in order to float the stone in the boat, the weight of the water displaced (just to float the stone) must equal the weight of the stone (here, ρ \rho is density). Since the stone no longer floats, this water is no longer displaced.

W s t o n e = v s t o n e ρ s t o n e g = v w , d i s p ρ w g v w , d i s p = v s t o n e ρ s t o n e ρ w Δ v 2 = v s t o n e ρ s t o n e ρ w \large{W_{stone} = v_{stone} \, \rho_{stone} \, g = v_{w,disp} \, \rho_{w} \, g \\ v_{w,disp} = v_{stone} \frac{\rho_{stone}}{\rho_{w}} \\ \Delta v_2 = -v_{stone} \frac{\rho_{stone}}{\rho_{w}} }

The overall displaced volume change is:

Δ v = Δ v 1 + Δ v 2 = v s t o n e v s t o n e ρ s t o n e ρ w ρ s t o n e ρ w > 1 Δ v < 0 \large{\Delta v = \Delta v_1 + \Delta v_2 = v_{stone} -v_{stone} \frac{\rho_{stone}}{\rho_{w}} \\ \\ \frac{\rho_{stone}}{\rho_{w}} > 1 \implies \Delta v < 0}

Thus, the net effect is that the displaced volume decreases, and the water level lowers.

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