Dicey Probability with Dice!

What is the probability that a roll of 5 distinct dice yields a sum of 17)? Round to 4 significant figures.


The answer is 0.1003.

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5 solutions

Steve Shaff
May 11, 2017

Solution: Apply the stars and bars principle with 17 stars and 4 bars. The 4 bars must be placed among the 16 spaces between the bars to simulate dice outcomes. This can be done in C(16,4) ways, but this includes outcomes where at least some of the 5 bins contain more than 6 stars. Suppose (WLOG) the first bin contains more than 6 stars. To count the number of ways this can happen suppose the first bin contains 6 stars at the outset, then apply stars and bars to the remaining 11 stars. This yields C(10, 4) ways to distribute the 11 stars into the 5 bins. Since this scenario can occur for each of the 5 bins, there are 5∙C(10,4) of these outcomes in all. Note that all outcomes in which two bins containing more than 6 stars were counted twice here, so we can apply the principle of inclusion-exclusion to restore these outcomes to the count. There are C(5, 2) ways to choose the two bins containing more than 6 stars and for each of these cases we can apply stars and bars to count the number of ways of distributing the remaining 5 stars into the 5 bins. This yields C(5, 2))∙C(4, 4)) outcomes to be added back. Therefore, the required probability is (C(16, 4)) - 5∙C(10, 4)) + C(5, 2))∙C(4, 4)))/6^5 =780/7776=65/648≈.1003 which is consistent with published probability tables.

N O T E : X m f ( x ) D e n o t e s t h e c o e f f i c i e n t o f X m i n f ( x ) NOTE \quad :-\quad \\ { X }^{ m }\quad |\quad f\left( x \right) \quad \quad Denotes\quad the\quad coefficient\quad of\quad { X }^{ m }\quad in\quad f\left( x \right)

U s i n g M u l t i n o m i a l t h e o r e m c a l c u l a t i o n o f t o t a l n u m b e r o f p o s s i b l e c a s e s . L e t X i d e n o t e s t h e n u m b e r a p p e a r i n g o n i t h D i c e X i { 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 } i = 1 5 X i = 17 X 17 ( x + x 2 + x 3 + x 4 + x 5 + x 6 ) 5 X 12 ( 1 + x + x 2 + x 3 + x 4 + x 5 ) 5 X 12 ( x 6 1 x 1 ) 5 = 780 T o t a l n u m b e r o f c a s e s a r e = 6 5 T h e r e f o r e P r o b a b i l i t y = 780 6 5 \quad \quad \quad \quad Using\quad Multinomial\quad theorem\quad \\ calculation\quad of\quad total\quad number\quad of\quad possible\quad cases.\\ Let\quad { X }_{ i }\quad denotes\quad the\quad number\quad appearing\quad on\quad { i }^{ th }\quad Dice\\ { X }_{ i }\in \quad \{ 1,2,3,4,5,6\} \\ \sum _{ i=1 }^{ 5 }{ { X }_{ i } } =17\\ { X }^{ 17 }\quad |\quad { (x+{ x }^{ 2 }+{ x }^{ 3 }+{ x }^{ 4 }+{ x }^{ 5 }+{ x }^{ 6 }) }^{ 5 }\\ { X }^{ 12 }\quad |\quad { (1+x+{ x }^{ 2 }+{ x }^{ 3 }+{ x }^{ 4 }+{ x }^{ 5 }) }^{ 5 }\\ { X }^{ 12 }\quad |\quad { \left( \frac { { x }^{ 6 }-1 }{ x-1 } \right) }^{ 5 }=780\\ Total\quad number\quad of\quad cases\quad are\quad =\quad { 6 }^{ 5 }\\ Therefore\quad Probability=\frac { 780 }{ { 6 }^{ 5 } } \\

Moderator note:

When introducing new notation, you should make the definition clear at the start, so that someone who is reading the solution can easily follow through at the start, instead of reading all the way to the end before realizing "Oh, that's what he wants".

When introducing new notation, you should make the definition clear at the start, so that someone who is reading the solution can easily follow through at the start, instead of reading all the way to the end before realizing "Oh, that's what he wants".

Calvin Lin Staff - 5 years, 3 months ago

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Ok i will do it in my upcoming solutions.

Rishabh Deep Singh - 5 years, 3 months ago

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Could you edit your solution accordingly? Thanks!

Also, include a brief explanation of how the coefficient could be calculated.

Calvin Lin Staff - 5 years, 3 months ago

Could you provide some clarification about how you applied the multinomial theorem to get

X 12 ( x 6 1 x 1 ) 5 = 780 {X}^{12}\quad|\quad{\left(\frac{{x}^{6}-1}{x-1}\right)}^{5}=780

Thanks.

zico quintina - 3 years, 5 months ago

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Unfortunately, I do not believe that there is an easy way of doing so, other than essentially calculating the full polynomial.

I encourage you to read Steve's solution about Stars and Bars, which is how I would approach this problem for small numbers.

Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 5 months ago

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Yes, I tried applying it to ( 1 + x + x 2 + x 3 + x 4 + x 5 ) 5 (1+x+x^{2}+x^{3}+x^{4}+x^{5})^{5} and immediately realized it was much too complex to solve by hand. I guess my question was more about whether re-writing it as the rational ( x 6 1 x 1 ) 5 \left(\dfrac{x^{6}-1}{x-1}\right)^{5} would make it any easier; the little I've read about the Multinomial Theorem gives no indication about how to (or even whether one can) apply it to rational expressions. I did read Steve's solution and found it very interesting.

zico quintina - 3 years, 4 months ago
Muhammad Ali
Jun 4, 2015

matlab

Carsten Meyer
Oct 14, 2019

D&D-Notation: m d N m{d}N is a shorthand for "Throw m m dice with N N equal surfaces labeled 1 ; ; N 1;\ldots;N and calculate their sum."

In this problem, we want to calculate the probability distribution function p 5 ( n ) p_5(n) for a 5 d 6 5d6 roll and evaluate at n = 17 n=17 . The dice are independent from each other. Let's begin with one die:


One die

The pdf for a 1 d N 1dN roll is easy to write down. Using the discrete unit step function r 0 ( n ) r_0(n) , we get rid of the two cases: p 1 ( n ) = { 1 N : 1 n N 0 : else = 1 N ( r 0 ( n 1 ) r 0 ( n ( N + 1 ) ) ) = : q 1 ( n 1 ) r 0 ( n ) : = { 1 : n 0 0 : else \begin{aligned} p_1(n)&=\begin{cases} \frac{1}{N}:&1\leq n\leq N\\ 0:&\text{else} \end{cases}=\frac{1}{N}\left(r_0(n-1)-r_0(n-(N+1))\right)=:q_1(n-1)&&&&\left|r_0(n):=\begin{cases} 1:&n\geq 0\\ 0:&\text{else} \end{cases}\right. \end{aligned}

The function q 1 ( n ) q_1(n) gets rid of the translation by 1 to the right.


The general case - m m dice

What about an m d N mdN roll? The pdf for each die is p 1 ( n ) p_1(n) , of course. and all dice are independent from each other - but we are interested in their sum! Recall that the pdf of the sum of m m independent random variables is the convolution of their pdf's: p m ( n ) = ( p 1 ( k ) p 1 ( k ) ) ( n ) m × p 1 ( k ) = ( q 1 ( k 1 ) q 1 ( k 1 ) ) ( n ) = ( q 1 ( k ) q 1 ( k ) ) ( n m ) = : q m ( n m ) q m ( n ) : = ( q 1 ( k ) q 1 ( k ) ) ( n ) m × q 1 ( k ) = 1 N m l = 0 m ( 1 ) l ( m l ) r m 1 ( n l N ) ( ) \begin{aligned} p_m(n)&=\underset{m\times p_1(k)}{ \underbrace{ \left(p_1(k)*\ldots *p_1(k)\right)(n) } }=\left(q_1(k-1)*\ldots *q_1(k-1)\right)(n)=\left(q_1(k)*\ldots*q_1(k)\right)(n-m)=:q_m(n-m)\\ q_m(n)&:=\underset{m\times q_1(k)}{ \underbrace{ \left(q_1(k)*\ldots *q_1(k)\right)(n) } }=\frac{1}{N^m}\sum_{l=0}^m (-1)^l\binom{m}{l} r_{m-1}(n-lN)\qquad(*) \end{aligned}

The last step can be shown by induction over m m : m = 1 : q 1 ( n ) = 1 N ( r 0 ( n ) r 0 ( n N ) ) m m + 1 : q m + 1 ( n ) = ( q m ( k ) q 1 ( k ) ) ( n ) = ( ) 1 N m l = 0 m ( 1 ) l ( m l ) ( r m 1 ( k l N ) q 1 ( k ) ) ( n ) = ( ) 1 N m + 1 l = 0 m ( 1 ) l ( m l ) ( r m ( n l N ) r m ( n ( l + 1 ) N ) ) = 1 N m + 1 ( r m ( n ) + l = 1 m ( 1 ) l [ ( m l ) + ( m l 1 ) ] r m ( n l N ) + ( 1 ) m + 1 r m ( n ( m + 1 ) N ) ) = 1 N m + 1 l = 0 m + 1 ( 1 ) l ( m + 1 l ) r m ( n l N ) \begin{aligned} m=1:&&q_1(n)&=\frac{1}{N}(r_0(n)-r_0(n-N))\\ m\rightsquigarrow m+1:&&q_{m+1}(n)&=(q_m(k)*q_1(k))(n)\underset{(*)}{=}\frac{1}{N^m}\sum_{l=0}^m (-1)^l\binom{m}{l} (r_{m-1}(k-lN)*q_1(k))(n)\\ &&&\underset{(**)}{=}\frac{1}{N^{m+1}}\sum_{l=0}^m (-1)^l\binom{m}{l} (r_{m}(n-lN)-r_{m}(n-(l+1)N))\\ &&&=\frac{1}{N^{m+1}}\left( r_m(n) + \sum_{l=1}^{m} (-1)^l\left[ \binom{m}{l}+\binom{m}{l-1} \right]r_m(n-lN) + (-1)^{m+1}r_m(n-(m+1)N) \right)\\ &&&=\frac{1}{N^{m+1}}\sum_{l=0}^{m+1} (-1)^l\binom{m+1}{l}r_m(n-lN) \end{aligned}


The special case - five dice

In the special case of a 5 d 6 5d6 roll, the pdf evaluated at n = 17 n=17 is given by p 5 ( 17 ) = q 5 ( 17 5 ) = q 5 ( 12 ) = 1 6 5 l = 0 5 ( 1 ) l ( 5 l ) r 4 ( 12 6 l ) = 1 6 5 ( ( 5 0 ) ( 12 + 4 4 ) ( 5 1 ) ( 6 + 4 4 ) + ( 5 2 ) ( 4 4 ) ) = 780 6 5 0.1003 \begin{aligned} p_5(17)&=q_5(17-5)=q_5(12)=\frac{1}{6^5}\sum_{l=0}^5 (-1)^l\binom{5}{l} r_{4}(12-6l)=\frac{1}{6^5}\left( \binom{5}{0}\binom{12+4}{4}-\binom{5}{1}\binom{6+4}{4}+\binom{5}{2}\binom{4}{4} \right)\\ &=\frac{780}{6^5}\approx\boxed{0.1003} \end{aligned}


Theorem: Let m N 0 , n Z m\in\mathbb{N}_0,\:n\in\mathbb{Z} and r 0 ( n ) r_0(n) be the discrete unit step function. Then r m ( n ) : = r 0 ( n ) ( n + m m ) r m + 1 ( n ) = ( r m ( k ) r 0 ( k ) ) ( n ) r 0 ( n ) : = { 1 : n 0 0 : else ( ) \begin{aligned} r_m(n)&:=r_0(n)\cdot\binom{n+m}{m}&\Rightarrow &&r_{m+1}(n)&=(r_m(k)*r_0(k))(n)&&&&\left|r_0(n):=\begin{cases} 1:&n\geq 0\\ 0:&\text{else} \end{cases}\right.&&&&(**) \end{aligned}

Prove it directly for n < 0 n<0 and by induction over n n for n 0 n\geq 0 !

Suneet Bendre
Jun 1, 2015

No# Dice = n (i.e5) Range of Sum n >= k <= 6n (5 to 30). Written Program to Print Number of Possible condition for each SUM Num[5]=1 Num[6]=5 Num[7]=15 Num[8]=35 Num[9]=70 Num[10]=126 Num[11]=205 Num[12]=305 Num[13]=420 Num[14]=540 Num[15]=651 Num[16]=735 Num[17]=780 Num[18]=780 Num[19]=735 Num[20]=651 Num[21]=540 Num[22]=420 Num[23]=305 Num[24]=205 Num[25]=126 Num[26]=70 Num[27]=35 Num[28]=15 Num[29]=5 Num[30]=1

780/(6^5) = 0.1003

but the answer just says 0.1

Zhaochen Xie - 6 years ago

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floating point error?

Tim Plump - 6 years ago

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kind of like that

Zhaochen Xie - 6 years ago

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