Enough Information?

Algebra Level 1

a a , b b , and c c are real numbers such that

a + b = 6 a 2 + b 2 + c 2 = 18 a+b=6 \\ a^2+b^2+c^2=18

What is the value of a c a-c ?


The answer is 3.

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26 solutions

Richard Costen
Dec 15, 2016

b = ( 6 a ) (from 1st equation) a 2 + ( 6 a ) 2 + c 2 = 18 (subst. into 2nd eqn.) 2 a 2 12 a + 18 + c 2 = 0 (simplifying) 2 ( a 3 ) 2 + c 2 = 0 (factoring 1st 3 terms) \begin{aligned}b&=(6-a) \quad \text{(from 1st equation)} \\ a^2+(6-a)^2+c^2&=18 \quad \text{(subst. into 2nd eqn.)} \\ 2a^2-12a+18+c^2&=0 \quad \text{(simplifying)} \\ 2(a-3)^2+c^2&=0 \quad \text{(factoring 1st 3 terms)}\end{aligned} \\ The only way the sum of two squares can be zero is if both squares are zero. a = 3 , c = 0 \therefore a=3, c=0 and a c = 3 a-c=\boxed{3}

I disagree: The way the question is written, I think a and b can be interchangeable, thus equal: If they are equal they both have to be 3. Therefore c would have to be 0. 9 minus 0 = 9. [my answer]

[note: not being a good typist, I left out obvious steps.] [another note: I haven't attempted any algebra in over 6 decades.]

Someone, please explain where I am wrong. Thanks. :) pip

Lawrence Piper - 4 years, 4 months ago

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It seems that you came up with a=3 and c=0. I'm not sure why you put a 9 in there. a-c=3-0=3

Christopher Rioux - 4 years, 4 months ago

One also has to be careful about the a and b being interchangeable. Since there is a quadratic equation involved, there could be more than one solution. Say the 2nd equation is: . Then both a=2,b=4,c=3 and a=4,b=2,c=3 are solutions.

Richard Costen - 4 years, 4 months ago

The question was what does a - c = , so if a = 3 and c = 0, then a - c = 3, which is the correct answer, not 9.

Dwight Beguin - 4 years ago

This is kind of cheating. You only know this because you assume the puzzle has a solution, and only one solution.

Secondly, you just said a and b were both 3.

3 0 = 3 3 - 0 = 3

I think you accidentally did a 2 c a^2 - c

Richard's solution is concise yet complete with no assumptions.

Rishy Fishy - 1 year, 10 months ago
Sam Gilbert
Dec 2, 2016

We find that by arithmetic mean - geometric mean , the minimum value of a 2 + b 2 a^2+b^2 when a + b = 6 a+b=6 is 18, for which a = b = 3 a = b = 3 . Plugging this into the other equation we get 18 + c = 18 18+c=18 , for which c = 0 c = 0 . Thus a c = 3 0 = 3 a - c = 3 - 0 = 3 .

If you assume that there IS enough information and that the problem is solvable, then there is a quick route to the answer.

Because of the a,b symmetry of the problem, a-b and a-c must have the same value!

The first equation then fixes a=b=3, and the second equation fixes c=0.

Peter Macgregor - 4 years, 6 months ago

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This is a very common misconception that people make about "solving symmetric equations". For example, see inequalities with strange equality conditions for how "symmetric conditions" do not yield a "symmetric solution".

Here are several systems of equations that act as a counter example:
1. a b = 0 , a + b = 1 ab = 0 , a+b = 1
2. x + y + z = 3 , x 2 y + y 2 z + z 2 x = 4 x + y + z = 3, x^2y + y^2z + z^2x = 4

Even if we assume that there is enough information, and that there are (real) solutions to the equations, we do not have a = b a = b or x = y = z x = y = z .

Calvin Lin Staff - 4 years, 6 months ago

Hmm, how do you use AM-GM though? I did cauchy-schwarz.

Christopher Boo - 4 years, 6 months ago

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Exactly. AMGM is only applicable for non-negative real numbers, the question did not state that a,b,c are non-negative real numbers.

Pi Han Goh - 4 years, 6 months ago

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Here is one way to get around that restriction:

a 2 + b 2 2 = a 2 + b 2 2 ( a + b 2 ) 2 ( a + b 2 ) 2 = 9 \frac{a^2 + b^2}{2} = \frac{|a|^2 + |b|^2}{2} \geq \left( \frac{ |a| + |b| } { 2} \right)^2 \geq \left( \frac{ |a + b| } { 2} \right)^2 = 9

The first inequality is AM-GM, the second is the triangle inequality.

Calvin Lin Staff - 4 years, 6 months ago

Great observation!

Calvin Lin Staff - 4 years, 6 months ago

By Cauchy-Schwarz Inequality , ( a 2 + b 2 ) ( 1 2 + 1 2 ) ( a + b ) 2 a 2 + b 2 18 a 2 + b 2 + c 2 18 + c 2 18 18 + c 2 \begin{aligned} (a^2+b^2)(1^2+1^2)&\geq (a+b)^2\\ \implies a^2+b^2&\geq 18\\ \implies a^2+b^2+c^2&\geq 18+c^2\\ \implies 18&\geq 18+c^2 \end{aligned}

Hence c 2 0 c = 0 c^2\leq 0\implies c=0 .Hence we're left with the system: { a + b = 6 a 2 + b 2 = 18 \begin{cases} a+b =6\\ a^2+b^2=18 \end{cases}

Solving this system gives a = b = 3 a=b=3 ,hence a c = 3 0 = 3 a-c=3-0=\boxed{3}

a=3 (squared is 9 + b=3 squared is 9 then c -zero squares is zero - consequently then 9 + 9 + 0 =18 alternate reality and you/and I are assuming a base of 10 what is it in base 3 modulo.

Robert Ghosiosr - 4 years, 4 months ago

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If the calculations were to be done in modulo 3,it would have been specifically stated in the question.

Abdur Rehman Zahid - 4 years, 3 months ago

There is nothing that says "a" does not equal "c". In that case, if a=1, b=4 and c=1; them a2 - c2 = 0 .

David Bailey - 4 years, 4 months ago

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If a = 1 , b = 4 , c = 1 a=1,b=4,c=1 then a + b = 1 + 4 6 a+b=1+4\not=6 .So that triple is not a solution to this system of equations.

Abdur Rehman Zahid - 4 years, 3 months ago

Would u please tell me, y hav u added 1 in first line

Amit Kumar - 3 years, 1 month ago
Jordan Neal
Feb 6, 2017

b = 6 a b = 6 - a

so

a 2 + ( 6 a ) 2 + c 2 = 18 a^2 + (6 - a)^2 + c^2 = 18

simplify

2 a 2 12 a + 36 + c 2 = 18 2a^2 - 12a + 36 + c^2 = 18

solve for c

c = 2 a 2 + 12 a 18 c = \sqrt{-2a^2 + 12a - 18}

simplify

c = 2 ( a 3 ) c = \sqrt{-2}(a - 3)

2 \sqrt{-2} will always be an imaginary number so the only real number solution for c is 0 where a = 3.

so

a + c = 3 + 0 = 3 a + c = 3 + 0 = 3

I think this solution is complete and eloquent.

Ron Crosby - 4 years, 4 months ago
Roy Bertoldo
Jan 29, 2017

Eq #1: Possible solutions (a,b) = (1,5), (5,1), (2,4), (4,2), (3,3)

Eq #2: (a,b,c) = (3,3,0),

Eq #3: a - c = 3 - 0 = 3

a and b can be negative or null, a, b are real numbers.

Mouëza Moran - 4 years, 4 months ago

More or less How I did it. If there is a single answer for a-3, then any solution for a,b,c must show it and 3,3,0 is a simple solution. Also answers with a or b >4 don't fit with 2nd <=18 equation

Robert Creamer - 4 years, 4 months ago

Your way of solving it seems closest to how I did it. So glad to get it right! :-)

Vanessa Buckner - 4 years, 4 months ago
E Justin Rowles
Jan 28, 2017

The question is symmetric in a and b. Therefore, as we know there is a single answer, a-c must equal b-c, and therefore a=b. Therefore a=b=3 and c=0.

Beautiful solution!

Patrick Ridley - 4 years, 4 months ago

Your solution begs the question that there is a unique answer. How would your analysis work if the second equation added to 20, not 18?

Paul Bankston - 4 years, 3 months ago

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The question asks what is 'the value', which implies (to me anyway) uniqueness.

E Justin Rowles - 4 years, 1 month ago

Can you provide a link for symmetric concept

Sita Ram - 4 years, 3 months ago

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Not easily, but the idea is that if you swap the a and b variables around, then you can re-organise the equations to get back where you started.

E Justin Rowles - 4 years, 1 month ago
Greg Dent
Feb 19, 2017

5 squared = 25, which is more than 18, so, assuming whole numbers, the highest possible unknown value is 4

4 squared = 16, but no pair of squared numbers adds up to 2, which is needed for a sum of 18

2 squared = 4. Even if all three values are 2, the squares won't add up to 18

Therefore, at least one of the values must be 3

3 squared = 9. If two of the values are 3, we have our total of 18

But only if the third value is 0

The two values that are 3 must be a and b to have a sum of 6

Therefore, a = 3, b = 3, and c = 0

And a - c = 3 - 0 = 3

Stephen Hancock
Feb 19, 2017

If we allow c=0 then by inspection a = 3 and b = 3 is a solution.

Elana Howard
Feb 5, 2017

Nothing could be negative because squaring it would make it positive. So a and b needs to be 3. 3 squared + 3 squared is 18 so c had to be 0.
P.S. as a person who hated word problems growing up I think it is cheating to make two variables the same number. a and b are different letters and should be different numbers. This is a trick question for many students.

David Griffin
Feb 5, 2017

a a + b b = 6 6 [ 1 ] [1]

a 2 a^2 + b 2 b^2 + c 2 c^2 = 18 18 [ 2 ] [2]

Squaring [ 1 ] : [1]:

a 2 a^2 + b 2 b^2 = 36 36 - 2 a b 2ab

Substituting into [ 2 ] : [2]:

2 a 2 2a^2 - 12 a 12a + [ c 2 c^2 + 18 18 ]= 0

Solving for a : a:

a a = 3 3 ± \pm i i 2 2 \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2} c c

Substituting a a into b : b:

b b = 3 \mp i i 2 2 \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2} c c

Since a a , b b and c c are real

a = b = 3 a = b = 3 and c = 0 c = 0

Thus a c = 3 a - c = 3

As the value of a-c is same for all value you can choose any two values of a and b which satisfy the first equation and find c. However it would be good if anyone posts any general solution.

Amit Aji
Jul 16, 2019

I would do it slightly different.

Taking the constraint a,b,c>=0 . I rewrite eqn to get c^2=18-(a^2+b^2) From eqn 1 u know a^2+b^2= 36 -2ab So c^2=2ab-18

Now since c>=0 so c^2>=0

So the turning point is c^2=0. That would mean 18 -2ab =0 ab =9 . We know from eqn 1 a+b = 6

The only real solution to this is a=b=3 . This would give c= 0

Hence at our required turning point c=0 giving a-c = 3

Paul Bankston
Feb 19, 2017

Substitute b=6-a. The function y=a^2+(6-a)^2 has a parabolic graph, and reaches minimum of 18 when a=3. Since the right side of the second equation is precisely 18, there is a unique solution a-c=3. If it were <18 there could be no solution; if >18, infinitely many.

Emrah Haspolat
Feb 17, 2017
  • If a + b = 6 , a+b=6,
  • Then the minimum value of a 2 + b 2 a^2+b^2 is:
  • a = b = a + b 2 a=b=\frac{a+b}{2} which gives a = b = 3 a=b=3 .
  • Therefore, this minimum value is calculated as a 2 + b 2 = 3 2 + 3 2 = 18 a^2+b^2=3^2+3^2=18
  • Then, we can easily find that c 2 = 0 c^2=0 , which gives us c = 0 c=0 .
  • The result of a c a-c is:
  • a c = 3 0 = 0 a-c=3-0=0 .
Ed Green
Feb 17, 2017

the only way to make 18 out of three square numbers is using zero squared plus a combination of three and minus three - the only way to make six from two of these is to use two threes - hence a and b both equal three and c equals zero

Patrick Ridley
Feb 13, 2017

Draw the line a+b=6 and the sphere a 2 + b 2 + c 2 = 18 a^2+b^2+c^2=18 on coordinate axes a, b and c. They touch in only one place, at the point a=b=3, c=0 (radius is 18 \sqrt{18} and the length of the perpendicular from the line to the origin is also 18 \sqrt{18} by pythogoras). This point is the only one for which the two statements can both be true.

Peter Milner
Feb 11, 2017

I just did it in my head: the only way to arrive at 18 is for a to be 4 and b and c to both be 1, 4-1 = 3. I now see that this is wrong because although this solution satisfies the second equation it does not work with the first. back to the drawing board. If a and b are both 3 this satisfies equation 1 and for equation 2 to work c must = 0, 3 - 0 =3. finito

Laligam Sekhar
Feb 10, 2017

a=3; b=3; a2+b2 is 9+9=18; c=0; 3-0 =3

Milad Fozooni
Feb 8, 2017

The minimum value of a^2+b^2 subject to a+b=const is given by a=b=const/2. Hence, in this case a=b=3 returns the minimum value of a^2+b^2 which is equal 3^2+3^2=18! Then C^2 must be zero and consequently a-c=3-0=3.

Ed Williams
Feb 8, 2017

Assuming a,b and c are WHOLE numbers (I speak English), not "real" numbers, and assuming they do not have negative values, then a+b=6 means both a and b could be 0,1,2,3,4, 5 or 6

However 5 or 6 squared exceed 18

4 squared is 16, but 1 squared is 1, 2 squared is 4 so cant add to 16 to make 18

Therefore only a and b are 3, 3 squared is 9

thus 9 +9 +0 = 18

So c = 0, simples ....

Bruce Gilbert
Feb 6, 2017

only 4 options for a+b =6 (0,6; 1,5; 2,4; 3,3). Squaring the two values leaves only 3,3 as an options. All others add up to value > 18. a and b being 3 gives a a + b b = 18, so c must be 0. 3-0 = 3.

Boaz Bilgory
Feb 5, 2017

(a+b)^2 = 6^2 a^2+2ab+b^2=36 -a^2-b^2-c^2=-18

2ab-c^2=18 a=6-b , b=6-a 2(6-b)b-c^2 = -18 = 2(6-a)a-c^2 12b-2b^2-c^2=12a-2a^2-c^2 12b-2b^2=12a-2a^2 --> a=b --> a=3 , b=3 9+9+c^2=18 --> c=0

a-c = 3

Ung-Jin Kim
Feb 5, 2017

gut feeling

Rob Saville
Feb 5, 2017

I'm no mathematician. The second equation only works if 2 of the numbers are 3 or -3, and the other 0. No other real numbers fit. Equation 1 only works if they are both 3. So a=b=3. So c has to be 0

Your first assertion is incorrect. There are infinite solutions that satisfy the second equation by itself with real numbers a, b, and c. If a=2 and b=3, then c=sqrt5, for instance.

You happened upon the correct answer of a-c=3. But the reasoning listed is incorrect.

Christopher Rioux - 4 years, 4 months ago
Vanessa Buckner
Feb 4, 2017

I looked at all possible pairs of integers as values for a and b: (1,5), (2,4), (3,3), (4,2), (5,1).

Evaluating them, I realized that in 4 out of the 5 pairs, a^2 + b^2 was always greater than 18, and that would make c^2 a negative number, which is impossible; see below.

For example:

(When a=1, b=5): 1 + 25 + c^2 = 18? No. 26 plus anything would be > 18, making c^2 negative. Impossible.

(When a=2, b=4): 4 + 16 + c^2 = 18? No, 20 plus anything would be > 18, making c^2 negative. Impossible.

(When a=3, b=3): 9 + 9 + c^2 = 18? This could work...

(When a=4, b=2): 16 + 4 + c^2 = 18? No, 20 plus anything would be > 18, making c^2 negative. Impossible.

(When a=5, b=1): 25 + 1 + c^2= 18? No, 26 plus anything would be > 18, making c^2 negative. Impossible.

The one pair not greater than 18 was c^2 + c^2 = 18, making the correct pair (3,3). That made c = 0.

With the values a=3, b=3, c=0 in place, the equation became 3^2 + 3^2 + 0^2 = 9+9+0 = 18.

That meant a-c = 3-0 = 3.

a, b, and c are real numbers. The set is not limited to integers, much less to the positive integers you listed. Your answer is correct but not elegant or correctly reasoned. See Richard's solution.

Christopher Rioux - 4 years, 4 months ago
S L
Dec 14, 2016

a,b = 3; c=0 works (by inspection) So if the statement is generally true (which is implied by the question) then the answer is 3.

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