Expected rolls until a 6

Suppose I roll a fair, six-sided die repeatedly until I get a 6. It is well-known that the expected number of rolls is exactly 6.

Now, suppose instead that I roll a fair, six-sided die repeatedly until I get a 6, and I tell you that every time I rolled the die, an even number (2, 4, or 6) came up. What is the expected number of die rolls that I made?


Clarification: For example, I could have rolled 2-4-4-2-4-6, 2-6, 4-4-6, or just 6.


Source: Gil Kalai's blog


The answer is 1.5.

This section requires Javascript.
You are seeing this because something didn't load right. We suggest you, (a) try refreshing the page, (b) enabling javascript if it is disabled on your browser and, finally, (c) loading the non-javascript version of this page . We're sorry about the hassle.

2 solutions

Patrick Corn
Sep 21, 2017

Relevant wiki: Conditional Probability - Problem Solving

Here is one solution. It's probably not the most elegant, but it has the advantage of being completely clear.

Let p = 1 / 6 p = 1/6 and q = 1 / 3. q=1/3. Then the probability of getting a 6 6 in exactly k k even rolls is q k 1 p . q^{k-1}p. So the probability of having all even rolls until we get a 6 is the sum k = 1 q k 1 p = p 1 q = 1 / 4. \sum_{k=1}^\infty q^{k-1}p = \frac{p}{1-q} = 1/4. Then the expected value of our number of rolls, given that we rolled all evens, is just k = 1 k q k 1 p \sum_{k=1}^\infty kq^{k-1}p divided by the probability of rolling all evens, which is 1 / 4. 1/4. So we get 4 p k = 1 k q k 1 = 4 p ( 1 q ) 2 = 3 / 2. 4p\sum_{k=1}^\infty kq^{k-1} = \frac{4p}{(1-q)^2} = 3/2. (That sum is well-known--one way to get it is to notice that k q k 1 kq^{k-1} is the derivative of q k , q^k, and use the geometric series.)

Why is the answer not 3? Well, here is a vague but convincing explanation: 3 is the answer you'd get if we were rolling a 3-sided die. But we're not, and so the fact that we got all even numbers biases our sample toward being shorter, because we're given that all of our rolls were even, and that is harder and harder to do the more we roll. Put another way, suppose the die was 100-sided, and I told you that I rolled until I got a 6 and that all my rolls were either 2, 4, or 6. How many rolls would you expect me to have made? Right, pretty close to 1, because I'm much, much more likely to have rolled a 6 right away than to have rolled x x 6 where x x is 2 or 4.

Thanks for the explanation. I was able to solve it in a little different way using your answer. This is what I did. Using the probability that all the rolls are even numbers is 1/4, we can get the expectation by conditioning on whether the first roll is a 6. Since that conditional probability is 1/6 divided by 1/4, it is 2/3 and we get E=2/3+1/3(E+1) where E is the expectation. And hence, E=1.5. I also got 3 at my first attempt by computing the probability of getting a 6 on the first row by 1/3. This is incorrect because our sample space is not {2,4,6} but {6, 26, 46, 226, 246,...} with the sample points having unequal probability. The sample space is not exactly half of the original sample space which is {6, 16, 26, 36, ...}. Looking at the sample space makes it clear why it cannot be 3, which is half of the unconditional expectation. Using only 2,4,6 will never give half of the whole sample space and the answer is therefore not 3. So the essence of it is knowing that the sample space is not {1,2,3,4,5,6} or {2,4,6}.

JeongHa Cho - 3 years, 8 months ago

Can you explain you second expression a bit... (\where from does the k comes in the second line)\

Ariijit Dey - 3 years, 8 months ago

Hi Patrick! The probability of getting 6 in exactly k even rolls is not exactly what you have explained; This experiment requires 6 to be excluded from the sample space for the other (k-1) rolls. Bot you have considered the probability q=1/3 for all even rolls. An even roll also must exclude 6 from the sample space. Otherwise the probability of 6 being as an outcome is being iterated for all the k rolls. You should rather retreat considering q to be 1/3. q=1/2 may work.

Ariijit Dey - 3 years, 8 months ago

Log in to reply

Patrick, included just 2 and 4. 1/3=2/6. He is right!

JeongHa Cho - 3 years, 8 months ago

Why did u divide by 1/4 in the last line?

Ariijit Dey - 3 years, 8 months ago
Laurent Shorts
Oct 8, 2017

When you roll the die repeatedly, you stop when you have an odd number (and throw the rolls away) or a 6 (keep the rolls). As the probability of ending at each roll is 3 + 1 6 = 2 3 \dfrac{3+1}6=\dfrac23 , the average number of rolls is 1 2 3 = 3 2 \dfrac1{\frac{2}{3}}=\dfrac32 .

Now, as the number of rolls is independent from the fact the the last roll is a 6 or an odd number, 3 2 \dfrac32 is also the average number of rolls ending with a 6.

Hi man , you say that the probability of ending at each roll is 2/3. I get your feel, but your argument says, Each te we roll the dice, we either end up with an even number (the probability of which is 1/2) or get a 6( the probability of which is 1/6) but you mistaken one point bro, i.e an even number also includes, a 6 as an outcome. So using the partition theory, we need to subtract the probability of the case, where we get the intersection of the two events.

* This problem needs to be reported if I am not wrong. Because all the solvers are missing the same case which I just spoke about *

Ariijit Dey - 3 years, 8 months ago

"What is the expected number of die rolls that I made?" How do you roll one and half a roll?

Mr J - 3 years, 8 months ago

Log in to reply

Expected value is a mean, not a median or anything. It may not be a real result but it is the average result. https://brilliant.org/wiki/expected-value/

Alex Li - 3 years, 7 months ago

Log in to reply

Thanks for explaining and the link!

Mr J - 3 years, 6 months ago

Expected value refers to what happens on average in the long run. It doesn’t say anything about what will happen on any particular occasion.

Andrew Berthelsen - 3 years, 7 months ago

Log in to reply

Thanks for the explanation!

Mr J - 3 years, 6 months ago

0 pending reports

×

Problem Loading...

Note Loading...

Set Loading...