Frogs don't know physics, do they?

A frog sits on the end of a long board of length L = 5 L=5 m. The board rests on a frictionless horizontal table. The frog wants to jump to the opposite end of the board.

What is the minimum take-off speed (in m/s) relative to ground that allows the frog to complete the trick?

Assumptions and Details

  • The board and the frog have equal masses.
  • The frog's feet do not slip on the board.
  • Let g = 9.8 m / s 2 g=\SI[per-mode=symbol]{9.8}{\meter\per\second\squared} .


The answer is 4.949747468305833.

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8 solutions

Josh Silverman Staff
Sep 11, 2015

The first thing to notice about this problem is that the overall momentum in the x ^ \hat{x} -direction of the frog and board will be conserved throughout the process. Because they have equal mass (the frog and board), and they start off at rest, we can simply write

v frog cos θ + v board = 0 v_\text{frog}\cos\theta + v_\text{board} = 0

The cos θ \cos\theta reflects the fact that the frog is not jumping purely sideways but at an angle θ \theta relative to the table so that he goes up in the air in a projectile motion. By the end of his jump, we want the frog to be on the opposite end of the board. Thus, we can choose coordinates where the frog begins at the origin, and the end of the board starts at x = L x=L .

The motion of the board (after the frog jumps) is given by x board = L v board t \displaystyle x_\text{board} = L - v_\text{board}t . The motion of the frog is described by

x frog = v frog cos θ t y frog = v frog sin θ t 1 2 g t 2 \begin{aligned} x_\text{frog} &= v_\text{frog}\cos\theta t \\ y_\text{frog} &= v_\text{frog}\sin\theta t - \frac12 gt^2 \end{aligned}

When the frog lands, we want the x x position of the frog and the end of the board to be the same (i.e. x frog = x board x_\text{frog}=x_\text{board} ), thus the time of coincidence is given by t = L 2 v frog cos θ \displaystyle t^* = \frac{L}{2v_\text{frog}\cos\theta} .

We're also constrained by the vertical motion of the frog, which demands that t = 2 v frog sin θ / g \displaystyle t^* = 2v_\text{frog}\sin\theta/g . Putting these results together, we find

v = 1 2 g L cos θ sin θ \displaystyle v = \frac12 \sqrt{\frac{gL}{\cos\theta\sin\theta}}

This shows that there is no single choice of v v or θ \theta . There are an infinity of ( v , θ ) \left(v,\theta\right) pairs, which lie along the curves defined by the equality above, that result in the successful performance of the trick. However, we can choose the pair with the smallest value of v v such that the trick successfully obtains.

The only free parameter here is in the choice of θ \theta , the frog's takeoff angle. Plotting this expression as a function of v v , it is clear that the velocity hits a minimium at θ = π / 4 \theta = \pi/4

The requisite velocity for this takeoff angle is simply v = g L 2 v = \sqrt{\frac{gL}{2}} .

How can you show the minimization condition mathematically?

The minimisation condition can be shown by observing the fact that v will be minimum when sin θ cos θ \sin\theta\cos\theta is maximum . Differentiating and equating to zero for maximum gives θ = π 4 \theta = \frac {\pi}{4}

CH Nikhil - 5 years, 9 months ago

sin x cos x = sin 2 x 2 1 2 \sin x \cos x = \frac {\sin 2x}{2} \leq \frac {1}{2}

Shourya Pandey - 5 years, 2 months ago

Is the angle 45 degrees or not? If it is, shouldn't the answer be 10.4699m/s?

William G. - 5 years, 5 months ago

I love how this site makes you think about the problem critically! One suggestion... I assumed that the acceleration due to gravity was 9.8m/s in this problem, because there are no frogs on other planets (that we've discovered, anyway lol). However, the problem states that the board is friction-less (which we do not have on this planet). I may be nit-picking here, but the acceleration due to gravity should probably be added to the assumptions/details. Also, if it was changed to a lower/higher value this problem could get a bit more challenging!

david huffman - 4 years, 11 months ago

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Good point, g g is not standardized around the site.

Josh Silverman Staff - 4 years, 11 months ago

Wrong Answer. It's 7. http://mathcentral.uregina.ca/QQ/database/QQ.09.07/h/kwame1.html

Abbas Raza - 3 years, 5 months ago

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You can't simply apply the result for the range of a projectile, the board here is free to move.

Josh Silverman Staff - 3 years, 5 months ago

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I used normal projectile motion and also got 7, but the question specifies "relative to the ground" so I took the vertical component... Which was right.

Andre Bourque - 2 years, 10 months ago

More simply. The frog needs to be in the air long enough for the horizontal speed to take him 2.5m (as the board will also travel 2.5m. ) So horizontally s=vt 2.5=vt Vertically t=Δv/a where Δv=2v As v horizontal must equal v vertical 2.5=v 2v/9.81 v=3.5m/s horizontally Total speed = √2 v =4.95m/s

James Maybury - 2 years, 6 months ago

Omg I thought for ages that 'speed relative to ground' meant 'horizontal speed'.

Chris O'Brien - 1 year, 4 months ago

So we have a frog sitting on a board that sits on a frictionless table.

When the frog jumps he will exert a force of F₁=m * a on the board. The board will slide when the force exerted on it is bigger than the static frictional force of F₂=μ​ * N (with μ= static friction constant and N= nominal force=m * g) it experiences from the surface it is lying on. In this case μ​=0 (frictionless) so F₂=0. That means the board will slide as soon as any force is exerted on it and that means the frog won't be able to get any forward momentum going. So the frog's speed relative to the ground will be zero. It's like trying to jump forward on a very very slippery floor, you won't be able to get any traction going (transfer any force/momentum) and probably fall flat on your face.

The only way for the frog to reach the end of the board is to kick the board back from under him with enough force to make it travel 5m whilst he is in the air (straight up). If you want you can try to figure out what that means for the BOARD'S relative speed to the ground after having travelled 5 meters.

S Broekhuis - 3 months ago
Kanishk Parihar
Mar 11, 2016

Let the horizontal component of jump velocity of the frog be x , and the vertical component be y . Conservation of momentum (in horizontal direction) implies that the log will move with speed x in the opposite direction. [ Note that the momentum is not conserved in vertical direction as there is a normal force acting on the frog-planck system ]

The time taken for the frog to land back on the plank = 2 y g \frac{2y}{g} . And relative to the plank, the speed of the frog is 2x , so the distance it covers is 4 x y g \frac{4xy}{g} = L (the length of the planck)

So, now we know that: xy = L g 4 \frac{Lg}{4}

We have to minimize ( x 2 + y 2 ) 1 2 (x^2 + y^2)^\frac{1}{2} .

Substitute y = L g 4 x y = \frac{Lg}{4x} in this. Differentiate wrt x. Equate it to zero to minimize, to get:

x = L g 2 x=\frac{\sqrt{Lg}}{2} and y = L g 2 y=\frac{\sqrt{Lg}}{2}

So the angle is 45. and the jump speed is ( L g 2 ) = ( 5 g 2 ) \sqrt(\frac{Lg}{2}) = \sqrt(\frac{5g}{2}) = 4.94

Wrong Answer. It's 7. http://mathcentral.uregina.ca/QQ/database/QQ.09.07/h/kwame1.html

Abbas Raza - 3 years, 5 months ago

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That forgets that a frictionless board would move with equal x velocity as the frog taking off. So half the distance =2.5m

Danny Robinson - 3 years, 4 months ago

The question isn't clear. The initial horizontal velocity is 2.47, vertical velocity is 4.94, and total velocity is 5.53 (all relative to the ground). The question doesn't specify, and in fact, to me reads as total velocity.

James Johnson - 3 years, 5 months ago

It’s obvious that a frictionless board would move with equal force in the opposite direction and so halve the distance. Also, school physics on idealised projectiles shows the optimal solution is to have equal x,y force vector I.e 45degree angle. At that angle, conveniently d=(v^2)/g So swap it over dg=v^2 2.5x9.8=v^2

Approx sqr( 25) =5

Danny Robinson - 3 years, 4 months ago

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No, it's obvious that a board sitting on a frictionless table will not provide any grip to gain any forward momentum. Try jumping forward on a very very slippery surface, it won't work because there's no traction, no way to transfer force/create momentum. Therefore the frog can only jump up.

What he can do is kick the board backwards (when facing the other end) whilst jumping up in order for it to have travelled the full 5 meters underneath him when he lands.

S Broekhuis - 3 months ago

One of the most elegant solutions I have seen.

Gaurav Bhattacharjee - 3 years, 2 months ago
Antonio Fanari
Sep 12, 2015

Let A F ( 0 ) O A\equiv F(0)\equiv O be the initial position of the frog and the first point of the board, and B B the second point of the board. Let ( O , x , y ) (O,x,y) be a system of cartesian coordinates. The consevation of the momentum implies: x B = L x F ; ( 1 ) x_B = L - x_F;\,(1) The law of motion if the frog has a takeoff velocity and angle v 0 , θ 0 v_0,{\theta}_0 leads to:

x F = v 0 cos θ 0 t ; y F = v 0 sin θ 0 t 1 2 g t 2 ; ( 2 ) x_F=v_0\cos{\theta}_0 t;\,y_F=v_0\sin{\theta}_0 t - \frac {1} {2} g t^2;\,(2)

The maximum value of x F x_F is for θ 0 = π 4 , y = 0 ; ( 3 ) {\theta}_0 = \frac \pi 4,\,y=0;\,(3) and implies the minimum velocity v 0 v_0 ; Must be:

x F x B ; x_F \geq x_B; and for ( 1 ) (1) x F L 2 ; ( 4 ) x_F \geq \frac L 2;\,(4)

From ( 3 ) (3) t = 2 v 0 sin θ 0 g = 2 v 0 g ; ( 5 ) t^* =\frac{2 v_0 \sin{\theta}_0}{g}=\frac{\sqrt{2}v_0}{g};\,(5) the flying time;

From ( 2 ) , ( 3 ) , ( 4 ) , ( 5 ) (2),(3),(4),(5)\, we obtain:

v 0 2 g L 2 ; v 0 g L 2 = 9.8 × 5 2 4.95 m s v^2_0 \geq \frac {gL} 2;\,v_0 \geq \sqrt{\frac{gL}{2}}=\sqrt{\frac{9.8 \times 5}{2}}\approx \boxed {4.95 \rm {\frac m s}}

Wrong Answer. It's 7. http://mathcentral.uregina.ca/QQ/database/QQ.09.07/h/kwame1.html

Abbas Raza - 3 years, 5 months ago

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even more wrong. this is a recurring problem in many tests and all of them have the answer as 2

h c - 2 years, 9 months ago

Friction is zero frog can not jump!!!

Bahram Dilfanian - 1 year, 8 months ago

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You're right...I kept on entering 0 because he can only jump up, not forward, so the frog's speed relative to the ground will remain 0.

He could kick the board backwards as he's jumping up in an effort to make it travel the 5 meters underneath him before he lands again.

S Broekhuis - 3 months ago
Laurent Shorts
Mar 1, 2016

As their mass is the same and there must be conservation of momentum, the board will go as the same ground velocity than the frog, but in the opposite direction.

That means the frog just have to make a 5m-long jump (horizontally speaking). (The frog would have traveled 5m and the board too in opposite direction, which gives the 10m requested along the board.) Let's then forget about the board and resolve the problem for a 5m jump.

Let's assume that we know the most efficient jump is at 45°. Then vertical speed is the same as the ground speed, and let's call them both v v . Let be t t the time used to jump.

We have along the vertical axis: v t 1 2 g t 2 = 0 v·t-\frac{1}{2}g·t^2=0 as the end of the jump is at the same height at the start. This gives t = 0 t=0 (of course, the start is at the same height as the start…) and t = 2 v g t=\frac{2v}{g} .

Along the horizontal axis: v t = 5 v 2 v g = 5 v·t=5 \Leftrightarrow v·\frac{2v}{g}=5 . Therefore, v = 5 2 g v=\sqrt{\frac{5}{2}g} , which gives v = 4.9497 v=4.9497 using g = 9.8 \left|g\right|=9.8 .

Has the question changed? It reads that it is a 5m board to me, not a 10m board, thus requiring a 2.5m jump, and a velocity of 3.5 m/s (which seems to be marked wrong, but I think incorrectly.)

Bob Myers - 5 years, 2 months ago

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i did it the same way he did, with 5 meters and an angle of 45 degrees. the velocity you get from that is 7 meters per second but you then have to multiply by cos(45) to get the x-component or velocity component along the board as it says in the problem.

William G. - 5 years, 1 month ago

Wrong Answer. It's 7. http://mathcentral.uregina.ca/QQ/database/QQ.09.07/h/kwame1.html

Abbas Raza - 3 years, 5 months ago

And how is the frog going to create any forward momentum on a board that's sitting on a frictionless surface?

The board will slide when the force exerted on it overcomes the static friction, or F>μ​ * N (with μ= static friction constant and N= nominal force=m * g). Since the surface is frictionless that means μ=0 and so F>0. In other words, as soon as any force is exerted on the board it will begin to slide. It doesn't offer any resistance so it doesn't offer any reactional force. try jumping forward on a very very slippery floor....

The only thing the frog can do is jump straight up into the air and give the board a kick as he's jumping up in order for it to travel its full length underneath him before he lands again. So he'd have to determine the acceleration he needs to give the board for it to travel 5 meters in the same time that he's up in the air.

S Broekhuis - 3 months ago
Ryan Chatterjee
Aug 2, 2018

Say the frog starts at the origin ( 0 , 0 ) (0, 0) at time t = 0 t=0 , and the end of the board starts at the point ( 0 , 5 ) (0, 5) at time t = 0 t=0 . The frog's initial velocity is given by the vector

v f r o g = v x , v y \vec{v_{frog}} = \langle v_x , v_y \rangle .

Since there is no acceleration in the x-direction, the frog's velocity in the x-direction at any time will always be equal to

v x v_x ,

and thus its position along the x-axis will be

v x t v_x t .

There is a constant negative acceleration of

a = 9.8 a = 9.8

in the y-direction, so the velocity in the y-direction will be

v y a t v_y - a t

at any time t, and its position along the y-axis will be

v y t 1 2 a t 2 + x 0 v_y t - \frac{1}{2} a t^2 + x_0 ,

and plugging in a = 9.8 a = 9.8 into that equation and noting that x 0 = 0 x_0 = 0 because the frog starts at the origin, the position along the y-axis is

v y t 4.9 t 2 v_y t - 4.9 t^2 .

Conservation of momentum tells us that

M f r o g v f r o g + M b o a r d v b o a r d = 0 M_{frog} v_{frog} + M_{board} v_{board} = 0 ,

and because the mass of the frog equals the mass of the board, and because the board does not move in the y-direction, we derive that

v b o a r d = v x v_{board} = - v_x .

The point at the end of the board thus has position

( 5 v x t , 0 ) (5 - v_x t , 0)

at any time t, because it must start at ( 5 , 0 ) (5, 0) . In order for the frog to make it to the end of the board, its position has to equal the position of the point at the end of the board at some time t = T t = T . Thus we have

v x T , 4.9 T 2 + v y T = 5 v x T , 0 \langle v_x T , - 4.9 T^2 + v_y T \rangle = \langle 5 - v_x T , 0 \rangle ,

which means

v x T = 5 v x T v_x T = 5 - v_x T and

4.9 T 2 + v y T = 0 - 4.9 T^2 + v_y T = 0 .

Solving the first equation for T gives

T = 5 2 v x T = \frac{5}{2 v_x} .

Solving the second equation for T gives

4.9 T ( T v y 4.9 ) = 0 - 4.9 T (T - \frac{v_y}{4.9}) = 0 ,

T = 0 , v y 4.9 T = {0, \frac{v_y}{4.9}} ,

and because at time t = 0 t = 0 the frog is at the origin, we must have

T = v y 4.9 T = \frac{v_y}{4.9} .

Setting the two equations for T equal, we get

v y = ( 4.9 ) ( 5 ) 2 v x v_y = \frac{(4.9)(5)}{2 v_x} ,

f 1 ( v x , v y ) = v y ( 4.9 ) ( 5 ) 2 v x = 0 f_1 (v_x , v_y) = v_y - \frac{(4.9)(5)}{2 v_x} = 0 .

We want to find the minimum value of the function

f 2 ( v x , v y ) = v x 2 + v y 2 f_2 (v_x , v_y) = \sqrt{v_x ^2 + v_y ^2}

on the curve

f 1 = 0 f_1 = 0 .

A result from multivariable calculus tells us that at the point which minimizes the function along the contour curve of another function, the gradients of the two functions must be parallel, or equivalently, their normal vectors are parallel. This gives us the three equations:

v y ( 4.9 ) ( 5 ) 2 v x = 0 v_y - \frac{(4.9)(5)}{2 v_x} = 0 , from above;

f 2 = λ f 1 \bigtriangledown f_2 = \lambda \bigtriangledown f_1 for some real number λ \lambda

v x v x 2 + v y 2 = λ ( 4.9 ) ( 5 ) 2 v x 2 \Longrightarrow \frac{v_x}{\sqrt{v_x ^2 + v_y ^2}} = \lambda \frac{(4.9)(5)}{2 v_x ^2} , and

v y v x 2 + v y 2 = λ \frac{v_y}{\sqrt{v_x ^2 + v_y ^2}} = \lambda .

Multiply the factor v x 2 + v y 2 \sqrt{v_x ^2 + v_y ^2} out of the denominator of the last two equations to get:

v x 3 = λ ( 4.9 ) ( 5 ) 2 v x 2 + v y 2 v_x ^3 = \lambda \frac{(4.9)(5)}{2} \sqrt{v_x ^2 + v_y ^2} and

v y = λ v x 2 + v y 2 v_y = \lambda \sqrt{v_x ^2 + v_y ^2} .

Substituting v y v_y into the first equation, we get

v x 3 = v y ( 4.9 ) ( 5 ) 2 v_x ^ 3 = v_y \frac{(4.9)(5)}{2} ,

and the relation v y = ( 4.9 ) ( 5 ) 2 v x v_y = \frac{(4.9)(5)}{2 v_x} gives us

v x 4 = ( ( 4.9 ) ( 5 ) 2 ) 2 v_x ^ 4 = (\frac{(4.9)(5)}{2})^2 ,

and because v x v_x must be a real number, and since the frog must be moving along the x-axis in the positive sense, v x v_x must be the positive real solution to this equation,

v x = ( 4.9 ) ( 5 ) 2 = 3.5 v_x = \sqrt{\frac{(4.9)(5)}{2}} = 3.5 .

v y = ( 4.9 ) ( 5 ) 2 v x = 3.5 v_y = \frac{(4.9)(5)}{2 v_x} = 3.5 ,

and the speed will be the value

S = 3. 5 2 + 3. 5 2 = 3.5 2 4.950 S = \sqrt{3.5 ^2 + 3.5 ^2} = 3.5 \sqrt{2} \approx 4.950 .

David B
Jan 20, 2018

Solution with simple maths: Let the horizontal velocity be vx, the vertical velocity vz and the total velocity v. The time the vertical movement needs is 2vz/9.8 The time the horizontal movement needs is 2.5/vx (The frog only travels 2.5m relative to the ground because the board comes towards him with the same velocity vx) These times must be of same length -> 2.5/vx=2vz/9.8 Also: vx^2=v^2-vz^2 Squaring the first equation, substituting vx^2 with v^2-vz^2 and solving for v gives: v=✓[(150+vz^4)/vz^2] If you plot this (use x for vz) you will see that the minimal y-value is 4,95.

Cantdo Math
May 7, 2020

Using momentum conservation it is easy to see the velocity the frog jumps off is same as the velocity the board goes in the other direction.

So,to reach the other side the frog need only traverse 1 2 \frac{1}{2} the total length= 2.5 m 2.5 m

knowing the highest projectile range to be v 2 g \frac{v^2}{g} it is a matter of calculation to find the answer to be

4.94 \boxed{4.94} approximately.

Jordan Weitz
Apr 29, 2020

The actual correct answer is epsilon (namely as close to 0 as you wish). Aim almost straight up at near infinite velocity. The board slides out from underneath while the frog has almost 0 lateral velocity. Some (long) time later, the frog lands at the end of the board. To reach the conclusion of the 45 degree takeoff, you need to minimize SPEED, not ground speed.

Also, FYI, the board mass is irrelevant. Consider the problem in the frame of reference of the center of mass of the two bodies. In this frame the frog minimizes its take off speed by aiming at 45 degrees.

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