Inspired by Mehul Chaturvedi

Calculus Level 3

The polynomial

f ( x ) = 8 x 4 24 x 3 + 27 x 2 b x + c f(x) = 8x^4 - 24x ^3 + 27 x^2 - bx + c

has 4 real roots.

What is the value of b b ?


Inspiration .


The answer is 13.5.

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8 solutions

Joshua Prettyman
Jan 31, 2015

8 x 4 24 x 3 + 27 x 2 = b x c 8x^4 - 24x^3 + 27x^2 = bx-c We want to find a line y = b x c y=bx-c that intercepts the curve y = 8 x 4 24 x 3 + 27 x 2 y = 8x^4 - 24x^3 + 27x^2 at four points. Why would there only be one possible gradient of such a line? Could we not just tilt it very slightly? We are free to adjust the value of c c , the y-intercept, all we like. A little geometrical intuition tells us that this is only possible if it is a quadruple root. Indeed, differentiating y = 8 x 4 24 x 3 + 27 x 2 y = 8x^4 - 24x^3 + 27x^2 gives a cubic with an infection at the point x = 3 / 4 x=3/4 : that is, its own derivative is a quadratic with a double root at x = 3 / 4 x=3/4 . This is the point where our line must touch. Put x = 3 / 4 x=3/4 in the cubic we had to find the gradient of the quartic at that point (and thus the gradient of the tangent line y = b x c y=bx-c ) as 13.5.

Good explanation that begins to work towards the solution.

The explanation of "geometric intuition" however could use some work. For example, if the quartic that we were working with was of the form x 2 ( x a ) 2 x^2 ( x - a)^2 , then we could have the line y = 0 y = 0 , (or y = + ϵ y = + \epsilon ), which would touch it in 4 places. As such, you have to fully explain what is really going on at that point x = 3 4 x = \frac{3}{4} .

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 4 months ago
Wei Chen
Feb 9, 2015

Just plug a hole in Aditya's argument,where he relied on AM-RMS inequality and the extra condition that all roots are positive.

Instead of using AM-RMS inequality, we could use the following inequality

3 i = 1 4 α 2 2 i = 1 4 α β 3*\sum_{i=1}^4\alpha^2\geq 2*\sum_ {i=1}^4\alpha*\beta

Which is true for all real numbers of α \alpha and β \beta , no need for them to be positive, the equality holds when all numbers are equal. Since both sides of this inequality equal 27 4 \frac{27}{4} in our case, we deduce that all roots are equal, and the rest just follows Aditya's reasoning.

That is a nice approach. Almost any inequality which holds for real numbers, and the equality condition is all variables are equal, should work.

E.g. showing that ( α 3 4 ) 2 = 0 \sum ( \alpha - \frac{ 3}{4} ) ^ 2 = 0 , would allow us to conclude that the real roots must all be 3 4 \frac 3 4 .

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 4 months ago

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True, that summation works too!

Thanks for the excellent problem, and the effort to keep this community running!

Wei Chen - 6 years, 4 months ago
Calvin Lin Staff
Jan 29, 2015

Consider g ( x ) = 2 f ( x ) ( 2 x 3 / 2 ) 4 = ( 27 2 b ) x + ( 2 c 81 16 ) g(x) = 2 f(x) - ( 2x-3/2) ^ 4 = (27 - 2b) x + (2c - \frac{ 81}{ 16} ) .

When f ( x ) = 0 f(x) = 0 , this implies that ( 2 x 3 / 2 ) 4 = ( 27 2 b ) x ( 2 c 81 16 ) ( 2x - 3/2) ^ 4 = - (27 - 2b) x - (2c - \frac{ 81}{ 16} ) .

How can a perfect 4th power intersect a line at 4 points, even if we include multiplicity?

One way is for the line to be tangential to the vertex of the 4th power, which will give us 4 roots. In this case, we must have ( 27 2 b ) x ( 2 c 81 16 ) = 0 - ( 27 - 2b) x - (2c - \frac{81}{16} ) = 0 , or that b = 13.5 b = 13.5 .

If the line is not tangential to the vertex of the 4th power, consider the following:
1. The line cannot intersect the 4th power at 4 or 3 points.
2. If the line intersects the 4th power at 2 points, then neither of these points are tangent, and hence the maximum number of real roots is 2.
3. If the line intersects the 4th power at 1 point that is not the vertex, then the number of multiplicities is at most 2. Hence the maximum number of real roots is 2.


Hence, the only possible scenario gives us b = 13.5 b = 13.5 , and all of the roots are equal.

This expression gives 2 c - 81/ 16 which becomes zero with c = 81/ 32.

Then f (x) = 0.5 (2 x - 3/ 2)^4 = 0 that the 4 real roots are 3/ 4 for x.

Nevertheless, it has already been clear enough with only b mentioned where c is not precisely stated.

Lu Chee Ket - 6 years, 4 months ago

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My point is that you can use my approach to justify that b = 13.5 is the only possible solution.

Hint: What kind of polynomial is 2 f ( x ) ( 2 x 3 / 2 ) 4 2f(x) - ( 2x - 3/2) ^ 4 ?
For this kind of polynomials, how can it have 4 real roots?

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 4 months ago

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f (x) = 0.5 (2 x - 3/ 2)^4 = 0 was doing what you suggested. I have just corrected my typing mistake before this.

Lu Chee Ket - 6 years, 4 months ago

I shall think about this again. Right now, I am thinking of solving many others which are also interesting.

Lu Chee Ket - 6 years, 4 months ago

You are right, Calvin. Only if the line intersects with the power 4 curve at its vertex can have 4 real roots. In this way, only then we can conclude that b = 13.5 is the only possibility for having all real roots. This make our solution to this question complete and firm. Thanks for your clarifications.

Lu Chee Ket - 6 years, 4 months ago

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Thanks. See Wei Chen's solution above for another approach.

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 3 months ago

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The AM-RMS to specify for a = b = c = d is the correct proof.

Lu Chee Ket - 5 years, 7 months ago
Roman Frago
Feb 14, 2015

We count roots up to multiplicity.

For the equation to have 4 real roots, f'(x) should have 3 real roots. And for f'(x) to have 3 real roots, f''(x) should have 2 real roots.

f ( x ) = 32 x 3 72 x 2 + 54 x b f'(x)=32x^3-72x^2+54x-b

f ( x ) = 96 x 2 144 x + 54 f''(x)=96x^2-144x+54 . Observe that this quadratic expression has a repeated root at x = 0.75 x=0.75 .

This tells us that f ( x ) = A ( x 0.75 ) 3 + B f'(x) = A( x- 0.75)^3 + B , where A , B A, B are some constants. In order for f ( x ) f'(x) to have 3 real roots, we must have B = 0 B= 0 .

Then, with A = 32 A = 32 , we can calculate that b = 13.5 b = 13.5 .

It remains to verify that f ( x ) = 0 f(x) = 0 indeed has 4 real roots, and this is because f ( x ) = 8 ( x 0.75 ) 4 f(x) = 8 ( x - 0.75)^4 .

Moderator note:

This solution was incomplete, and failed to establish why b = 13.5 b = 13.5 had to be the only solution. I've added in the explanation to fill in the gaps.

Ooooh, that's a really nice interpretation!

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 1 month ago

well i know that if f(x) has a repeated root then f'(x) will also have that root but its opposite need not to be true so how did you conclude that 0.75 will be repeated root of both equations(original one and its derivative)?

Somesh Patil - 5 years, 8 months ago

I felt really bad for using calculus somehow....

Julian Poon - 6 years, 3 months ago

If f```x has a root 0.75 why must it be a root of f (x) Too?

Ujjwal Mani Tripathi - 5 years, 6 months ago

But it doesn't have '4 real roots', unless you count repeating roots.

Dan Parrish - 5 years, 1 month ago

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That's a valid concern.

I edited the solution and filled in the missing gaps.

Calvin Lin Staff - 5 years, 1 month ago

Please explain the line ....In order for f'(x) to have 3 reaal roots , we must have B =0

Ujjwal Mani Tripathi - 5 years, 1 month ago

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Consider the function g ( x ) = x 3 + B g(x) = x^3 + B . Under what conditions does g ( x ) g(x) have 3 real roots, counted with multiplicity? By looking at the graph, you should be able to convince yourself that:

  • If B > 0 B > 0 , there is 1 real root.
  • If B < 0 B < 0 , there is 1 real root.
  • If B = 0 B = 0 , then we have g ( x ) = x 3 g(x) = x^3 which has 3 real roots counted with multiplicity.

Calvin Lin Staff - 5 years, 1 month ago

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Thank you , Calvin

Ujjwal Mani Tripathi - 5 years, 1 month ago
Arjen Vreugdenhil
Oct 12, 2015

Apparently, any change in b b or c c would cause some of the real roots to vanish. This is only possible if f f has a minimum or maximum at a root with multiplicity at least 3.

Therefore I have good hopes that this quartic is of the form f ( x ) = a ( x r ) 4 . f(x) = a(x-r)^4. Of course we choose a = 8 a = 8 and r = 3 4 r = \tfrac34 : 8 ( x 3 4 ) 4 = 8 x 4 24 x 3 + 27 x 2 13 1 2 x + 81 32 . 8(x-\tfrac34)^4 = 8x^4-24x^3+27x^2-13\tfrac12x+\tfrac{81}{32}. Bingo! We get immediately b = 13 1 2 b = 13\tfrac12 .

The point of this problem is to justify why "Apparently any change in b or c would cause some of the real roots to vanish".

Calvin Lin Staff - 5 years, 8 months ago
Hung Woei Neoh
Jun 3, 2016

I was just simply trying out a few things to see if I can solve this, and I stumbled upon this solution:

For a quartic polynomial to have 4 4 real roots, its derivative must have 3 3 real roots ( Reference )

The derivative, f ( x ) = 32 x 3 72 x 2 + 54 x b f'(x) = 32x^3 - 72x^2 + 54x - b

The discriminant for the cubic derivative,

Δ = b 2 c 2 4 a c 3 4 b 3 d 27 a 2 d 2 + 18 a b c d = ( 72 ) 2 ( 54 ) 2 4 ( 32 ) ( 54 ) 3 4 ( 72 ) 3 ( b ) 27 ( 32 ) 2 ( b ) 2 + 18 ( 32 ) ( 72 ) ( 54 ) ( b ) = 15116544 20155392 1492992 b + 2239488 b 27648 b 2 = 5038848 + 746496 b 27648 b 2 = 6912 ( 4 b 2 108 b + 729 ) = 6912 ( 2 b 27 ) 2 \Delta = b^2c^2 -4ac^3 -4b^3d - 27a^2d^2 + 18abcd\\ =(-72)^2(54)^2 - 4(32)(54)^3 - 4(-72)^3(-b) - 27(32)^2(-b)^2 + 18(32)(-72)(54)(-b)\\ =15116544 - 20155392 -1492992b + 2239488b - 27648b^2\\ =-5038848 +746496b - 27648b^2\\ =-6912(4b^2-108b + 729)\\ =-6912(2b-27)^2

For all values of b b :

( 2 b 27 ) 2 0 6912 ( 2 b 27 ) 2 0 Δ 0 (2b-27)^2 \geq 0\\ -6912(2b-27)^2 \leq 0\\ \Delta \leq 0

For a cubic polynomial to have 3 3 real roots, Δ 0 \Delta \geq 0 . This implies that we have only one possible discriminant value

Δ = 0 6912 ( 2 b 27 ) 2 = 0 ( 2 b 27 ) 2 = 0 2 b 27 = 0 b = 13.5 \Delta = 0\\ -6912(2b-27)^2 =0\\ (2b-27)^2 = 0\\ 2b-27 = 0\\ b= \boxed{13.5}


Bonus:

You can then use the quartic polynomial discriminant to show that for b = 13.5 b=13.5 , the polynomial either has 4 4 equal real roots, 2 2 real roots or no real roots at all (though I seriously do not recommend you to try this)

To understand this section, refer to this Wikipedia page

Δ = 4 ( 32 c 81 ) 3 P = 0 Q = 0 Δ 0 = 3 ( 32 c 81 ) D = 1024 ( 32 c 81 ) \Delta = 4(32c-81)^3\\ P=0\\ Q=0\\ \Delta_0 = 3(32c-81)\\ D = 1024(32c- 81)

For c < 81 32 , Δ < 0 c < \dfrac{81}{32}, \Delta < 0 , f ( x ) f(x) has 2 2 real roots

For f ( x ) f(x) to have 4 4 real roots, c 81 32 c \geq \dfrac{81}{32}

If c > 81 32 c >\dfrac{81}{32} , then Δ > 0 , D > 0 \Delta > 0, D > 0 , which implies that f ( x ) f(x) has no real roots

Therefore, c c can only have one value: 81 32 \boxed{\dfrac{81}{32}}

When c = 81 32 , Δ = 0 , Δ 0 = 0 , D = 0 c=\dfrac{81}{32}, \Delta = 0,\; \Delta_0 = 0,\;D = 0 , which implies that f ( x ) f(x) has 4 4 equal real roots: x = b 4 a = 3 4 x=-\dfrac{b}{4a} = \dfrac{3}{4}

The polynomial is f ( x ) = 8 x 4 24 x 3 + 27 x 2 27 2 + 81 32 = 1 32 ( 4 x 3 ) 4 f(x) = 8x^4 - 24x^3 + 27x^2 - \dfrac{27}{2} + \dfrac{81}{32} = \dfrac{1}{32}\left(4x-3\right)^4

Great approach!

Calvin Lin Staff - 5 years ago

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Well, to be honest, I sort of cheated for the bonus section. I used Mathway to factorize the quartic discriminant

Hung Woei Neoh - 5 years ago
Aditya Raut
Jan 30, 2015

There's something missing in the question and it is that all roots are positive.

We now see that if roots are α , β , γ , δ \alpha, \beta,\gamma , \delta , then we have

α = 3 , α β = 27 8 \sum \alpha = 3 , \sum \alpha \beta = \dfrac{27}{8} .

Here α = α + β + γ + δ α β = α β + β γ + δ γ + α δ + β δ + α γ \sum \alpha = \alpha + \beta + \gamma + \delta \\ \sum \alpha \beta=\alpha \beta + \beta \gamma + \delta\gamma +\alpha \delta + \beta \delta + \alpha \gamma


We know that ( α ) 2 = α 2 + 2 α β (\sum \alpha)^2 = \sum \alpha^2 + 2 \sum \alpha \beta , hence we have

3 2 = α 2 + 2 × 27 8 3^2 = \sum \alpha^2 + 2 \times \dfrac{27}{8}

α 2 = 9 27 4 = 9 4 \therefore \sum \alpha^2 = 9 - \dfrac{27}{4} = \dfrac{9}{4}


If the roots are all positive, by the A.M.-R.M.S inequality, we have

α 2 + β 2 + γ 2 + δ 2 4 α + β + γ + δ 4 \sqrt{\dfrac{\alpha^2 + \beta^2 + \gamma^2 + \delta^2}{4} } \geq \dfrac{\alpha + \beta + \gamma + \delta}{4}

And equality occurs only when α = β = γ = δ \alpha =\beta= \gamma=\delta .


From the question, α 2 + β 2 + γ 2 + δ 2 4 = 9 / 4 4 = 9 16 = 3 4 \sqrt{\dfrac{\alpha^2 + \beta^2 + \gamma^2 + \delta^2}{4} } = \sqrt{\dfrac{9/4}{4}} = \sqrt{\dfrac{9}{16}} = \dfrac{3}{4}

and α + β + γ + δ 4 = 3 4 \dfrac{\alpha + \beta + \gamma + \delta}{4} = \dfrac{3}{4}

AM=RMS \implies α = β = γ = δ = 3 4 \alpha = \beta = \gamma = \delta= \dfrac{3}{4} .

This proves f ( x ) = 8 × ( x 3 4 ) 4 f(x) = 8\times \bigl(x-\frac{3}{4} \bigl)^4 , giving b = 13.5 \boxed{b=13.5}

Moderator note:

This is not a solution as it makes the extra assumption that all roots are positive.

No need of that condition @Aditya Raut !

By Descartes' Rule of Signs, , the given polynomial can have maximum 4 positive real roots & no negative real roots.Also it is given in the question that all roots are real.Hence each root is positive.

Harsh Shrivastava - 6 years, 4 months ago

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You are then making the assumption that b b and c c are positive (non-negative) numbers, which is not given.

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 4 months ago

For a fourth degree polynomial, it may only have 1 repeated root.

Roman Frago - 6 years, 3 months ago

I don't think the condition is missing. More accurately, you added in your own assumption. As such, this is not a solution for the question as posed.

Well ... can this be done without the condition that the roots are all positive?

IE Is there another value of b , c b, c that would result in 4 real roots (even possibly negative)?

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 4 months ago

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I used the discriminant of cubic and quartic polynomials to prove that if f ( x ) f(x) has 4 4 real roots, then there is only one unique ordered pair ( b , c ) (b,c) that can be used. My solution is written below

Hung Woei Neoh - 5 years ago

Oh i think they should be different, but if b = c = 0 the function also has 4 real roots

Reynan Henry - 6 years, 4 months ago

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If b=c=0, then the function is f ( x ) = x 2 ( 8 x 2 24 x + 27 ) f(x) = x^2 (8x^2 -24x+27) . The discriminant of the quadratic is 2 4 2 4 × 8 × 27 < 0 24^2 - 4 \times 8 \times 27 < 0 , so it has 2 complex roots.

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 4 months ago

Please see Wei Chen's solution above. The main difference is that he used an inequality which applies to all real numbers, which would allow us to reach the conclusion.

The takeaway is that you need to choose the "correct tool" for the job.

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 3 months ago
Lu Chee Ket
Jan 29, 2015

Let x = y + k and substitutes into the polynomial given,

With k = 3/ 4, terms of y^3 and y^2 becomes zero,

8 y^4 + (27/ 2 - b) y + [243/ 32 - (3/ 4) b + c]

Again, with b = 27/ 2,

8 y^4 + [225/ 32 + c]

Such y can easily be real with proper c.

Hence, x = y + 3/ 4 are also real.

So, b = 13.5 gives 4 real roots.

{My computing solver is faulty and doesn't give 4 real roots with these anyway.}

Can you show that b=13.5 is the only possible solution?

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 4 months ago

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From 8 y^4 + (27/ 2 - b) y + [243/ 32 - (3/ 4) b + c] = 0, it hasn't shown that b = 27/ 2 is the only possible solution. But since the question asks in the way it is, we can just find an obvious case as thought as it shall only be true. Showing that b = 13. 5 is the only possible solution shall be out of question. Upon being asked after all, I think unless the question is faulty, we may not answer.

Lu Chee Ket - 6 years, 4 months ago

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So yes, 13.5 is a possible answer to the problem. Part of writing a solution would also involve showing that this is indeed the only possible answer, else the question would be badly phrased.

Ideally, we should ignore the artificial constraints placed on this problem as a "only 1 real value", and instead strive to prove our statements factually.

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 4 months ago

My Solution shows that...

Roman Frago - 6 years, 3 months ago

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