Josh makes a cup of coffee at a station that is a few minutes' walk from his lab. The coffee is piping hot when it fills the cup and he pours soy creamer into the coffee at some point before he drinks it. The creamer is kept in a refrigerator until it is used and is much colder than the coffee.
If Josh wants the coffee to be as hot as possible when he gets back to the lab, at what point should he add the creamer to the coffee?
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I would need to see some more technical description of what actually happens, temperature-wise, to the coffee and creamer.
The coffee is presumably 170 degrees. Room temperature is 72 degrees. The creamer is presumably 38 degrees.
Given that the coffee and creamer are separately approaching room temperature until they're combined, and then approaching equilibrium and room temperature after they're combined, I don't understand how the system changes based on when the combination occurs.
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Would heat capacity play a roll? I figure coffee alone changes temperature More slowly water makes up more of its solution while creamer would change temperature more quickly.
Yes but the coffee is not only cooling compared to its surroundings but the creamer is also warming to its.
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its not that simple, if you save the creamer it will get warmer on the way to the lab. the coffe will get colder too, it all depends on the temperature of the surrounding and the time to the lab
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The questions in "Brilliant" are sometimes ambiguous - as in this case.
You're thinking is too simple.
Newtons law of cooling says the rate of heat loss is proportional to the temp difference, NOT the change in temperature. this is important because the volume of coffee is much greater than the volume of creamer (they also will have different specific heats).
the creamer will increase in temperature according to the difference in temp and the surroundings. if he adds it when he pours the coffee then that will lessen the difference between the coffee and room temperature, and hence the coffee + creamer will cool at a slower rate then the plain coffee. on the other hand if he waits, then it is true that the coffee will cool more due to greater temperature difference, but the creamer will also warm up while he is walking. We also need to consider the drop in coffee temperature due to evaporation.
If we assume he only carries the creamer volume which he will put in his coffee then it depends on the containers used. Then the answer is that he should add the creamer when he returns to the desk because the coffee is in a coffee cup, which is designed to retain heat, while the creamer is in a silly plastic container. This will allow the creamer to warm up relative to the rate at which the coffee will cool down.
On the other hand if he adds creamer immediately then that will decrease the rate of evaporation of the water in the coffee, which is very significant in cooling the coffee. This is greatly reduced in the cup is open or covered.
in the end, really they do not give nearly enough information.
The problem I have is with the wording. They state if Josh wants the coffee to be as hot as possible when he gets back to the lab, not when he begins to drink the coffee. If he wants the coffee to be hottest when he gets back to the lab, he should wait until he gets to the lab, then pour the creamer in. Of course this would make for the least warm coffee when he drinks it, but it is the correct answer for how the question is worded.
but doesn't hot molecules cool down faster then the cold ones
surely the answer is wrong then .....the later you add anything cooler than the origional liquid, the warmer that liquid will stay !!!!
Newton's Law of Cooling is completely valid, but we are not dealing with changing the temperature of one container of fluid without changing volume or surface area.
I agree with Dada Devajinana. Given the cup I use which is insulated with a sealed lid and is a cylinder that is a little narrower than it is tall. It has a low surface area and higher volume. It is well designed to conserve heat. The shape and volume of a creamer container means that there is a higher surface area to volume ratio as well as less insulation since the plastic wall of a creamer container is so thin. So the creamer would heat to room temperature faster than the coffee especially since Josh would be holding both and part of the heat exchange would be body temperature and not room temp. I made the assumption that it is a single use container else he would have to go back to the fridge and his coffee would be even cooler.
So the actual answer is it depends. If it was an open cup then evaporation not only takes the hottest part of the coffee away it is an endothermic reaction further cooling the coffee. Adding cream instead of soy would also add viscosity which would further reduce heat loss. I don't imaging soy would have as significant of an effect though I believe it would have some.
Really the only invalid answer would be at some point along the walk to the lab as everything depends on missing information.
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Hi Wayne, I don't disagree with your second paragraph, but I don't think it changes the question or answer. I also agree with the things you say in the third paragraph. One minor rejoinder: the creamer is kept in the refrigerator until it's put in the coffee.
The basic issue is that, regardless of the details of your cup, hot things lose heat faster than cold things.
Given that there is a set amount of heat in the cup, how can you minimize the rate of heat loss to the room?
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Thanks for your explanation Josh.
It appears I misinterpreted what was meant by "until it is used". It could be that use starts when you take it out of the fridge, when it is put in the cup, or when it is first drunk. The last really doesn't make sense because you would need to be in the fridge to drink it. It also didn't make sense to me that the fridge could be located in the three places or moved with the person back to their desk. Thus my assumption that used meant when it is taken out of the fridge for use.
With the wording as originally intended, it would be like asking, "If you had a glass of ice water that has had time to come to equilibrium with room temperature and a room temperature glass of water with Ice added, which would have a lower total temperature? Or is 20C -1C larger than (a value less than 20C) -1C? To me this isn't really a question I would expect on a site called "Brilliant" as most of the other questions are.
You have some really interesting and thought provoking questions on this site. I suggest not including 5th grade math questions that the only reason someone might get wrong is because they don't understand what is being asked.
This is not how I originally thought through the problem, but in an effort to explain as simply as possible consider if the creamer is SO cold that when added to the coffee the mixture is immediately brought to the exact ambient temperature. You will then conclude that the coffee will remain at ambient temperature no matter how long the walk back to the office as no heat will be lost. Contrary to that, consider if the creamer is not added and the walk is so long that by the time he gets back to the office it has fallen to nearly ambient temperature and he hasn't even added the cold creamer (from his own mini-fridge) yet. Some were getting sidetracked by the creamer warming up, but considerations of different container-types etc were clearly beyond the intent of this problem. The important point to realize is that heat transfer rate depends on temperature difference. So for a given walk time less heat will be lost with a lower average temperature difference between the coffee adn the ambient air over the course of the walk.
Problem is incomplete. We are not given enough information to calculate a solution.
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Hi Haddon, what do you feel is missing?
Add the creamer immediately is the answer sought. But the question is ambiguous as are some of the other questions in this series.
With the creamer added it is no longer coffee but it is coffee and creamer.
In general, the difference in temperature between coffee+creamer and air will be less then between coffee and air. Slower cooling. Also, coffee+creamer has larger mass then only coffee. Slower to cool?
Before adding the cream you have the surface of the coffe + the surface of the cream, coffe getting cooler and cream geting warmer. You are taking in account only the coffe, not fair.
This is the correct answer. A more complete explanation would include cooling due to evaporation, but the answer would not change as evaporation can only increase the rate of cooling (or stay the same if your relative humidity is 100%).
TO THOSE WHO SAY THERE IS NOT ENOUGH INFORMATION GIVEN, the problem states: "The creamer is kept in a refrigerator until it is used". This was a simplifying assumption on the part of the questioner. The creamer is not warming up while the coffee is cooling down, but maintains its cold temperature until it is being added to the coffee. (Perhaps Josh owns a portable creamer refrigerator, or there are various creamer fridges along the way...?)
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That phrase about the creamer being in the refrigerator didn't exist two years ago, when we first answered the problem. :) Now it's clear.
After seeing the solution I see that I did not understand what the question was.
The 3rd awnser should state that the cream is right before getting to the Office or something before asked end time. The question asked how the coffee would be the hottest when he gets to the office, but if he pours cream at the office he has made it to the office without pouring cream hence the coffee is the hottest (I recommend changing the question to "if he wants to drink the coffee at the office with the coffee being as hot as possible, when should he add the cream" , you get the idea)
The heat loss is the change in temperature with respect to time which is the derivative of the temperature. The temperature curve is not linear. It has an asymptote: the room temperature. That means that the change of temperature is also not linear. That means that cooling the coffee with the creamer at the lab will have relatively more impact than at the fridge. I think that is the main point here.
I thought the question is "If Josh wants the coffee to be as HOT as possible"
Not a good quiz question. How good is the coffee cup insulation? Is the day 120 degrees outside, in which case the unmixed creamer would warm rapidly and the coffee would cool more slowly. Or is it 20 degrees out in which case exact opposite. Does he put the little creamer container in his pocket,? if so it warms up rapidly. etc, etc. TonyM
Imagine he adds creamer at coffee station, enough to make his coffee/cream concoction room temperature, and no cooling happens on his walk back. If instead he walks back to the office, coffee cooling along the way, and then adds a similar amount of creamer, his coffee/creamer blend will have a lower final temperature. So for warmer coffee, cream it first!
I tried to solve some equations a long time ago and I'm pretty sure that you'll have the same final temperature if you do either:
Then, it's quite obvious that if you let the creamer in the fridge during this time, you'll add cooler creamer and the coffee would be cooler than if you take the creamer out of the fridge and let it warm up (which gives the same final temperature as pouring it right after coffee).
This shows also that if the creamer is always at room temperature, it won't change if you pour it right after the coffee ou just before drinking it.
More important, it also shows that the given answer here could be wrong: if the outside ambient temperature is cooler than your fridge, you better leave the creamer the longest time possible in the fridge if you want the warmest coffee.
I thought there wasn't enough information to answer this.
If steam is allowed to escape from the system during the walk is another important factor as energy leaves the system as steam. Cooling the coffee initial with creamer may allow for less steam (or energy to leave the system) during the walk.
As the boiling point also depends on the atmospheric pressure this would also be an important factor.
Pure hot water actually freezes faster than cold water. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Io2hL7tmj0
In the end since the coffee/creamer/container/environment is a very complex system one would have to do experimental research to test how different factors would effect the system, though they should be somewhat predictable.
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/General/hot_water.html
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"pure hot water actually freezes faster..." Not true. Sometimes, maybe, but https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/is-it-true-that-hot-water/ explains that the gradient difference is very important.
Depends on ambient temperature and how fast heat is lost/gained by the two containers. Assuming 50% heat lost/gained per hour and a 10 minute walk, with one ounce of creamer @40F and 12 ounces of coffee @190F, you can plot the time when the creamer should be put in. A calculation done at 64F gave about a 5 degree gain to creamer added at the end.
I like this energy-type explanation.
The sooner we add the creamer, the higher the equilibrium temperature. Otherwise, the coffee will spend time cooling.
I agree on this one. The higher temperature of coffee, the higher the equilibrium of coffee-creamer will be.
That's why it's better to pour the creamer right away after heating the coffee, where coffee temp is at max.
This depends on the air temperature. Coffee-creamer equilibrium is one thing, but the coffee will cool down during the time before and after the creamer is added as well. If the air closer to the temperature of the creamer, then you are better off adding it to the coffee first. If the air is closer to the temperature of the coffee, then you are better off waiting.
Also - the question said it wanted the coffee at the highest possible temperature when he got back to the lab. If you add the coffee once you are back at the lab, then it didn't have any cooler in it at all when you got back. And so it's hottest then.
Richard Hensman is right. The question (statement) supposes that once the cold cream added, the coffee remains hotter than air temperature. (It is not told, of course.) We add cream as soon as possible, because in (only) warm coffee, the temperature of the mix would be too low.
With a cream bringing coffee UNDER air temperature, the problem would be totally different.
Matt Parker did nice video about this some years ago: Milk first or last?
Just though someone may be interested of seeing physics in action :-)
You are not supposed to drink coffee in the lab at all. That's what the tea-room is for.
I agree with Avineil Jain. Some have asked for the math, so here's what I came up with.
First, our assumptions:
1.) The mass of the coffee and the mass of the creamer must always add to one. I.e. the cup has a finite volume, and he can only pour so much milk into the coffee before it overflows, and our calculations become meaningless. This is represented by the equation m = m c + m m , and allows us to talk about fractions of milk to coffee easily, no matter the total volume.
2.) The milk is always added at the cold temperature, and therefore has no time-dependence. In the equations, T m is always the same temperature.
3.) To first order, the coffee follows Newton's Law of cooling. Other effects, like evaporative cooling may amplify the cooling, but it turns out that doesn't change the overall SHAPE of the temperature vs. time curve. (That's the important bit here!) So as soon as it's poured, the coffee begins to lose heat according to the equation T ( t ) = T a − ( T c 0 − T a ) e − k t , where T a is the ambient temperature, T c 0 is the initial temperature, and k is the coefficient of cooling for the given substance. In this case, coffee has a very similar coefficient of cooling to water, and it varies with volume, but a good average value is k = 0 . 0 4 4 7 . (For reference, some experimental data is here ).
4.) Lastly, we assume that the milk and the coffee, when mixed, follow basic laws of Thermodynamics, and the heat lost by the coffee is gained by the milk. Mathematically: Q l o s t = − Q g a i n e d , or m c C c Δ T c 0 = − m m C m Δ T m . Expanding the Δ T c and Δ T m and rearranging to find T f , we arrive at: T ( t ) = m c C c + m m C m m c C c T c ( t ) + m m C m T m
The graph of this function is here: DESMOS!
This is an exponential decay, showing the final temperature of the coffee/milk mixture for any time that the milk is added. In order to get the hottest mixture when our hero sits down at his desk, he should pour the milk in as soon as possible. In other words, because the milk stays at the same temperature, it's the temperature of the coffee at the time of mixing that determines the final temperature. Keep that temperature as hot as you can, and you'll have a slightly warmer cup when you sit down at your desk.
The larger coffee cup will loose more heat to the air than the small creamer container will gain. Because of the larger surface area of the cup, the higher temp difference of the coffee/air vs air/creamer.
Assumptions: - (1) While walking the ambient temperature is room temperature (20C). - (2) Coffee is close to 100C (boiling point), so let's say 90C as it will cool down a bit when poured into the cup. - (3) Creamer is at fridge temperature of about 4C. - (4) Creamer volume is small enough relative to the volume of coffee that the heating up of the creamer during this time is not material, so the impact of adding the creamer right away (when it is colder) vs later (when it warms up a bit) is not material.
Loss of heat and drop in temperature is proportional to temperature difference, so the hot coffee without the creamer mixed in loses heat faster than the colder coffee with the creamer mixed in.
Technically while adding the creamer later results in a greater loss of heat from the hot coffee, it is offset slightly by the creamer warming up a bit because when the creamer is added later, it does not have as much of a cooling effect. This is hard to estimate qualitatively.
Nature likes everything in it's lower energy state ASAP
I might be doing this the wrong way, but if the creamer is in the fridge for longer it might be colder. I know this is the wrong way of answering the question, but it gives the right answer: in order for the coffee to be hotter, the creamer has to be in the fridge shorter, thus Josh has to pour the creamer immediately.
The closer the mix to the ambient temperature, the slower it will lose energy (heat) and longer it will keep warm. So, the best solution among the given is to add the creamer right after he pours the coffee. From that point on, the loses of heat are minimized.
He shouldn't be eating or drinking in the lab (OK, that depends on what kind of lab... greatest danger in bio or chem) :)
If the creamer weren't kept in a magic refrigerator running alongside Josh, it would be a different problem. However, there is usually less creamer so it would have to be very cold indeed to gain more heat from the room than the coffee loses.
The coffee will cool at whatever rate it cools. The key is to wait to add the cream when the person gets to the office. By then, although the coffee would have cooled a bit. The cream would have gotten a bit warmer. So, the key is the cream.
The larger the volume the longer it will take to cool. The coffee ex the cream will cool at a slightly faster temperature than with the cream added. With the cream added, the volume will be more and less cooling over the same period of time.
This may be the logic to the solution. Walking with the cup produces an air flow over the top of the cup cooling the coffee. Refrigerated creamer is added "at some point" If the creamer is added immediately after pouring the coffee and left floating on the top of the coffee it would produce an insulating layer keeping airflow off the coffee and so keeping the coffee hot. I'm not familiar with the properties of soy creamer
Let's assume that walking time is long enough to make the coffee at lab=way=station temperature. If he puts the cold creamer at the lab, coffee will be colder than lab temperature while if he puts it right after pouring hot coffee, it will be at lab temperature when he arrives at his lab which is higher (hotter).
Creamer being less dense than coffee, will float on the coffee. Also it is a bad conductor of heat and so it will insulate the coffee. Thus the coffee will lose lesser heat compared to if it was left exposed
it is a daily practice question.while mixing cool water to hot water before bath we mix them, immediately to save heat and reduce rate of cooling
That is a neat answer Gumperla! When I was at university in 1960 an Indian student flat mate when discussing cleanliness accused me and my English flatmates of bathing in our own dirt! Have you adopted English habits then?
The question was to have the coffee as hot as possible at his lab. He cannot drink the coffe before he gets to the lab. The max temperature he could have is to not put any creamer into the coffee when he reaches the lab, then he has to put the creamer into the coffee. Thanswer HAS to be to put the creamer in at the lab.
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According to Newton's Law of cooling, fall in temperature is directly proportional to the temperature difference between an object and its surroundings. So, less the temperature difference, slower will the object cool. Adding cream cools down the coffee and reduces the temperature difference between the coffee and its surroundings.