Lightmill

These blades are white on one side and black on the other. They are placed in a glass chamber filled with gas at very low pressure.

Why does the lightbulb make the blades rotate?

Photons from the light bulb push the blades around The light increases the temperature inside of the glass chamber The black side of the blades heats up more than the white side This can only work if the blades are driven by a motor powered by solar panels

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16 solutions

Steven Chase
Jun 26, 2017

The black surface absorbs more of the light energy than the white surface does, and thus becomes hotter. Consequently, when the molecules of the black surface interact with surrounding air molecules, they kick the air molecules away more energetically, resulting in a greater average impulse per interaction than for the white surface. The torque generated is asymmetrical, and the blades spin.

There is another version of this toy where there is a high vacuum in the bulb. The rotor goes the other way due to the greater momentum change of photons being reflected instead of begin absorbed. I think it needs stronger light (sunlight) and the rotor is bigger and the effect less strong.

Ed Sirett - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Interesting. Yeah, that makes sense

Steven Chase - 3 years, 3 months ago

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In fact I'd reckon on the toy shown being a low cost version of the original toy. Also there is a slight hint that the rotor is approaching a terminal velocity in the toy shown.

Ed Sirett - 3 years, 3 months ago

Which your correct explaination is a problem for the answers given. "The light heats up the gas inside the bulb" is technically correct. And "the black side of the blades heat up more than the white side" while true doesn't explain enough about why it rotates.

Rusty Shackleford - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Agreed. I think the explanation is that the black surface has a higher temperature (by not much probably) than the white more reflective surface. On average, gas molecules will rebound more strongly from the warmer black surface then the white surface. The NET balance in the momentum changes of ALL the collisions make a small net overall torque on the rotor.

Ed Sirett - 3 years, 3 months ago

If the black side heats up more then... the black side should heat up the air around it...making it lighter than the white side. Thus the air will move from surrounding to the area near the black surface and thus push the black side. Maybe this is the why it moves in from Right to Left.

It will be more clear if we do the same experiment with: 1)Only one black and white blade. 2) Blades having both white sides.

Soumik Roy - 3 years, 3 months ago

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1) I think the blades are sufficiently apart that they don't interact with each other. 2) If both sides have the same color, then by symmetry, the blades won't move in any direction

Pranshu Gaba - 3 years, 3 months ago

My physics teacher showed us this experiment just today and she told us that the reason the blades rotate is because light has mass. Is this right?

Lory Mazloomian - 3 years, 3 months ago

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See the comment by @Ed Sirett in the comments below. There are two conceivable light mill variants:

1) One in a gas medium, which operates as I have described, and doesn't require much light intensity.
2) One in a vacuum medium, which requires much greater light intensity, and operates based on photon momentum.

Steven Chase - 3 years, 3 months ago

Photons do not have mass, but they do have momentum. In classical mechanics momentum is mass x velocity but at the speed of light the mechanics are relativistic so anything that travels at the speed of light can't have mass but can still have momentum.

Ed Sirett - 3 years, 3 months ago

Light do have Mass but it is extremely extremely low making it not capable enough to even move a fan so with this amount of light it is far from moving the fan and you can discuss this with your teacher too

Basudeb Jena - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Light actually don’t have mass.It have energy and momentum

Venkat Praneeth Reddy - 3 years, 3 months ago

there is no (or very little) air in the chamber, so no kicking of the air molecules goes on.

Nigel Dodd - 3 years, 3 months ago

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It is already in question about the presence of gas in bulb.

Venkat Praneeth Reddy - 3 years, 3 months ago

I agree very little it probably radiates em energy straight out.

Again I wonder if it only spins as the plates heat or dies it continue to spin at steady state?

Michael Hubbard - 3 years, 3 months ago

  1. The source bulb is emitting more heat (IR radiation) then "light". Using pure visible light (by using prism for spectral isolating e. g.) would still produce more heat on the black side.
  2. Perfect vacuum in the bulb would reverse the direction of winding. The more reflecting side would provide a push by emitting photons directionally. (this is what reflexion is on macroscopic all scale.) 3.there has to be a critical degree of gas density for the equilibrium of all of the effects mentioned above.

Attila Lovasz - 3 years, 3 months ago

to be on point anything that is black can absorb light but that is not the question so i'm bumbarted

dizzy hickory - 3 years, 3 months ago

Interestingly, if instead inside the bulb it was a complete vacuum, it would still spin but in the opposite direction

Dan Wright - 3 years, 3 months ago

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it is in a vacuum

Eric Jenkins - 3 years, 3 months ago

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I guess he means, if the vacuum is big enough, it would turn the other way. If the free mean path of a molecule is big enough (the distance till a molecule hits an other molecule), you dont really have pressure differences anymore, because the molecules travel a long way till they hit an other molecule to transfer some momentum.

Timo Schneider - 3 years, 3 months ago

The correct answer was not available ... the closest answer was the one about light photons .... and further more it depends on what kind of light and what type of gas....

Bobby Wood - 3 years, 2 months ago
Michael Mendrin
Mar 5, 2018

This is actually one of the hardest "simple physics experiments" to explain fully, and neither of the two intuitive answers, one involving thermodynamic heat, the other involving photons, gives a full explanation. Since the black side is going to be hotter because of photon absorption, that answer is more correct than "photons push the blades around", but still does not explain why necessarily the blades would move. Under very slightly different conditions, the blades will not move at all, even if light is shining on the black and white vanes. The best general answer is that there exists an asymmetry, a chirality, in the way the vanes are constructed (one side black, other white), so that given light shining on it, numerous different factors could arise to give the vanes a "push" from both the black and white sides, but not necessarily exactly with equal sum of forces---and thus the vanes will rotate. Maybe, if the sum of forces don't come out too even.

On a deeper level, what I like about this "simple experiment" is that much of the time in physics, there's a conservation law, where "everything balances out in the end", no matter how much you try to unbalance things. But, here, given all the different possible mechanisms that could result in forces upon the white and black sides, it's not necessarily true that all the forces balances out. There is no conservation law guaranteeing that here.

Your explanation seems convincing..... But isn't conservation law always remains true...in any condition... No matter what's the problem ?

Mukul Thakur - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Let's use as an analogy two balls of the same size and mass each hanging by a thread, but one is hard while the other is spongy. If both are hit with small identical balls, while ultimately the conservation laws of energy and momentum are upheld, it doesn't mean that both balls will recoil with the same speed, because one is an elastic collision while the other is inelastic. You'd have to consider internal processes in the balls to show the conservation of energy and momentum.

With this experiment, yes, ultimately, the conservation laws still holds true, but that doesn't mean that the black and white sides "recoil" with the same force. One cannot make that assumption any more than one could in trying to compare a hard ball with a spongy one. Worse, there's a lot more going on with these black and white sides than "one of them being spongy-like". It's a complex matter, and the sum of all the forces cannot be expected to be the same for the black and white sides. So, the vanes are likely to rotate, but figuring out which way it will go is not easy.

Michael Mendrin - 3 years, 3 months ago

It's less that conservation won't hold, and more that the bounds of the system and the number of factors to consider are sometimes a lot larger than we expected, enough to make it difficult to account properly.

Nathan Armstrong - 3 years, 3 months ago

I'm with you. The usual explanation listed as "correct" in Brilliant isn't a full explanation. When this experiment was first performed by William Crookes in 1873 that was his explanation. However Osborne Reynolds (of Reynolds number fame) demonstrated that the rotational velocity depended on the gas pressure within the bulb.

Victor Croasdale - 3 years, 3 months ago

if im right, then the black side of the blades are radiating heat, that result in air near the surface pushing off of the black surface, the cooler

Bo Treat - 3 years, 3 months ago

I just want to know if the blades move in both directions and how is it determined which way they move.

Priscilla Loveall - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Imagine fan blades connected to a horizontal shaft such that, when you blow air from the front they spin in a certain direction. If you then blow air from the back, that is, the opposite side, the fan will still rotate in the same direction. This should answer your question.

Bodragon BODRAGON - 3 years, 3 months ago

Protons? Don't you mean photons?

Bodragon BODRAGON - 3 years, 3 months ago

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Fixed, thanks

Michael Mendrin - 3 years, 3 months ago
Rahul Tiwari
Mar 5, 2018

Black surface being a good absorber of light,absorbs most of the light.On the contrary,the white surface being a good reflector reflects most of the light.Considering light as string of photons ,the light reflected from the white surface interacts with the gas molecules and creates a continuum of interacting molecules between the white and the black surface which is aided by the black surface absorbing the light.An impulse is created when the first layer of molecules interact with the black surface which pushes the surface and causes the blades to rotate

Even if the air does get hotter near the black surface, why does it push the vanes? is it simply beacuse there's more molecule movement near the black surface? the pressure is low, so there are few molecules to begin with.. is it the air moves up and creates a current?

Gonçalo Felício - 3 years, 3 months ago

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pressure difference

Sai Kalyaan Palla!!! - 3 years, 3 months ago

Gas molecules have greater average speed near the black surface, so when they hit the surface, they will impart a greater momentum to it.

Pranshu Gaba - 3 years, 3 months ago

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but more velocity mean less pressure, and less velocity means more pressure. its then friction and not lift, and so pressure would have nothing to do with its rotation. the direction of heat would radiation from the blades, causing a thrust effect from the gasses near the surface, resulting in the rotation we see here. finally, i figured it out, i feel better.

Bo Treat - 3 years, 3 months ago

If i get this right then with your explanation it should rotate in the other direction, shouldn't it?

Michael Füßl - 3 years, 3 months ago

I didn't really understand it at first but now I think that the blades move because of the heat on the black blades. I would rate this problem a 6 because I didn't get it at first.

Lucia Tiberio - 3 years, 3 months ago
Laura Gao
Mar 5, 2018

Black things absorb more light energy than its white counterpart that reflects all of the energy. Since it absorbs more energy, it heats up faster. The molecules of the black sides will have more kinetic energy due to the heat and will push away at the air molecules more. The asymmetry between the black and white sides pushes the blades in one direction. This causes it to spin.

Siddharth Jindal
Mar 5, 2018

I first thought that it must be a result of photon momentum, but if that effect was dominant then it would've pushed silver side more than black side as elastic collisions impart more impulse than inelastic ones. I think the increased temperature near black surface increases the local pressure there as volume expansion is constrained a bit for this gas. so this pressure must be driving the machine.

I thought it was photons too (because I remembered reading something about lightsails used in space), but I considered that the effect may not be too significant from just one lightbulb and not that instantaneous.

Muyiwa Francis - 3 years, 3 months ago

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The effect due to photons is certainly instantaneous, because they travel at the speed of light. However, a much brighter source would be required to produce the same effect. With photons, the blades would rotate in the opposite direction to the one shown in the gif.

Pranshu Gaba - 3 years, 3 months ago
Basudeb Jena
Mar 7, 2018

As black objects absorb more light than light colored objects the black fan gets heated up faster as compared to white fan which heats up the surrounding air near it creating a low pressure than the white coloured Fan's surrounding air and because of the pressure difference the air rushes to the black fan making it move and rotating the fan .

Kino Bacaltos
Mar 9, 2018

Even though it has a complex explanation, which I'm not gonna put here, it's still obvious because of how the sides of the blades are made and some things about light and heat.

Sumana Bk
Mar 9, 2018

Black surface heats up faster thereby heating up the air on its side of the blade. This expands the gas, reducing the pressure on the black side, which causes the blades to be pushed towards the black side as the air/gas on white side is denser and is exerting more pressure.

Michael Hubbard
Mar 9, 2018

I suppose the very low pressure is the reason the slight pressure differential from the sides being a different temp is relevant.

Is it the changing temperature I mean does it stop rotating ion steady state? Probably..

I guess of the chamber were at a higher pressure the radiation would heat up the air in in uniform or randomly so it wouldn't rotate much. ..

Brent Thomas
Mar 9, 2018

The black surface of the blade absorbs more energy than the white side and becomes hotter. This results in the black side of the blade expanding more than the white side resulting in force on the blade acting in the direction of the white side. This force acting at a distance from the center of rotation creates torque and causes the blades to spin.

Sharon Devlin
Mar 7, 2018

This was just common sense

That is a great explanation, I totally understand it now.

Rune Knappskog - 3 years, 3 months ago
Chris Topher
Mar 7, 2018

What is this thing called?

This is called a Crookes radiometer .

Pranshu Gaba - 3 years, 3 months ago

Two intuitive answers. At the very least, one could solve this with simple principals in mind. First, black surfaces will absorb more energy and an increase in energy implies the reverse can occur, expelling energy. That is the most of it. The second is the photon push idea, but understand that this bulb is not a vacuum. These principles apply in space, but not when an object must overcome an atmosphere. This is a safe assumption because, even if you make the hopeful assumption that the bulb could avoid imploding, another answer suggested that there is gas inside.

Right, we can also rule out photons pushing, because if it was because of photons pushing, then it would be rotating in the opposite direction to what we see in the animation. Photons reflect off the white side, but get absorbed by the black side, so the white sides have more momentum imparted to them.

Pranshu Gaba - 3 years, 3 months ago
Yogesh Bile
Mar 6, 2018

Black side of the blade absorbs more radiations than white side. As a result, air in contact with black side starts to expand, gets lighter, and push the black side up with more force compared to white side. There is horizontal component of the push which is more on black side and therefore, rotates the wheel in that direction.

Ziad Elshahawy
Mar 6, 2018

let's begin with the color. black is a color which absorb all of the visible light while the white ones reflect it. you can use the pressure method that is pressure increases as heat increases so the black one has a higher pressure than the white one which will cause them to spin. i wish i could help you

Rajanikant Swami
Mar 4, 2018

For black surface e is greater than white. So black sides warm quickly. They push the white side.

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