Marble in a bowl

Consider an immovable bowl in the shape of a perfect hemisphere with radius R = 19 cm , R = 19 \text{ cm}, as shown in the diagram below. Now, place a spherical marble with radius r = 1 cm r = 1 \text{ cm} on the edge of the bowl ( ( point A ) A) and let it roll.

How long does the marble take to reach the bottom of the bowl ( ( point B ) ? B)?

Assume that g = 10 m / s 2 . g = \SI[per-mode=symbol]{10}{\meter\per\second\squared}.

0.1 s 0.3 s 0.5 s 0.7 s 1 s

This section requires Javascript.
You are seeing this because something didn't load right. We suggest you, (a) try refreshing the page, (b) enabling javascript if it is disabled on your browser and, finally, (c) loading the non-javascript version of this page . We're sorry about the hassle.

4 solutions

Markus Michelmann
Sep 11, 2017

We consider the conservation of energy with 3 different contributions:

potential energy: E pot = m g y kinetic energy: E kin = 1 2 m v 2 rotational energy: E rot = 1 2 I ω 2 E total = E pot + E kin + E rot = 0 \begin{aligned} \text{potential energy:} \qquad E_\text{pot} &= m g y \\ \text{kinetic energy:} \qquad E_\text{kin} &= \frac{1}{2} m v^2 \\ \text{rotational energy:} \qquad E_\text{rot} &= \frac{1}{2} I \omega^2 \\ E_\text{total} = E_\text{pot} + E_\text{kin} + E_\text{rot} &= 0 \end{aligned}

with mass m m , velocity v = r ω = R ϕ ˙ v = r \omega = R \dot \phi , angular velocity ω \omega and moment of inertia I = 2 5 m r 2 I = \frac{2}{5} m r^2 for a solid sphere. With y = R sin ϕ y = -R\sin \phi follows

E total = m g R sin ϕ + 0.7 m R 2 ϕ ˙ 2 = 0 d ϕ d t = g 0.7 R sin ( ϕ ) d ϕ sin ( ϕ ) = g 0.7 R d t 0 π / 2 d ϕ sin ( ϕ ) = g 0.7 R T T 2.622 g 0.7 R = 0.302 s \begin{aligned} & & E_\text{total} &= - m g R \sin \phi + 0.7 m R^2 \dot \phi^2 = 0 \\ \Rightarrow & & \frac{d \phi}{dt} &= \sqrt{ \frac{g}{0.7 R}} \sqrt{\sin(\phi)} \\ \Rightarrow & & \frac{d \phi}{\sqrt{\sin(\phi)}} &= \sqrt{\frac{g}{0.7 R}} dt\\ \Rightarrow & & \int_{0}^{\pi/2} \frac{d \phi}{\sqrt{\sin(\phi)}} &= \sqrt{ \frac{g}{0.7 R}} T\\ \Rightarrow & & T &\approx \frac{2.622}{\sqrt{\frac{g}{0.7 R}}} = 0.302 \, \text{s} \end{aligned}

The non-linear differential equation was solved by separation of variables and the specific integral was evaluated numerically (with the help of Wolfram Alpha).

Yes ,the integral can only do numerically.. But is it another way to do it by hand?

Kelvin Hong - 3 years, 8 months ago

Log in to reply

You can't do it by hand, since it's an elliptic integral

J L Lagrange - 3 years, 8 months ago

Why do you use big R to calculate velocity v? center mass of marble are at distance (R-r) from bowl center. so I think we should use v = (R-r)*𐌘 to calculate Ekin.

Alex L - 3 years, 8 months ago

Log in to reply

You are right. I use R-r to get 0.2999.

Kelvin Hong - 3 years, 8 months ago

I used the Pendulum approximation, where g is reduced as g / ((1 + 2/5 * R^2 / (R-r)^2)(R-r)). This gives T=0.253s.

Andrey Zharkikh - 3 years, 8 months ago

Can someone tell me what I did wrong? I used energy to find a function for the speed of the center of mass of the ball, which was sqrt((18/7)sin(Φ)). I think this is right because if you divide sqrt(18/7) by .18, you get the same function for Φ' as in the above answer. I then tried to find the average value of the speed by integrating the speed function from 0 to pi/2 and dividing by pi/2 and dividing the distance travelled by the center of mass pi*.18/2 by that value but this gives an answer of .223s.

Alan Fruge - 3 years, 8 months ago

Log in to reply

To find the time you should find the average speed over time instead of over angle.

Rohit Gupta - 3 years, 8 months ago
Jerry Barrington
Sep 28, 2017

I used the old "back of an envelope" method. In freefall, it would take approximately 0.19 s to fall the 18 cm. Deflection by the bowl would make it take somewhat longer, but not greatly so. 0.3 s is therefore the sane answer. :)

Hahaha when common sense beats on Physics knowledge :P

Seb Wilkes - 3 years, 8 months ago

How do you go from 0.19 to 0.3? I do not see it..

Agnishom Chattopadhyay - 3 years, 8 months ago

Log in to reply

Because it's multiple choice, and 0.3 was the next highest choice.

Rory Collier - 3 years, 8 months ago
Arjen Vreugdenhil
Sep 25, 2017

The ball travels along a circle of radius R = 0.18 m R = \SI{0.18}{m} . It acts much like a pendulum of length R R , but static friction is a retarding force. We analyze the forces:

  • Force of gravity m g mg ; the component parallel to the bowl is m g sin θ mg\sin\theta .

  • Normal force; has no parallel component.

  • Static friction F s F_s ; directed parallel to the bowl, opposing the motion. It also generates a torque τ = F s r \tau = F_sr on the ball.

For the rotational acceleration we find (with I = 2 5 m r 2 I = \tfrac25mr^2 for a solid sphere) α = τ I = 5 F s 2 m r . \alpha = \frac{\tau}I = \frac{5F_s}{2mr}. For the linear acceleration along the bowl we have a = g sin θ F s m . a_{\|} = g\sin\theta - \frac{F_s}m. Since the ball rolls without slipping, a = α r a_{\|} = \alpha r . Substituting the previous two equations allows to eliminate F s F_s ; we find a = 5 7 g sin θ . a_{\|} = \frac 5 7 g \sin \theta. Relating the linear motion along the bowl to the angle θ \theta gives a = R θ ¨ a = R\ddot\theta ; thus θ ¨ = 5 7 g R sin θ . \ddot\theta = \frac 5 7 \frac g R \sin \theta. Compare this to the equation for a normal pendulum: θ ¨ = ( g / ) sin θ \ddot\theta = (g/\ell)\sin\theta , it is easy to adjust the well-known equation for the period: T 2 π 7 R 5 g . T \approx 2\pi\sqrt{\frac{7R}{5g}}. This small-angle approximation is not exactly valid, since the ball's amplitude is 9 0 90^\circ ; however, the increase in period is only 18 % 18\% . Finally, the answer to the problem is one-fourth of a full period: t π 2 7 0.18 5 9.81 0.3 s . t \approx \frac \pi 2 \sqrt{\frac{7\cdot 0.18}{5\cdot 9.81}} \approx \boxed{\SI{0.3}{s}}.

Actually the ball falls 18 cm = 0.1897 sec. The point mass of the ball moves 36xpi/4 = 28.27 cm, therefore T = (28.27/18)x0.1897 = 29.79 sec

Still close enough for government work

Stephen Garramone - 3 years, 8 months ago

Simplistic terms: assume ball has mass of 1 gm. Ignore rotational KE. g = 1000 cm/sec^2 if ball were to fall 19 cm, t = sqrt(19/(0.5x1000)) = 0.1949 sec But ball moves 38xpi/4 = 9.5xpi = 29.85 cm Time elapsed = 0.1949 sec x(29.85/19) = 0.3062 sec q.e.d. (We ignored the KE from rotation which would a minimal amount to the elapsed time)

Stephen Garramone - 3 years, 8 months ago

Log in to reply

That is rather simplistic. Your calculation assumes that the average speed is equal to that of free fall. This would be true if the ball slid down a straight ramp, but not on a curved ramp.

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 8 months ago

bad question. ball guaranteed to initially slip unless coeff. friction = 1/0

Jack Sormaz - 3 years, 8 months ago

Log in to reply

It is worse: it requires the coefficient of friction to be infinitely large. ( μ > 1 \mu > 1 is quite possible, though.)

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 8 months ago

Log in to reply

1/0 = inf in my book :)

Jack Sormaz - 3 years, 8 months ago
Artur Moura
Sep 28, 2017

I start this by calculating the amount of space that the ball travelled using a relation between the angle that the movement describes and the length of the circumference:

  • 2 π -------- 2 π R
  • π 2 \frac{π}{2} ------- x

  • x= 2 π R π 2 π 2 \frac{2*π*R*π}{2*π*2} //

  • x= π R 2 \frac{π*R}{2} //
  • x= π 0 , 19 2 \frac{π*0,19}{2} //
  • x=0,3
  • Δs = 0,3

Now, I will use conservation of energy, since the ball hasn't lost any energy during his movement, all the potential energy got transformed into kinetic energy:

  • Epot = Ekin
  • m g h= m v ² 2 \frac{mv²}{2}
  • 10*0,19 = v ² 2 \frac{v²}{2}
  • v²=3,8
  • v=1,95

Now that I have velocity, I can go to the simplest formula of acceleration, and since the initial velocity is zero:

  • a= Δ v Δ t \frac{Δv}{Δt}
  • a= 1 , 94 Δ t \frac{1,94}{Δt}

That's all we need for now. With these elements, I can use the kinematic equation of Torricelli, notice that we only need the initial and the final state of the object, avoiding the midterm situation:

  • v²=vo²+2 a Δs
  • 3,8=0+2 1 , 94 Δ t \frac{1,94}{Δt} 0,3
  • 3,8=(\frac{1,17}{Δt})
  • Δt=(\frac{1,17}{3,8})
  • Δt=0,30

The objective of this solution was to avoid the maximum amount of complicated calculum as possible, using the simpliest equations I've found. I hope everything is right, but please let me know if I made some mistakes ( or if it's everything wrong ). Also, I'm really sorry, but I am new here and I don't really know how to work with Latex, so I made the best I could out of the tools that I've found.

A better logic can be applied

anukool srivastava - 3 years, 8 months ago

0 pending reports

×

Problem Loading...

Note Loading...

Set Loading...