Radical of Seven!

Algebra Level 3

7 7 + 7 7 + 7 = ? \large\sqrt{7-\sqrt{7+\sqrt{7-\sqrt{7+\sqrt{7-\cdots}}}}}=\ ?


The answer is 2.000.

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5 solutions

Let x = 7 7 + 7 x=\sqrt{7-\sqrt{7+\sqrt{7-\cdots}}} and y = 7 + 7 7 + y=\sqrt{7+\sqrt{7-\sqrt{7+\cdots}}} . Then, we can say that x = 7 y x=\sqrt{7-y} and y = 7 + x y=\sqrt{7+x} .

Squaring both equations: x 2 = 7 y x^2=7-y and y 2 = 7 + x y^2=7+x . Then subtract them: x 2 y 2 = ( x + y ) ( x + y ) ( x y ) = ( x + y ) x^2-y^2=-(x+y) \implies (x+y)(x-y)=-(x+y) . Since x + y 0 x+y\neq 0 , we can divide both sides by x + y x+y :

x y = 1 y = x + 1 x-y=-1 \implies y=x+1 .

Finally, substitute that in the first equation:

x 2 = 7 x 1 x 2 = 6 x x 2 + x 6 = 0 ( x + 3 ) ( x 2 ) = 0 x^2=7-x-1 \implies x^2=6-x \implies x^2+x-6=0 \\ (x+3)(x-2)=0

We take the positive solution, since x > 0 x>0 :

x = 2 x=\boxed{2} .

How do you know that this sequence converges in the first place?

Otto Bretscher - 5 years, 9 months ago

great method

Akash singh - 5 years, 9 months ago

good one..

Harikrishnan B - 5 years, 9 months ago

I've definitely seen this before...

Satvik Golechha - 5 years, 9 months ago

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Of course, you started this method :D

Alan Enrique Ontiveros Salazar - 5 years, 9 months ago
Tanishq Varshney
Aug 18, 2015

Let

y = 7 7 + 7 7 + . . . . y=\sqrt{7-\sqrt{7+\sqrt{7-\sqrt{7+....}}}}

y = 7 7 + y y=\sqrt{7-\sqrt{7+y}}

y 2 = 7 7 + y y^2=7-\sqrt{7+y}

y 4 14 y 2 y + 42 = 0 y^4-14y^2-y+42=0

( y 2 ) ( y + 3 ) ( y 2 y 7 ) = 0 (y-2)(y+3)(y^2-y-7)=0

As the answer is positive and an integer \text{the answer is positive and an integer}

so y = 2 \boxed{y=2}

Moderator note:

You're taking advantage of the fact that the answer is a positive integer. How do you know that the answer can't be the solution(s) of y 2 y 7 = 0 y^2-y-7=0 or y + 3 = 0 y+3=0 ?

Solving y 2 y 7 = 0 y^2 - y - 7 = 0 gives

y = 1 ± 29 2 y = \dfrac{1 \pm \sqrt{29}}{2}

Clearly y = 1 29 2 y = \dfrac{1 - \sqrt{29}}{2} cannot be the solution as y should be postive.

y = 1 + 29 2 > 3 y = \dfrac{1 + \sqrt{29}}{2} > 3

But y y cannot be greater than 3 3 , hence that too, is not considered.

Vishwak Srinivasan - 5 years, 10 months ago

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Why you are stressing the solution must be less than 3 ? Can you please add a note of the reason for this, I mean why the critical value is 3.

Syed Baqir - 5 years, 9 months ago

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Since square roots are positive,

7 y < 7 \sqrt{7 - y} < \sqrt{7}

where y = 7 + 7 7 + y = \sqrt{7 + \sqrt{7 - \sqrt{7 + \ldots}}} .

The value of 7 2.645 \sqrt{7} \approx 2.645

I didn't want to be too specific about the value of 7 \sqrt{7} , so I mentioned 3 3 .

Vishwak Srinivasan - 5 years, 9 months ago

we have √[7-(positive number)], so clearly the solution must be less than √7, hence less than √9

Davy Ker - 5 years, 6 months ago

Since by the other two eqns. The ans. Would come that y=-ve. However root of any no. Is not NEGATIVE

Mohit Gupta - 5 years, 10 months ago

This all makes sense but how do you factorise a quartic equation like that?

Richard Plender - 5 years, 9 months ago

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Well, you can use 'Rational Root Theorem', but it is 'trial and error' sort of thing.

Vishwak Srinivasan - 5 years, 9 months ago

See my previous reply for a fast idea.

Omar Othman - 5 years, 9 months ago

how to factorize the quartic equation?

Akash singh - 5 years, 9 months ago

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I solved it in the exact same way but went down the lazy road and visited this site after googling for "quartic equation solver online".

Omar Othman - 5 years, 9 months ago

y is a root of something. And root cant be negative or imaginary.

Neeraj Sethi - 5 years, 8 months ago

"dynamic value" = constant value - or + "dynamic value"? Are you sure about this answer?

Jet Sirilim - 5 years, 7 months ago

this went over my head. can you please explain what you did after the third step. I am still learning about this stuff.

Maha Agro - 5 years, 7 months ago
Sai Ram
Aug 22, 2015

Let

y = 7 7 + 7 7 + . . . . y=\sqrt{7-\sqrt{7+\sqrt{7-\sqrt{7+....}}}}

y = 7 7 + y y=\sqrt{7-\sqrt{7+y}}

y 2 = 7 7 + y y^2=7-\sqrt{7+y}

y 4 14 y 2 y + 42 = 0 y^4-14y^2-y+42=0

( y 2 ) ( y + 3 ) ( y 2 y 7 ) = 0 (y-2)(y+3)(y^2-y-7)=0

As the answer is positive and an integer \text{the answer is positive and an integer}

so y = 2 \boxed{y=2}

how did you factorize?

Yahya Salah - 5 years, 9 months ago

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See my reply to the previous solution for a fast idea.

Omar Othman - 5 years, 9 months ago

Good solution

Rama Devi - 5 years, 9 months ago
Arturo Presa
Nov 13, 2015

As @Otto Bretscher said above the convergence of the corresponding sequence is very important in this problem and it is the real challenging part. Here we are going to try to justify the convergence of the given expression. Let us define the function f ( x ) = 7 7 + x f(x)=\sqrt{7-\sqrt{7+x}} defined on the interval [ 0 , 3 ] [0, 3] . We claim that f ( [ 0 , 3 ] ) [ 0 , 3 ] . ( 1 ) f([0, 3])\subset [0,3].\:\:\;\;\:\:\;\:(1) Let us prove it. The function f ( x ) f(x) has derivative f ( x ) = 1 4 x + 7 7 x + 7 f '(x)=-\frac{1}{4\sqrt{x+7}\sqrt{7-\sqrt{x+7}}} that is negative at any value of x [ 0 , 3 ] . x\in [0, 3]. Then f ( x ) f(x) is a decreasing function on [ 0 , 3 ] . [0, 3]. Therefore, for any value of x x in [ 0 , 3 ] [0, 3] the value f ( x ) f(x) is in [ f ( 3 ) , f ( 0 ) ] [f(3), f(0)] that is a subset of [ 0 , 3 ] [0, 3] , and then f ( x ) [ 0 , 3 ] . f(x)\in [0, 3]. This proves our claim.

Besides that, we can prove, using calculus as well, that f ( x ) |f '(x)| is decreasing on the interval [ 0 , 3 ] [0, 3] and, therefore, max x [ 0 , 3 ] f ( x ) = f ( 0 ) = k = 1 4 7 7 7 < 1. \max_{x\in [0,3]}|f '(x)|=|f '(0)|=k=\frac{1}{4\sqrt{7}\sqrt{7-\sqrt{7}}}<1. Using the Mean Value Theorem, for any x 1 x_1 and x 2 x_2 in [ 0 , 3 ] [0, 3] the following inequality is true f ( x 2 ) f ( x 1 ) k x 2 x 1 |f(x_2)-f(x_1)|\leq k |x_2 -x_1|\:\:\:\;\;\:\:\: Let us represent the composition f f f . . . f , f \circ f \circ f \circ...\circ f, where the f f is repeated n n times, by f n . f_{n}. From (1), we obtain that f n f_{n} is well defined on the interval [ 0 , 3 ] [0, 3] and f n ( [ 0 , 3 ] ) [ 0 , 3 ] . f_{n}([0, 3])\subset [0,3]. Additionally, it is very easy to prove that for any natural number n n f n ( x 2 ) f n ( x 1 ) k n x 2 x 1 ( 2 ) . |f_{n}(x_2)-f_{n}(x_1)|\leq k^n |x_2 -x_1|\:\:\:\;\;\:\:\: (2). Now let us defined a sequence by the following recurrence x n = f n ( 0 ) . x_n=f_{n}(0). Since f n ( [ 0 , 3 ] ) [ 0 , 3 ] , f_{n}([0, 3])\subset [0,3], we can obtain that x n [ 0 , 3 ] . x_n \in [0,3]. The expression given in the problem is nothing more than lim n x n . \lim_{n\to \infty}x_n. Then we have to prove that x n x_n is convergent and its limit is 2 2 . Indeed, let us consider two integers m m and n , n, where m > n m>n . Using (2) we get x m x n f m ( 0 ) f m 1 ( 0 ) + f m 1 ( 0 ) f m 2 ( 0 ) + . . . + f n + 1 ( 0 ) f n ( 0 ) | x_m -x_n| \leq|f_{m}(0)-f_{m-1}(0)|+|f_{m-1}(0)-f_{m-2}(0)|+...+|f_{n+1}(0)-f_{n}(0)|\leq ( k m 1 + k m 2 + . . . + k n ) f ( 0 ) k n ( 1 + k + k 2 + . . . + k m 1 n ) f ( 0 ) \leq ( k^{m-1}+k^{m-2}+...+k^{n}) f(0)\leq k^n(1+k +k^2+...+k^{m-1-n})f(0)\leq k n 1 k f ( 0 ) . \leq \frac{k^n}{1-k}f(0). Since k < 1 k<1 the sequence ( x ) n (x)_n is a Cauchy sequence and then it converges. For definition and properties of Cauchy sequences you can see for example here.

Let us assume that lim n x n = c . \lim_{n\to \infty}x_n=c. As x n [ 0 , 3 ] x_n \in [0, 3] then c [ 0 , 3 ] . c\in [0, 3]. Now since x n + 1 = f n + 1 ( 0 ) = f ( f n ( 0 ) ) = f ( x n ) , x_{n+1}=f_{n+1}(0)=f(f_{n}(0))=f(x_n), using the continuity of f f and taking limits as n n tends to infinity, we obtain that c = f ( c ) . c=f(c). By inspection we can obtain that a solution of this equation is c = 2. c=2. As f ( x ) f(x) is decreasing on [ 0 , 3 ] , [0, 3], this is the only solution in this interval. In this way we eliminate the necessity of raising both sides to powers and then the appearance of extraneous solutions difficult to discard. Therefore the given expression of the problem converges and its value is 2. This can answer the question of my student @Jesus Rodriguez

Second Method (without using Cauchy sequences)

Assuming that the function f ( x ) f(x) and the sequence ( x n ) n (x_n)_n is defined as we did above. It is easy to see that 2 < x 3 < x 1 . 2<x_3<x_1. Since f : [ 0 , 3 ] [ 0 , 3 ] f:[0, 3] \rightarrow [0, 3] is decreasing then the function f 2 f_{2} will be increasing, and, therefore, f 2 n f_{2n} will be increasing too for any natural number n . n. Applying f 2 n f_{2n} to each side of the inequality 2 < x 3 < x 1 , 2<x_3<x_1, and using that f 2 ( 2 ) = 2 , f_{2}(2)=2, we obtain that 2 < x 2 n + 3 < x 2 n + 1 . 2<x_{2n+3}<x_{2n+1}. So the sequence ( x 2 n + 1 ) n (x_{2n+1})_n is decreasing and it is bounded below by 2. Therefore, by the theorem of convergence of monotone and bounded sequence, lim x x 2 n + 1 \lim_{x\to \infty }x_{2n+1} exists. Let us denote it by c c . Taking limits in both sides of the equality x 2 n + 3 = f 2 ( x 2 n + 1 ) , x_{2n+3}=f_{2}(x_{2n+1}), we obtain that c = f 2 ( c ) . c=f_{2}(c). It can be proved that the derivative of f 2 f_{2} has absolute value less than 1 on [ 0 , 3 ] [0, 3] (look my first version of the proof above), then it is always different from 1, so the given equation for c c has only one solution in this interval and you can check that the solution must be 2. So lim x x 2 n + 1 = 2. ( 1 ) \lim_{x\to \infty }x_{2n+1}=2. \:\:\: \:\:\:\:\:\:\:\:\:\;\;\:\:\:\:\:\: \:\:\:\:\:\:\:\: \:\:\:\:\:(1) Using that x 2 n + 2 = f ( x 2 n + 1 ) , x_{2n+2}=f(x_{2n+1}), we obtain that lim n x 2 n + 2 = lim n f ( x 2 n + 1 ) = f ( lim n x 2 n + 1 ) = f ( 2 ) = 2 ( 2 ) . \lim_{n\to \infty}x_{2n+2}=\lim_{n\to \infty}f(x_{2n+1})=f(\lim_{n\to \infty}x_{2n+1})=f(2)=2\:\:\:\:\:\:\;\:(2). From (1) and (2), we get that lim n x n = 2. \lim_{n\to \infty}x_{n}=2.

Arturo Presa - 5 years, 7 months ago
Ajdin Arnautovic
Sep 12, 2015

I have also good one, let S=sqr( 7+sqr(...) ) , then it implies sqr(7-S)=sqr( 7-sqr(7+7-S) ) , squaring both sides we get: 7-S=7-sqr(14-S) then S=sqr(14-S) ,square again and we get quadratic equation with condition that S>0 because its sqr(7+sqr...). After that we can write it as S^2=14-S => S^2+S-14=0 =>(S-3)(S+4)=0. Obviously because S>0 we can conclude S=3. Now we go back to problem and we can write it as sqr(7-3)=sqr(4)=2 :)

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