Piling coins (piling in bins 3/4)

Kelly has 10 different coins about the same size and wants to put them in 3 piles. The order of the coins in each pile is important, but the piles don't have any particular order.

How many ways are there to do that?

Details and assumptions:

A pile of coin(s) is a pile only if it has at least a coin in it.


Part of the Piling distinct objects in bins set.


The answer is 21772800.

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2 solutions

Laurent Shorts
Feb 5, 2017

1) Let's start with pile with some order, and all coins identical. Put one coin in each pile and then, there is ( ( 3 10 3 ) ) = ( 9 7 ) = 36 \Big(\!\!\Big(\begin{matrix}3\\10-3\end{matrix}\Big)\!\!\Big)={9 \choose 7}=36 ways to do that.

2) Now, assign a different value to each coin: 10 ! = 3 62 8 800 10!=3'628'800 ways to do it.

3) We don't want any order for the 3 piles: divide by 3 ! = 6 3!=6 .

Answer is ( ( 3 10 3 ) ) 10 ! 3 ! = 36 3 62 8 800 6 = 2 1 77 2 800 \Big(\!\!\Big(\begin{matrix}3\\10-3\end{matrix}\Big)\!\!\Big)·\dfrac{10!}{3!}=36·\dfrac{3'628'800}{6}=\boxed{21'772'800} .


Notations: C p n = ( ( n p ) ) = ( n + p 1 p ) \overline{C}^n_p=\Big(\!\!\Big(\begin{matrix}n\\p\end{matrix}\Big)\!\!\Big)=\Big(\begin{matrix}n+p-1\\p\end{matrix}\Big) is the multicombination (combination where repetitions are permitted). See stars and bars .


Generic formula for c c coins and p p piles: ( ( p c p ) ) c ! p ! = ( c 1 c p ) c ! p ! = ( c 1 ) ! c ! ( c p ) ! ( p 1 ) ! p ! \Big(\!\!\Big(\begin{matrix}p\\c-p\end{matrix}\Big)\!\!\Big)·\dfrac{c!}{p!} = {{c-1} \choose {c-p}}·\dfrac{c!}{p!} = \dfrac{(c-1)!·c!}{(c-p)!·(p-1)!·p!}


Aside note: (not needed to solve problem) This is Lah number L ( 10 , 3 ) = 10 3 = 2 1 77 2 800 L(10,3)=\left\lfloor\begin{array}{c}10\\3\end{array}\right\rfloor = 21'772'800 .

We have n k = ( n 1 k 1 ) n ! k ! = n ! ( n 1 ) ! ( n k ) ! k ! ( k 1 ) ! \left\lfloor\begin{array}{c}n\\k\end{array}\right\rfloor = \left(\begin{array}{c}n-1\\k-1\end{array}\right) \dfrac{n!}{k!} = \dfrac{n!\,(n-1)!}{(n-k)!\, k!\,(k-1)!}

Another way to get to the answer:

As the pile have no order, select without order 3 coins to be the bottoms of the piles: ( 10 3 ) = 120 {{10} \choose 3}=120 .

Now, each pile is different because it is labelled with its first coin. Now, we just have to put the 7 remaining coins in the 3 piles, with some order: C 7 3 7 ! = ( 9 7 ) 7 ! = 36 5040 = 18 1 440 \overline{C}^3_{7}·7!={9 \choose 7}·7!=36·5040=181'440 .

Answer is ( 10 3 ) C 7 3 7 ! = 120 36 5040 = 2 1 77 2 800 {{10} \choose 3}·\overline{C}^3_{7}·7!=120·36·5040=21'772'800 .

Laurent Shorts - 4 years, 4 months ago

Can you explain the C \overline{C} notation?

Agnishom Chattopadhyay - 4 years, 4 months ago

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I added the explanation. Thank you to pointing at it.

I should use the double bracket notation, but it's more difficult to do with LaTeX code :)

Laurent Shorts - 4 years, 4 months ago

Hey Laurent, correct me if I'm wrong, but I seriously doubt that we need to know what Lah numbers and multicombinations are to solve this problem. All we have to do is to identify that it's a stars and bars question, and remove any double counting, right?

Pi Han Goh - 4 years, 4 months ago

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You're right, there's no need to know what a Lah number is. That was added in a second part only as a bit of mathematical culture for those who would be interested.

For the multicombination, that is simply the name of what we are doing when we use the stars and bars formula. I think it's better to write down C p n \overline{C}^n_p or ( ( n p ) ) \Big(\!\Big(\!\begin{matrix}n\\p\end{matrix}\!\Big)\!\Big) than directly ( n + p 1 p ) \Big(\!\begin{matrix}n+p-1\\p\end{matrix}\!\Big) . That's like telling people to use the quadratic formula to solve a x 2 + b x + c = 0 ax^2+bx+c=0 without daring to say that we're solving a second degree equation :)

Laurent Shorts - 4 years, 4 months ago
Ashish Gupta
Feb 12, 2017

Thank you for our answer. It is correct, though it could be a bit difficult to list every possibility with more piles and coins.

You don't need Lah number, unless you just want to pick the answer directly from a table of values or use the formula to get the value. You can use instead the three steps I explained in my solution.

Laurent Shorts - 4 years, 3 months ago

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Actually, I had a doubt in your solution. What is the notation C-3-(10-7) ? I could not understand that and thought that it must have had something to do with lah's number.

Ashish Gupta - 4 years, 3 months ago

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C p n = ( n p ) C^n_p={n \choose p} , the combination when you take p p different elements from n n possibilities.

C p n = ( ( n p ) ) \overline{C}^n_p=\Big(\!\!\Big(\begin{matrix}n\\p\end{matrix}\Big)\!\!\Big) , the multicombination when you take p p elements from n n possibilities, allowing multiple times the same element. The formula, known as stars and bars , is ( ( n p ) ) = ( n + p 1 p ) \Big(\!\!\Big(\begin{matrix}n\\p\end{matrix}\Big)\!\!\Big)={{n+p-1} \choose p} .

Laurent Shorts - 4 years, 3 months ago

@Ashish Gupta

Shouldn't it be

8 ! 1 ! 1 ! + 7 ! 2 ! 1 ! + 1 ! 3 ! 6 ! + 1 ! 4 ! 5 ! + 2 ! 2 ! 6 ! + 2 ! 3 ! 5 ! + 2 ! 4 ! 4 ! + 3 ! 3 ! 4 ! 8! * 1! *1! + 7! *2!*1! + 1!*3!*6! + 1!*4!*5! + 2!*2!*6! + 2!*3!*5! + 2!*4!*4! + 3!*3!*4! ?

Since it is written "the order of coins" of matter and piles are identical because if coins are different and I have to make 3 piles then this must be logic. I cannot have a "pile number".

Kartik Sharma - 4 years, 3 months ago

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With (8,1,1), you first have to choose the 8 coins you want in the big pile. That multiplies by ( 10 8 ) {10 \choose 8} for this first part. 8 ! ( 10 8 ) = 10 ! 2 8!·{10\choose 8}=\frac{10!}2 , and you'll see that for each part, it gives either 10 ! 10! , either 10 ! 2 \frac{10!}2 , which is exactly what is done in Ashish solution.

Laurent Shorts - 4 years, 3 months ago

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Okay, I got it. Thanks!

Kartik Sharma - 4 years, 3 months ago

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