Does there exist a positive integer n such that 2 × 3 × … ( n − 1 ) × n > 3 ?
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The formatting on the original question leaves something to be desired as it is currently it is unclear what is being asked. Specifically it is unclear whether all roots are square roots or cube roots etc... Reading the solution makes it clear that all roots were square roots and that all numbers are multipliers and not roots beyond the square root.
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Thanks. I've edited the question for clarity.
The situation that you're thinking of has an extremely different formatting, namely
2 3 . . . n − 2 n − 1 n ≥ 3
If I read this question right, it is not a matter of different power roots. Instead, we want to know whether it is possible for m = 2 ∏ n m 2 m − 1 1 to be greater than 3 . Taking logarithms, we want to know whether it is possible that m = 2 ∑ n 2 m − 1 ln m > ln 3 Since the infinite sum m = 2 ∑ ∞ 2 m − 1 ln m can be evaluated in terms of polylogarithms, m = 2 ∑ ∞ 2 m − 1 ln m = − 2 ( ∂ u ∂ L i u ( z ) ) ∣ ∣ ∣ u = 0 , z = 2 1 = 1 . 0 1 5 6 6 7 8 < 1 . 0 9 8 6 1 2 3 = ln 3 and is less than ln 3 , the answer is no .
How to evaluate this infinite sum?
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you could try to use the upper bound of the sum through an integral. But this use some specials functions (the "exponential integral") and is not a very neat proof (IMO). Not that I have anything better to offer...
We have m = 2 ∑ ∞ 2 m − 1 ln m = − 2 ( ∂ u ∂ L i u ( z ) ) ∣ ∣ ∣ u = 0 , z = 2 1 = 1 . 0 1 5 6 6 7 8 < 1 . 0 9 8 6 1 2 3 = ln 3 using a derivative of the polylogarithm function.
Of course, the original series converges pretty rapidly, and so we could quickly show that its sum was less than 3 without evaluating it explicitly. For example, k < 1 . 0 2 k for k ≥ 5 0 , and k ≥ 5 0 ∑ 2 k − 1 ln k < ln 1 . 0 2 × k ≥ 5 0 ∑ 2 k − 1 k < 3 . 6 × 1 0 − 1 5 and we can calculate k = 2 ∑ 4 9 2 k − 1 ln k readily enough and see that it is smaller than ln 3 − 3 . 6 × 1 0 − 1 5 .
I don't know if anyone is still looking at these old problems, but I just wanted to add a solution that involves only simple hand calculations.
My start was very similar to Mark's and I got the same infinite sum.
S = k = 2 ∑ ∞ 2 k − 1 l n ( k ) ( E q u a t i o n 1 )
Notice that a term for k = 1 can be added since that term will be 2 0 l n ( 1 ) = 0 .
S = k = 1 ∑ ∞ 2 k − 1 l n ( k )
Substitute k − 1 for k in this last equation so that this equation for S sums from k = 2 to ∞ the same way E q u a t i o n 1 does.
S = k = 2 ∑ ∞ 2 k − 2 l n ( k − 1 )
Now the indices match between this equation and that of E q u a t i o n 1 , but the denominators corresponding to the same index do not. Pull out a factor of 2 from every element in this series so that the denomitators are the same in the two series.
S = 2 k = 2 ∑ ∞ 2 ⋅ 2 k − 2 l n ( k − 1 )
2 1 S = k = 2 ∑ ∞ 2 k − 1 l n ( k − 1 ) ( E q u a t i o n 2 )
Subtract E q u a t i o n 2 from E q u a t i o n 1 :
S − 2 1 S = k = 2 ∑ ∞ 2 k − 1 l n ( k ) − k = 2 ∑ ∞ 2 k − 1 l n ( k − 1 )
2 1 S = k = 2 ∑ ∞ [ 2 k − 1 l n ( k ) − 2 k − 1 l n ( k − 1 ) ]
2 1 S = k = 2 ∑ ∞ 2 k − 1 l n ( k ) − l n ( k − 1 )
2 1 S = k = 2 ∑ ∞ 2 k − 1 l n ( k − 1 k )
S = 2 k = 2 ∑ ∞ 2 k − 1 l n ( k − 1 k )
Pull out the first term:
S = 2 ⋅ 2 l n ( 1 2 ) + 2 k = 3 ∑ ∞ 2 k − 1 l n ( k − 1 k )
S = l n ( 2 ) + 2 k = 3 ∑ ∞ 2 k − 1 l n ( k − 1 k )
The numerator of the first remaining term in the series is l n ( 2 3 ) . Because the series k − 1 k decreases monotonically toward 1 for increasing values of k , all of the remaining numerators in the series will be smaller than l n ( 2 3 ) . By replacing every numerator in the remaining infinite sum with l n ( 2 3 ) , the result will be something that is strictly greater than S .
S = l n ( 2 ) + 2 k = 3 ∑ ∞ 2 k − 1 l n ( 2 3 )
S < l n ( 2 ) + 2 ⋅ l n ( 2 3 ) k = 3 ∑ ∞ 2 k − 1 1
Note that:
k = 3 ∑ ∞ 2 k − 1 1 = 2 1
Plugging this back in
S < l n ( 2 ) + 2 ⋅ l n ( 2 3 ) ⋅ 2 1
S < l n ( 2 ) + l n ( 2 3 )
S < l n ( 2 ⋅ 2 3 )
S < l n ( 3 )
l n ( P ) < l n ( 3 )
P < 3
So the answer to the question is "no", there is no positive integer n such that
2 × 3 × . . . ( n − 1 ) × n > 3
Relevant wiki: Strong Induction
K = 2 3 ⋯ ( n − 1 ) n > 3
Suppose that the nesting ends upto n = 1 0 Then nesting repeatedly on the both sides as below: c c c c c c c c c c c c c c 1 0 < 4 c c c c c c c c c c c c c 9 1 0 < 3 6 c c c c c c c c c c c 9 1 0 < 6 c c c c c c c c c c c 8 9 1 0 < 4 8 c c c c c c c c c 7 8 9 1 0 < 7 4 8 2 3 ⋯ 7 8 9 1 0 < 2 3 ⋯ 7 4 8 ≈ 2 . 7 4 7 8 7 1 . . < 2 . 7 4 8 4 . . < 3 When n gets appreciably large then the nesting occurs in the same manner that limits the value of K < 3 or which will be ≈ 2 . 7 6 1 . . . .
This solution misinterprets the notation.
I also do not understand your first step. it looks like you misunderstood the problem and calculate root of different power from n. (instead of series of nested square roots).
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That's true, I have misunderstood the problem and misinterpreted its notation due to which I wrote wrong solution. I have amended my solution. :)
This problem would be typeset 2 3 . . . n − 2 n − 1 n ≥ 3 (with small numbers 2 , 3 , . . . , n − 1 if it meant different types of root. For that matter, if the roots were of different type, are you saying that the outside one is a "first" root, if the next one in is a square root?
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Sir , I agree you and I must be sorry for misinterpreting the notation. :)
How do you show the first step in your proof? It fairly obvious that the inequality n 1 × 2 × 3 × ⋯ × ( n − 1 ) 1 ≥ 2 1 / 2 × 3 1 / 2 2 × 4 1 / 2 3 × ⋯ × n 1 / 2 n − 1 is false (because the LHS tends to 1 and the RHS to 2.76120684195749803323045464658013110487612598071530485095... ). So I don't understand your first ⟹ .
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the first step is wrong, consider the case when n=3, the original value is sqrt(2*sqrt(3)) while after the first step, the value is sqrt(3)
Is it also because the factorial exponent increase faster than the regular exponent so we can't even have an intger n such that n n ≥ 3 n !
if we replace 3 to e in problem statement, the answer will be Yes because for n = 9 2 3 … ( n − 1 ) n ≥ e , but this solution still gives answer No. because no integer >0 for which n n ≥ e n !
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Very good point! In fact this shows that the current answer is incorrect.
I was misinterpreted the notation. So my previous solution was wrong and now I have amended it. I'm extremely sorry for such fault. :(
the notation is misleading , he sum klnk is finite, but finding an n such that N > 3^k! it is always possible, :)
My answer is almost as same as Mark Hennings, but I use Jensen inequality. Let A = 2 × 3 × 4 × 5 × … It is obvious that if A<3, then the answer is no. A = 2 × 3 × 4 × 5 × … = 2 2 1 × 3 4 1 × 4 8 1 × 5 1 6 1 × . . . = k = 1 ∏ ∞ ( k + 1 ) 2 k 1 ln A = 2 1 × ln 2 + 4 1 × ln 3 + 8 1 × ln 4 + 1 6 1 × ln 5 + . . . = k = 1 ∑ ∞ 2 k ln ( k + 1 ) Now, by Jensen inequality (note than f(x)=lnx is a convex function, and 1/2+1/4+1/8+...=1 is obviously), 2 1 + 4 1 + 8 1 + . . . ln A ≤ ln ( 2 1 + 4 1 + 8 1 + . . . 2 1 × 2 + 4 1 × 3 + 8 1 × 4 + . . . )
2 1 × 2 + 4 1 × 3 + 8 1 × 4 + . . . = ( 2 1 + 4 1 + 8 1 + . . . ) + 2 1 + 4 1 × 2 + 8 1 × 3 + . . . = 2 ( 2 1 + 4 1 + 8 1 + . . . ) + ( 4 1 + 8 1 + . . . ) + ( 8 1 + . . . ) + . . . = 2 + 2 1 + 4 1 + 8 1 + . . . = 3
ln A ≤ ln 3 A ≤ 3 However, Jensen inequality will become equal is when the function it apply is linear function or all variables are same.Hence, there doesn't exist an integer which satisfy the equation.
Not a solution, but just something interesting I discovered in solving this. The number this converges to, 2.761... is the square of Somo's Quadratic Recurrence Constant.
The square root of 2 is an irrational number so no interger number is possible
It's not looking for an integer, just any real number larger than 3
A brute force method, using Octave/Matlab:
clc, clear, format long g
for i = 2:100
k = 0;
n = 1;
while k < (i-1)
n = sqrt((i-k) * n);
k = k + 1;
end
n
end
The output converges to 2.7612068419575 (12 decimal places) within 55 iterations, and remains the exact same beyond 200,000 iterations.
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When testing out small cases, it's almost obvious that it will be less than 3. Mark produces an argument that it is always less than e 1 . 0 1 6 ≈ 2 . 7 6 , so we have a lot of leeway in the inequality.
A gut feeling would be to try an approach this via induction. However, going from k to k + 1 , we see that the left-hand side (LHS) increases, but the RHS stays constant, and hence (naive) induction would not work. In particular, the induction step fails because it is not true that
k < k k + 1
Instead, "stronger" induction would be a great candidate. In this approach, we increase the term, which (ironically) makes it easier for us to prove the induction.
Hint: Prove by induction that
2 3 … ( n − 2 ) ( n − 1 ) × ( n + 1 ) < 3
What is the induction step here? How does the change help us succeed where we previously failed?
Slight spoiler space:
A potential way to discover this solution is the following chain of inequalities, where we try to "keep things nice while conforming to the structure":
3 > 2 × 4 > 2 3 × 5 > 2 3 4 × 6 > 2 3 4 5 × 7 …