Root

Algebra Level 1

Does there exist a positive integer n n such that 2 × 3 × ( n 1 ) × n > 3 ? \sqrt{2 \times \sqrt{3 \times \sqrt{\dots \sqrt{(n-1)\times {\sqrt{n}}}}}}\ \ {\large{>3}\hspace{0.3mm}?}

Yes No

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7 solutions

Calvin Lin Staff
Oct 18, 2017

When testing out small cases, it's almost obvious that it will be less than 3. Mark produces an argument that it is always less than e 1.016 2.76 e^{1.016 } \approx 2.76 , so we have a lot of leeway in the inequality.

A gut feeling would be to try an approach this via induction. However, going from k k to k + 1 k+1 , we see that the left-hand side (LHS) increases, but the RHS stays constant, and hence (naive) induction would not work. In particular, the induction step fails because it is not true that

k < k k + 1 \sqrt{ k } < \sqrt{ k \sqrt{ k + 1 } }

Instead, "stronger" induction would be a great candidate. In this approach, we increase the term, which (ironically) makes it easier for us to prove the induction.

Hint: Prove by induction that

2 3 ( n 2 ) ( n 1 ) × ( n + 1 ) < 3 \sqrt{ 2 \sqrt{ 3 \sqrt{ \ldots \sqrt{(n-2) \sqrt{ (n-1) \times (n+1) } } } } } < 3

What is the induction step here? How does the change help us succeed where we previously failed?


Slight spoiler space:

A potential way to discover this solution is the following chain of inequalities, where we try to "keep things nice while conforming to the structure":

3 > 2 × 4 > 2 3 × 5 > 2 3 4 × 6 > 2 3 4 5 × 7 3 > \sqrt{ 2 \times 4 } > \sqrt { 2 \sqrt{3 \times 5 }} > \sqrt{ 2 \sqrt{3 \sqrt{ 4 \times 6 }}} > \sqrt{ 2 \sqrt{3 \sqrt{4 \sqrt{5 \times 7 } } } } \ldots

The formatting on the original question leaves something to be desired as it is currently it is unclear what is being asked. Specifically it is unclear whether all roots are square roots or cube roots etc... Reading the solution makes it clear that all roots were square roots and that all numbers are multipliers and not roots beyond the square root.

Matthew Brutlag - 3 years, 7 months ago

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Thanks. I've edited the question for clarity.

The situation that you're thinking of has an extremely different formatting, namely

. . . n n 1 n 2 3 2 3 \sqrt{\sqrt[2]{\sqrt[3]{...\sqrt[n-2]{\sqrt[n-1]{n}}}}} \ge 3

Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 7 months ago

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Thanks. Better now.

Matthew Brutlag - 3 years, 7 months ago
Mark Hennings
Oct 16, 2017

If I read this question right, it is not a matter of different power roots. Instead, we want to know whether it is possible for m = 2 n m 1 2 m 1 \prod_{m=2}^n m^{\frac{1}{2^{m-1}}} to be greater than 3 3 . Taking logarithms, we want to know whether it is possible that m = 2 n ln m 2 m 1 > ln 3 \sum_{m=2}^n \frac{\ln m}{2^{m-1}} \; > \; \ln3 Since the infinite sum m = 2 ln m 2 m 1 \sum_{m=2}^\infty \frac{\ln m}{2^{m-1}} can be evaluated in terms of polylogarithms, m = 2 ln m 2 m 1 = 2 ( u L i u ( z ) ) u = 0 , z = 1 2 = 1.0156678 < 1.0986123 = ln 3 \sum_{m=2}^\infty \frac{\ln m}{2^{m-1}} \; = \; -2\left(\frac{\partial}{\partial u} \mathrm{Li}_u(z)\right)\Big|_{u=0,z=\frac12} \; = \; 1.0156678 \; < \; 1.0986123 \; = \; \ln3 and is less than ln 3 \ln3 , the answer is no \boxed{\text{no}} .

How to evaluate this infinite sum?

Mingshen Chen - 3 years, 7 months ago

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you could try to use the upper bound of the sum through an integral. But this use some specials functions (the "exponential integral") and is not a very neat proof (IMO). Not that I have anything better to offer...

Antoine G - 3 years, 7 months ago

We have m = 2 ln m 2 m 1 = 2 ( u L i u ( z ) ) u = 0 , z = 1 2 = 1.0156678 < 1.0986123 = ln 3 \sum_{m=2}^\infty \frac{\ln m}{2^{m-1}} \; = \; -2\left(\frac{\partial}{\partial u} \mathrm{Li}_u(z)\right)\Big|_{u=0,z=\frac12} \; = \; 1.0156678 \; < \; 1.0986123 \; = \; \ln3 using a derivative of the polylogarithm function.

Of course, the original series converges pretty rapidly, and so we could quickly show that its sum was less than 3 3 without evaluating it explicitly. For example, k < 1.0 2 k k < 1.02^k for k 50 k \ge 50 , and k 50 ln k 2 k 1 < ln 1.02 × k 50 k 2 k 1 < 3.6 × 1 0 15 \sum_{k \ge 50} \frac{\ln k}{2^{k-1}} \; < \; \ln1.02 \times \sum_{k \ge 50} \frac{k}{2^{k-1}} \; < \; 3.6 \times 10^{-15} and we can calculate k = 2 49 ln k 2 k 1 \sum_{k=2}^{49} \frac{\ln k}{2^{k-1}} readily enough and see that it is smaller than ln 3 3.6 × 1 0 15 \ln3 - 3.6 \times 10^{-15} .

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 7 months ago

I don't know if anyone is still looking at these old problems, but I just wanted to add a solution that involves only simple hand calculations.

My start was very similar to Mark's and I got the same infinite sum.

S = k = 2 l n ( k ) 2 k 1 ( E q u a t i o n 1 ) \qquad\qquad\qquad\qquad S = \sum_{k=2}^{\infty} \frac{ln(k)}{2^{k-1}}\qquad\quad(Equation \quad 1)

Notice that a term for k = 1 k=1 can be added since that term will be l n ( 1 ) 2 0 = 0 \frac{ln(1)}{2^{0}} = 0 .

S = k = 1 l n ( k ) 2 k 1 S = \sum_{k=1}^{\infty} \frac{ln(k)}{2^{k-1}}

Substitute k 1 k-1 for k k in this last equation so that this equation for S S sums from k = 2 k=2 to \infty the same way E q u a t i o n 1 Equation \quad 1 does.

S = k = 2 l n ( k 1 ) 2 k 2 S = \sum_{k=2}^{\infty} \frac{ln(k-1)}{2^{k-2}}

Now the indices match between this equation and that of E q u a t i o n 1 Equation \quad 1 , but the denominators corresponding to the same index do not. Pull out a factor of 2 from every element in this series so that the denomitators are the same in the two series.

S = 2 k = 2 l n ( k 1 ) 2 2 k 2 S = 2\sum_{k=2}^{\infty} \frac{ln(k-1)}{2 \cdot 2^{k-2}}

1 2 S = k = 2 l n ( k 1 ) 2 k 1 ( E q u a t i o n 2 ) \qquad\qquad\qquad\qquad \frac{1}{2}S = \sum_{k=2}^{\infty} \frac{ln(k-1)}{2^{k-1}} \qquad\quad (Equation \quad 2)

Subtract E q u a t i o n 2 Equation \quad 2 from E q u a t i o n 1 Equation \quad 1 :

S 1 2 S = k = 2 l n ( k ) 2 k 1 k = 2 l n ( k 1 ) 2 k 1 S - \frac{1}{2}S = \sum_{k=2}^{\infty} \frac{ln(k)}{2^{k-1}} - \sum_{k=2}^{\infty} \frac{ln(k-1)}{2^{k-1}}

1 2 S = k = 2 [ l n ( k ) 2 k 1 l n ( k 1 ) 2 k 1 ] \frac{1}{2}S = \sum_{k=2}^{\infty} \bigg[\frac{ln(k)}{2^{k-1}} - \frac{ln(k-1)}{2^{k-1}}\bigg]

1 2 S = k = 2 l n ( k ) l n ( k 1 ) 2 k 1 \frac{1}{2}S = \sum_{k=2}^{\infty} \frac{ln(k) - ln(k-1)}{2^{k-1}}

1 2 S = k = 2 l n ( k k 1 ) 2 k 1 \frac{1}{2}S = \sum_{k=2}^{\infty} \frac{ln(\frac{k}{k-1})}{2^{k-1}}

S = 2 k = 2 l n ( k k 1 ) 2 k 1 S = 2\sum_{k=2}^{\infty} \frac{ln(\frac{k}{k-1})}{2^{k-1}}

Pull out the first term:

S = 2 l n ( 2 1 ) 2 + 2 k = 3 l n ( k k 1 ) 2 k 1 S = 2 \cdot \frac{ ln\big(\frac{2}{1}\big)}{2} + 2\sum_{k=3}^{\infty} \frac{ln(\frac{k}{k-1})}{2^{k-1}}

S = l n ( 2 ) + 2 k = 3 l n ( k k 1 ) 2 k 1 S = ln(2) + 2\sum_{k=3}^{\infty} \frac{ln(\frac{k}{k-1})}{2^{k-1}}

The numerator of the first remaining term in the series is l n ( 3 2 ) ln\big(\frac{3}{2}\big) . Because the series k k 1 \frac{k}{k-1} decreases monotonically toward 1 1 for increasing values of k k , all of the remaining numerators in the series will be smaller than l n ( 3 2 ) ln\big(\frac{3}{2}\big) . By replacing every numerator in the remaining infinite sum with l n ( 3 2 ) ln\big(\frac{3}{2}\big) , the result will be something that is strictly greater than S S .

S = l n ( 2 ) + 2 k = 3 l n ( 3 2 ) 2 k 1 S = ln(2) + 2\sum_{k=3}^{\infty} \frac{ln(\frac{3}{2})}{2^{k-1}}

S < l n ( 2 ) + 2 l n ( 3 2 ) k = 3 1 2 k 1 S < ln(2) + 2 \cdot ln\Big(\frac{3}{2}\Big)\sum_{k=3}^{\infty} \frac{1}{2^{k-1}}

Note that:

k = 3 1 2 k 1 = 1 2 \sum_{k=3}^{\infty} \frac{1}{2^{k-1}} = \frac{1}{2}

Plugging this back in

S < l n ( 2 ) + 2 l n ( 3 2 ) 1 2 S < ln(2) + 2 \cdot ln\Big(\frac{3}{2}\Big) \cdot \frac{1}{2}

S < l n ( 2 ) + l n ( 3 2 ) S < ln(2) + ln\Big(\frac{3}{2}\Big)

S < l n ( 2 3 2 ) S < ln\Big(2 \cdot \frac{3}{2}\Big)

S < l n ( 3 ) S < ln(3)

l n ( P ) < l n ( 3 ) ln(P) < ln(3)

P < 3 P < 3

So the answer to the question is "no", there is no positive integer n n such that

2 × 3 × . . . ( n 1 ) × n > 3 \sqrt{2\times\sqrt{3\times\sqrt{...\sqrt{(n-1)\times\sqrt{n}}}}}\hspace{3mm}>\hspace{2mm}3

Kevin Greenwood - 3 years, 7 months ago

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Very nice, thanks!

Antoine G - 3 years, 7 months ago
Naren Bhandari
Oct 15, 2017

Relevant wiki: Strong Induction

K = 2 3 ( n 1 ) n > 3 \begin{aligned} & K= \sqrt{2\sqrt{3\sqrt{\cdots (n-1)\sqrt n}}} > 3 \end{aligned}

Suppose that the nesting ends upto n = 10 n = 10 Then nesting repeatedly on the both sides as below: c c c c c c c c c c c c c c 10 < 4 c c c c c c c c c c c c c 9 10 < 36 c c c c c c c c c c c 9 10 < 6 c c c c c c c c c c c 8 9 10 < 48 c c c c c c c c c 7 8 9 10 < 7 48 2 3 7 8 9 10 < 2 3 7 48 2.747871.. < 2.7484.. < 3 \begin{aligned} & \phantom{cccccccccccccc}\sqrt {10} < 4 \\& \phantom{ccccccccccccc} 9\sqrt{10} < 36 \\ & \phantom{ccccccccccc} \sqrt{9\sqrt{10}} < 6 \\& \phantom{ccccccccccc}8{\sqrt{9\sqrt{10}}} <48 \\&\phantom{ccccccccc} 7\sqrt{8\sqrt{9\sqrt{10}}} < 7\sqrt{48} \\& \sqrt{2\sqrt{3\sqrt{\cdots 7\sqrt{8\sqrt{9\sqrt{10}}}}}} < \sqrt{2\sqrt{3\sqrt{\cdots 7\sqrt{48}}}} \approx 2.747871.. < 2.7484..< 3 \end{aligned} When n n gets appreciably large then the nesting occurs in the same manner that limits the value of K < 3 K < 3 or which will be 2.761... \approx 2.761... .

Moderator note:

This solution misinterprets the notation.

I also do not understand your first step. it looks like you misunderstood the problem and calculate root of different power from n. (instead of series of nested square roots).

Alex L - 3 years, 7 months ago

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That's true, I have misunderstood the problem and misinterpreted its notation due to which I wrote wrong solution. I have amended my solution. :)

Naren Bhandari - 3 years, 7 months ago

This problem would be typeset . . . n n 1 n 2 3 2 3 \sqrt{\sqrt[2]{\sqrt[3]{...\sqrt[n-2]{\sqrt[n-1]{n}}}}} \ge 3 (with small numbers 2 , 3 , . . . , n 1 2,3,...,n-1 if it meant different types of root. For that matter, if the roots were of different type, are you saying that the outside one is a "first" root, if the next one in is a square root?

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 7 months ago

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Sir , I agree you and I must be sorry for misinterpreting the notation. :)

Naren Bhandari - 3 years, 7 months ago

How do you show the first step in your proof? It fairly obvious that the inequality n 1 1 × 2 × 3 × × ( n 1 ) 2 1 / 2 × 3 1 / 2 2 × 4 1 / 2 3 × × n 1 / 2 n 1 n^{ \frac{1}{1 \times 2 \times 3 \times \cdots \times (n-1) } } \geq 2^{1/2} \times 3^{1/2^2} \times 4^{1/2^3} \times \cdots \times n^{1/2^{n-1} } is false (because the LHS tends to 1 and the RHS to 2.76120684195749803323045464658013110487612598071530485095... ). So I don't understand your first \implies .

Antoine G - 3 years, 7 months ago

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the first step is wrong, consider the case when n=3, the original value is sqrt(2*sqrt(3)) while after the first step, the value is sqrt(3)

Mingshen Chen - 3 years, 7 months ago

Is it also because the factorial exponent increase faster than the regular exponent so we can't even have an intger n n such that n n 3 n ! n^n \ge 3^{n!}

Hana Wehbi - 3 years, 7 months ago

if we replace 3 to e in problem statement, the answer will be Yes because for n = 9 n = 9 2 3 ( n 1 ) n e \sqrt{2\sqrt{3\sqrt{\dots \sqrt{(n-1){\sqrt{n}}}}}} \ge e , but this solution still gives answer No. because no integer >0 for which n n e n ! n^n \ge e^{n!}

Alex L - 3 years, 7 months ago

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Very good point! In fact this shows that the current answer is incorrect.

Antoine G - 3 years, 7 months ago

I was misinterpreted the notation. So my previous solution was wrong and now I have amended it. I'm extremely sorry for such fault. :(

Naren Bhandari - 3 years, 7 months ago

the notation is misleading , he sum klnk is finite, but finding an n such that N > 3^k! it is always possible, :)

Octavian Popescu - 3 years, 7 months ago
Chan Tin Ping
Oct 22, 2017

My answer is almost as same as Mark Hennings, but I use Jensen inequality. Let A = 2 × 3 × 4 × 5 × A=\sqrt{2 \times \sqrt{3 \times \sqrt{4 \times\sqrt{5\times\sqrt{\dots }}}}} It is obvious that if A<3, then the answer is no. A = 2 × 3 × 4 × 5 × = 2 1 2 × 3 1 4 × 4 1 8 × 5 1 16 × . . . = k = 1 ( k + 1 ) 1 2 k \begin{aligned} A&=\sqrt{2 \times \sqrt{3 \times \sqrt{4 \times\sqrt{5\times\sqrt{\dots }}}}}\\ &=2^{\frac{1}{2}}\times3^{\frac{1}{4}}\times4^{\frac{1}{8}}\times5^{\frac{1}{16}}\times...\\ &=\prod_{k=1}^{\infty}(k+1)^{\frac{1}{2^k}} \end{aligned} ln A = 1 2 × ln 2 + 1 4 × ln 3 + 1 8 × ln 4 + 1 16 × ln 5 + . . . = k = 1 ln ( k + 1 ) 2 k \begin{aligned} \ln{A}&=\frac{1}{2}\times\ln2+\frac{1}{4}\times\ln3+\frac{1}{8}\times\ln4+\frac{1}{16}\times\ln5+...\\ &=\sum_{k=1}^{\infty}\frac{\ln(k+1)}{2^k} \end{aligned} Now, by Jensen inequality (note than f(x)=lnx is a convex function, and 1/2+1/4+1/8+...=1 is obviously), ln A 1 2 + 1 4 + 1 8 + . . . ln ( 1 2 × 2 + 1 4 × 3 + 1 8 × 4 + . . . 1 2 + 1 4 + 1 8 + . . . ) \frac{\ln{A}}{\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{4}+\frac{1}{8}+...}\leq \ln{(\frac{\frac{1}{2}\times2+\frac{1}{4}\times3+\frac{1}{8}\times4+...}{\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{4}+\frac{1}{8}+...})}

1 2 × 2 + 1 4 × 3 + 1 8 × 4 + . . . = ( 1 2 + 1 4 + 1 8 + . . . ) + 1 2 + 1 4 × 2 + 1 8 × 3 + . . . = 2 ( 1 2 + 1 4 + 1 8 + . . . ) + ( 1 4 + 1 8 + . . . ) + ( 1 8 + . . . ) + . . . = 2 + 1 2 + 1 4 + 1 8 + . . . = 3 \begin{aligned} & \space\space \frac{1}{2}\times2+\frac{1}{4}\times3+\frac{1}{8}\times4+... \\ &=(\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{4}+\frac{1}{8}+...)+\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{4}\times2+\frac{1}{8}\times3+...\\ &=2(\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{4}+\frac{1}{8}+...)+(\frac{1}{4}+\frac{1}{8}+...)+(\frac{1}{8}+...)+... \\ &=2+\frac{1}{2}+\frac{1}{4}+\frac{1}{8}+... \\ &=3 \end{aligned}

ln A ln 3 \ln{A}\leq\ln3 A 3 A\leq3 However, Jensen inequality will become equal is when the function it apply is linear function or all variables are same.Hence, there doesn't exist an integer which satisfy the equation.

Calvin Godfrey
Oct 22, 2017

Not a solution, but just something interesting I discovered in solving this. The number this converges to, 2.761... is the square of Somo's Quadratic Recurrence Constant.

Peter Stiphout
Oct 20, 2017

The square root of 2 is an irrational number so no interger number is possible

It's not looking for an integer, just any real number larger than 3

Calvin Godfrey - 3 years, 7 months ago
David Krüger
Oct 20, 2017

A brute force method, using Octave/Matlab:

clc, clear, format long g

for i = 2:100
    k = 0;
    n = 1;
    while k < (i-1)
        n = sqrt((i-k) * n);
        k = k + 1;
    end
    n
end

The output converges to 2.7612068419575 (12 decimal places) within 55 iterations, and remains the exact same beyond 200,000 iterations.

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