Sins ain't bad

Geometry Level 3

A B C ABC is a triangle with side lengths 5 , 5, 4 2 , 4\sqrt2, and 7. 7.

Another triangle has side lengths sin A , \sin A, sin B , \sin B, and sin C . \sin C.

If the area of that triangle is p q , \frac{p}{q}, where p p and q q are coprime positive integers, then what is p + q ? p+q?


The answer is 32.

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7 solutions

David Vreken
May 31, 2018

By the law of sines, sin A a = sin B b = sin C c = 2 T a b c = k \frac{\sin A}{a} = \frac{\sin B}{b} = \frac{\sin C}{c} = \frac{2T}{abc} = k , where T T is the area of the triangle, and k k is a constant for that triangle.

Then sin A = k a \sin A = ka , sin B = k b \sin B = kb , and sin C = k c \sin C = kc , and the ratio of the sides between a triangle with side lengths of sin A \sin A , sin B \sin B , and sin C \sin C to a triangle with side lengths a a , b b , and c c is k k , which means the ratio of the areas is k 2 k^2 .

Therefore, if T 2 T_2 is the area of the triangle with side lengths of sin A \sin A , sin B \sin B , and sin C \sin C and T 1 T_1 is the area of the triangle with sides lengths of a a , b b , and c c , T 2 = k 2 T 1 T_2 = k^2T_1 . Since k = 2 T a b c k = \frac{2T}{abc} , T 2 = 4 T 1 3 a 2 b 2 c 2 T_2 = \frac{4T_1^3}{a^2b^2c^2} .

In this problem, we can let a = 5 a = 5 , b = 4 2 b = 4\sqrt{2} , and c = 7 c = 7 . Since its area can be calculated by Heron's formula to be T 1 = 14 T_1 = 14 , T 2 = 4 ( 14 ) 3 5 2 ( 4 2 ) 2 7 2 = 7 25 T_2 = \frac{4(14)^3}{5^2(4\sqrt{2})^27^2} = \frac{7}{25} , and 7 + 25 = 32 7 + 25 = \boxed{32} .

I haven't heard of the convention to denote angles the same as the points of a triangle. It is a pity this information was not included in the description..

Christian Herrmann - 3 years ago

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I'm genuinely interested in what any ways can one interpret the problem. I mean, for me, this is a first encounter, too, but A B C are probably angles when written after sin in a geometry problem.

Laszlo Kocsis - 2 years, 12 months ago

Notation can vary a lot from place to place. Where I am from, this is extremely common notation.

Another example I've seen is about domain. If you want to say the domain from 2 (exclusive) to 4 (inclusive), I've always seen it written as ( 2 , 4 ] (2, 4] , but many people were complaining on a problem that they have always seen it as ] 2 , 4 ] ]2, 4] . I find this notation quite odd, but they find my notation to be quite odd. You can't satisfy everyone.

Zain Majumder - 2 years, 12 months ago
Andre Bourque
Jun 10, 2018

Drop altitude BD and notice that CD = 3, AD = 4, and BD = 4. (Do you know how to show this?)
Then we can calculate that the area of the triangle is 1 2 × 7 × 4 = 14 \frac{1}{2} \times 7 \times 4 = 14 , and sin A = 1 2 \sin A = \frac{1}{ \sqrt{2} } .
(It is a well known fact that) By using the law of sines, the new triangle is similar to the original triangle.
Since length 5 5 is mapped to length 1 2 \frac{1}{ \sqrt{2} } , hence the area is ( 1 5 2 ) 2 \left( \frac{1 } { 5 \sqrt{2} } \right) ^2 of the original, which gives us 14 50 = 7 25 \frac{14}{50} = \frac{7}{25} .


Moderator note:

re: "notice that CD = 3, AD = 4, and BD = 4."

While it's possible to guess that BD is 4 (and get the other measurements) a more general method would be to setup the Pythagorean theorem for both triangles. Let the unknown altitude be y , y, and let the unknown leg AD be x , x, getting

( 7 x ) 2 + y 2 = 25 and x 2 + y 2 = 32. (7-x)^2 + y^2 = 25 \text{ and } x^2 + y^2 = 32.

Subtracting the 2 equations, we get 14 x = 56 14 x = 56 , and hence can determine y = 4 y = 4 .

When it comes to geometry problems with seemingly "arbitrary" lengths, they are often times two right triangles glued together. In this case it was a 3-4-5 and a 4-4-4√2. A golden example is the 13-14-15 triangle which is a 5-12-13 and a 9-12-15 glued together by their common leg of 12. I have seen problems that incorporate similar methods so it is now a habit of mine to check for "glued" triangles.

Andre Bourque - 2 years, 12 months ago
Romain Bouchard
May 31, 2018

We know from the law of cosines that cos A = 5 2 ( 4 2 ) 2 7 2 2 7 4 2 = 56 56 2 = 2 2 \cos A = \frac{5^2-(4\sqrt{2})^2-7^2}{-2*7*4\sqrt{2}} = \frac{-56}{-56\sqrt{2}} = \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2} , hence A = 45 ° \angle{A} = 45° and sin A = 2 2 \sin A = \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2} ( 1 ) (1)

We know from the law of sines that 5 sin A = 4 2 sin B = 7 sin C \frac{5}{\sin A} = \frac{4\sqrt{2}}{\sin B} = \frac{7}{\sin C} , hence from ( 1 ) (1) we have sin B = 4 2 sin A 5 = 4 5 \sin B = \frac{4\sqrt{2}\sin A}{5} = \frac{4}{5} and sin C = 7 sin A 5 = 7 2 10 \sin C = \frac{7\sin A}{5} = \frac{7\sqrt{2}}{10}

Thus from Heron's formula, the area of a triangle whose side lengths are sin A , sin B \sin A, \sin B and sin C \sin C is s ( s sin A ) ( s sin B ) ( s sin C ) \sqrt{s(s-\sin A)(s-\sin B)(s-\sin C)}

where s = sin A + sin B + sin C 2 = 5 2 + 8 + 7 2 10 = 3 2 + 2 5 s = \frac{\sin A + \sin B + \sin C}{2} = \frac{5\sqrt{2}+8+7\sqrt{2}}{10} = \frac{3\sqrt{2}+2}{5} .

So the area is equal to ( 3 2 + 2 5 ) ( 2 + 4 10 ) ( 3 2 2 5 ) ( 2 + 4 10 ) = 7 25 \sqrt{(\frac{3\sqrt{2}+2}{5})(\frac{\sqrt{2}+4}{10})(\frac{3\sqrt{2}-2}{5})(\frac{-\sqrt{2}+4}{10})} = \frac{7}{25} .

Thus p q = 7 25 \frac{p}{q} = \frac{7}{25} and p + q = 7 + 25 = 32 p+q = 7+25= \boxed{32} .

Why do all of you know so much?? :(

Unknown Creature - 3 years ago

Since I'm just a newbie who's trying to learn something, I have one question. Could you please explain the formula from law of cosines? I googled it and the formula I found was slightly different: cos A = (b^2+c^2-a) / 2bc
I'm definitely missing something, right? Someone, help please.

Michal Mentel - 2 years, 12 months ago

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You mean cos(A) = (b^2+c^2-a^2) / 2bc. Romain just has cos(A) = (a^2-b^2-c^2) / (-2bc). Which is exactly the same.

Alex Burgess - 2 years, 12 months ago
Rocco Dalto
Jun 10, 2018

Using the law of cosines with the following included angles:

C cos ( C ) = 3 5 sin ( C ) = 4 5 \angle{C} \implies \cos(C) = \dfrac{3}{5} \implies \sin(C) = \boxed{\dfrac{4}{5}}

A cos ( A ) = 1 2 sin ( A ) = 1 2 \angle{A} \implies \cos(A) = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{2}} \implies \sin(A) = \boxed{\dfrac{1}{\sqrt{2}}}

B cos ( B ) = 1 5 2 sin ( B ) = 7 5 2 \angle{B} \implies \cos(B) = \dfrac{1}{5\sqrt{2}} \implies \sin(B) = \boxed{\dfrac{7}{5\sqrt{2}}}

Using the law of cosines for the included angle A cos ( A ) = 1 5 2 sin ( A ) = 7 5 2 h = 1 2 sin ( A ) = 7 10 A^{*} \implies \cos(A^{*}) = \dfrac{1}{5\sqrt{2}} \implies \sin(A^{*}) = \dfrac{7}{5\sqrt{2}} \implies h = \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\sin(A^{*}) = \dfrac{7}{10}

A A B C = 1 2 ( 4 5 ) ( 7 10 ) = 7 25 = p q p + q = 32 . \implies A_{\triangle{A^{*}B^{*}C^{*}}} = \dfrac{1}{2}(\dfrac{4}{5})(\dfrac{7}{10}) = \dfrac{7}{25} = \dfrac{p}{q} \implies p + q = \boxed{32}.

Benjamin Colson
Jun 14, 2018

Let T T be the area of Δ A B C \Delta ABC and t t be the area of the other triangle.

By the Law of Cosines,

( 4 2 ) 2 = 5 2 + 7 2 2 ( 5 ) ( 7 ) cos C \left(4\sqrt{2}\right)^2=5^2+7^2-2(5)(7)\cos{C}

cos C = 3 5 sin C = 4 5 \implies\cos{C}=\frac{3}{5}\implies\sin{C}=\frac{4}{5}

Then by the Law of Sines,

5 sin A = 7 sin B = 4 2 4 5 = 5 2 \dfrac{5}{\sin{A}}=\dfrac{7}{\sin{B}}=\dfrac{4\sqrt{2}}{\frac{4}{5}}=5\sqrt{2}

which implies that all three sides of Δ A B C \Delta ABC are 5 2 5\sqrt{2} times as big as those of the other triangle.

And since area ( length ) 2 \text{area}\propto\left(\text{length}\right)^2 , if side lengths shrink by a factor 5 2 5\sqrt{2} , area would shrink by a factor of ( 5 2 ) 2 \left(5\sqrt{2}\right)^2 , or 50 50 .

Thus, t = T 5 0 1 t=T\cdot50^{-1} , and since

T = 1 2 ( 5 ) ( 7 ) ( 4 5 ) = 14 T=\frac{1}{2}(5)(7)\left(\frac{4}{5}\right)=14

we find that t = 14 50 = 7 25 t=\frac{14}{50}=\frac{7}{25}

And finally, the value we seek is the sum of the numerator and denominator, i.e. 32 32 .

Btw this is the first solution that I've posted, so any feedback is welcome :)

Benjamin Colson - 2 years, 12 months ago

First, use Heron's formula to calculate the area of the bigger triangle: s ( s a ) ( s b ) ( s c ) \sqrt{s(s-a)(s-b)(s-c)} where s s is half the perimeter of the triangle and a , b , a, b, and c c are the sides of the triangle. We get that the area of the triangle is 14 14 . Then, we can calculate some heights to find the sines of the angles. For the height dropped from C C to A B AB , we get 14 1 2 4 2 \frac{14}{\frac{1}{2}\ 4\sqrt{2}} = = 7 2 2 \frac{7\sqrt{2}}{2} . And for the height dropped from A A to C B CB , we get 14 1 2 5 \frac{14}{\frac{1}{2}5} = 5.6 = 5.6 . With these, we can calculate the sines of the angles: sin A \sin A = = 2 2 \frac{\sqrt{2}}{2} , sin B \sin B = = 7 2 10 \frac{7\sqrt{2}}{10} , and sin C \sin C = = 56 70 \frac{56}{70} . Now, we need to use Heron's formula on the little triangle. After doing so, we get that the area is . 28 = 7 25 .28=\frac{7}{25} . The answer is then 32 \boxed{32} .

Zico Quintina
Jun 10, 2018

Let T T be the area of triangle A B C ABC , and T T^* the area of the smaller triangle. By Sine Law the two triangles are clearly similar; also, by applying Heron's Law, or by noticing that triangle ABC is composed of a 3 - 4 - 5 \ 3 \ \text{-} \ 4 \ \text{-} \ 5 \ right triangle and a 4 - 4 - 4 2 \ 4 \ \text{-} \ 4 \ \text{-} \ 4\sqrt{2} \ right triangle attached at their sides of length 4 4 , we have that T = 14 \ T=14 .

In the diagram on the left, just like in the standard derivation of the Sine Law, we see that

b sin A = a sin B = h [Divide by a b ] sin A a = sin B b ( = sin C c ) = h a b = h c a b c = 2 T a b c \begin{aligned} b \sin A = a \sin B &= h \qquad \qquad \small \text{[Divide by } ab] \\ \\ \dfrac{\sin A}{a} = \dfrac{\sin B}{b} \left( = \dfrac{\sin C}{c} \right) &= \dfrac{h}{ab} \\ \\ &= \dfrac{hc}{abc} \\ \\ &= \dfrac{2T}{abc} \\ \end{aligned}

Now, applying the triangle area formula 1 2 α β sin Γ \dfrac{1}{2} \alpha \beta \sin \Gamma \ to the smaller triangle, we get that 2 T = sin A sin B sin C = sin A sin B sin C 2 T^* = \sin A \sin B \sin C^* = \sin A \sin B \sin C . Then,

2 T a b c = sin A a sin B b sin C c = ( 2 T a b c ) 3 = 8 T 3 a 3 b 3 c 3 T = 4 T 3 a 2 b 2 c 2 = 4 ( 14 ) 3 25 32 49 = 7 25 \begin{aligned} \dfrac{2 T^*}{abc} &= \dfrac{\sin A}{a} \cdot \dfrac{\sin B}{b} \cdot \dfrac{\sin C}{c} \\ \\ &= \left( \dfrac{2T}{abc} \right)^3 \\ \\ &= \dfrac{8T^3}{a^3b^3c^3} \\ \\ T^* &= \dfrac{4T^3}{a^2b^2c^2} \\ \\ &= \dfrac{4(14)^3}{25 \cdot 32 \cdot 49} \\ \\ &= \dfrac{7}{25} \end{aligned}

and our answer is 7 + 25 = 32 7 + 25 = \boxed{32}

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