Don't Let Robots Take Over Our World

Calculus Level 1

In the event that machines take over the world and you don't have access to a calculator, can you tell which one is greater,

3 1 17 or 1 7 31 ? 31^{17} \text{ or } 17^{31} ?

Both are equal 31^17 17^31 Not possible without calculator

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18 solutions

Discussions for this problem are now closed

Rohit Gupta
Apr 25, 2014

First, let us look for some similarities between 17 and 31 which we may be able to use to our advantage. Both numbers are just 1 away from a power of 2:

17 = 16 + 1 17=16+1 and 31 = 32 1 31=32-1 .

Using this similarity...

16 31 = ( 2 4 ) 31 = 2 124 { 16 }^{ 31 }={ ({ 2 }^{ 4 }) }^{ 31 }={ 2 }^{ 124 } . Clearly, 17 31 > 16 31 { 17 }^{ 31 }{ >16 }^{ 31 } so 17 31 > 2 124 { 17 }^{ 31 }>{ 2 }^{ 124 } .

32 17 = ( 2 5 ) 17 = 2 85 { 32 }^{ 17 }={ ({ 2 }^{ 5 }) }^{ 17 }={ 2 }^{ 85 } . Clearly, 31 17 < 32 17 { 31 }^{ 17 }{ <32 }^{ 17 } so 31 17 < 2 85 { 31 }^{ 17 }<{ 2 }^{ 85 } .

Since 2 124 > 2 85 { 2 }^{ 124 }>{ 2 }^{ 85 } , we can definitely say that 17 31 > 31 17 { 17 }^{ 31 }>{ 31 }^{ 17 } .

Hi, we can also think of it this way, take ln both sides then 17 ln(31) and 31 ln(17) we know ln scales values down and ln(31) and ln(17) would be very close hence 31 and 17 would make the impact and thus 17^31 would be greater.... What say people?

Anurag Halder - 7 years, 1 month ago

IF { 31 }^17 = { 17 }^31...........(1)
Raise the power on both sides by 1/31
THEN,
sqrt { 31 } = 17 (17/31 is approximately equal to 0.5)
This is absurd ....
actually sqrt { 31 } is certainly < 17
So we should substitute ' < ' symbol instead '='
Hence eqn (1) becomes
{31}^17 <{17}^31
that is 17^{ 31 } > 31{ 17 }

Sankarshaṇ Joshi - 7 years, 1 month ago

@Sankarshaṇ Joshi very simple solution dude. this should receive more upvotes

Kiran Bk - 7 years, 1 month ago

Frankly I did this just by instinct. I always do maths by instinct. I know that exponentiation raises the value very fast. The more power to which you raise the number the bigger it becomes. Also I simply compared the numbers 17 and 31 and their relative magnitudes and saw that raising 17 to the power of 31 must certainly yield a bigger number raising 31 to the power of 17.

N Iyer - 7 years, 1 month ago

I solved it by instinct too. It's startling how intelligent a human subconscious is.

grn a - 7 years, 1 month ago

Same here Sir

Ritesh Chauhan - 7 years ago

Take the natural logarithm of both sides, to get 17 log(31) & 31 log(17). Since logarithm is a monotonically increasing function, the relationship (greater, lesser or equal) between the two sides is preserved in the transformation. Now, cross-multiply to get l o g 17 17 \frac{log17}{17} & l o g 31 31 \frac{log31}{31} .

Consider the function l o g x x \frac{log x}{x} . Differentiating this gives 1 l o g ( x ) x 2 \frac{1-log(x)}{x^2} , which is strictly negative for all x>e (Denominator is a square and always positive, numerator is negative since log(x)>1 for all x>e). This means that the function is monotonically decreasing, i.e., l o g 17 17 > l o g 31 31 \frac{log 17}{17} > \frac{log 31}{31} . Thus, 17 log(31)<31 log(17) and so, 1 7 31 > 3 1 17 17^{31} > 31^{17} .

Pradeep Krishnan - 7 years, 1 month ago

the esiest way ;)

hamza kaibous - 7 years, 1 month ago

@Rohit Gupta cool way to solve !!

Ayush Saini - 7 years, 1 month ago

17^31 obviously as it can be written as (1.7 10)^31 so it means 1.7^31 10^31..... nd 31^17 can be written as (3.1 10)^17 therefore = 3.1^17 10^17 now as 10^31>10^17 therefore mutually it is directly stated 17^31> 31^17 ....

As 3.1>1.7 bt nos of zeroes on side 17^31 will always greater than 17^31

Akshay Sant - 7 years, 1 month ago

16^30 [ > ] 32^17....2^120 [ > ] 2^85

Alok Thakur - 7 years, 1 month ago

31/17=1.8 1.8*5=9 so for every 9 powers of 17 we have 5 powers of 31 thus for 27 powers of 17 we have 15 powers of 31 now we are left with 31^2=900 and 17^4 ie way past 900 so 17^31 is greater.

Vaibhav Mishra - 7 years, 1 month ago

cool and nice techniques!!

Sittie Ainah Suma - 7 years, 1 month ago

Brilliant !!

Dodo Ashraf - 7 years, 1 month ago

nicely explained

Harasadhan Mandal - 7 years, 1 month ago

amazing !

Siddanagowda Biradar - 7 years, 1 month ago

see the example 2^8 and 8^2 ,3^9 and 9^3 simlary this problem

Murali K S - 7 years, 1 month ago

Very cool trick............

Jaydeep Parmar - 7 years, 1 month ago

The Coolest and the easiest way to solved it ! Thumbs up

Kanav Gupta - 7 years, 1 month ago

your solution is amazing :D

Emmanuel David - 7 years, 1 month ago

@Rohit Gupta , brilliant solution (lends credibility to the authors that decided to name the website after such, haha)! I really liked this approach with the whole inequality idea. Much better than some of the other answers I've seen here.

Chirag Bharadwaj - 7 years, 1 month ago

wow..i did not think this way.. bravo..

Wennie Go - 7 years, 1 month ago

but i got the correct answer..im just wild guessing..but also using my mathematical skills. heheehe :)

Wennie Go - 7 years, 1 month ago

one can also use logarithm to solbe this problem.

Vishal yadav - 7 years, 1 month ago

it is easy to do like that way : 2 raise to 4 and 4 raise to 2 can all tell me which is greater ???? but obviously 2 raise to 4 is greater which is resemble to given question!!!

Monil Baghadia - 7 years, 1 month ago

nice explaination..

i m not a math genius or something but just used the logic that if u raise a lower no. with a higher power than a higher no. with a lower power then the lower no. with the higher power has to be a bigger no. because of the chance of it getting multiplied for a larger no. of time.........since 2/\6 >6/\2.therefore 17/\31>31/\17.....hope this logic is right....;P

Alexius Carvalho - 7 years, 1 month ago

take a simple and equivalent example: 2^11 or 11^2 ? Answer lies therein. Smaller^larger no. > larger^smaller no.

Sanjit Jena - 7 years, 1 month ago

For the number closer to e e , x 1 x x^{\frac{1}{x}} is greater. For proof, check the function f ( x ) = x 1 x f(x) = \displaystyle x^{\frac{1}{x}} . It achieves it's maximum at x = e x=e . This gives 17 17 > 31 31 \sqrt[17]{17} > \sqrt[31]{31} . Result follows.

Great solution! People need to know this fact!

Cody Johnson - 7 years, 1 month ago

can i use log......if we do it...and a bit of guess work..what is the answer....

Max B - 7 years, 1 month ago

No doubt ur concept was right but without calculator ur process is not possible

Ranesh Sarkar - 7 years, 1 month ago

Why? I did it without calculator. e = 2.74 < 17 < 31 e = 2.74 \cdots < 17 < 31 . Hence the function is higher for 17 17 . Note that ( x 1 x ) < 0 (x^{\frac{1}{x}})' < 0 for x ( e , ) x \in (e,\infty)

A Brilliant Member - 7 years, 1 month ago
Ranesh Sarkar
Apr 21, 2014

17>16 which is 2^4 therefore 17^31>2^(431)>2^124 31<32 which is 2^5 therefore 31^17<2^(517)<2^85 Hence 31^17 is the answer

i agree with this

Bittu Singh - 7 years, 1 month ago
Emmanuel Amoah
Apr 29, 2014

i just picked smaller numbers like 2^5 and 5^2 ,reasoned out the circumstances which makes the first instance(2^5) greater,and applied it to the question. it worked!!

......a very basic, time-saving way of looking at the seemingly complex question.

Emmanuel Amoah - 7 years, 1 month ago
Rishabh Chhabda
Apr 28, 2014

Take log values.

Clearly 31log17>17log31

is this correct method be apply? take log both side will affect the value of both side too right?

Bing Xuan - 7 years, 1 month ago

logarithmic function is an strictly increasing function.. hence there is nothing wrong in taking log

Ťånåy Nårshånå - 7 years, 1 month ago

It's a little clearer if you use base-2 logarithms: then you can get "good enough" approximations to tell which product is larger.

Gregory Ruffa - 7 years, 1 month ago
Hatim Zaghloul
Apr 29, 2014

We know that the 17^31 is of the order 10^31. 3^17is of the order 10^17 and we have almost a factor of 2 (31/17) to worry about. 2^31 is of the order 10^9.

Usually the smaller number to the power of a bigger number is greater than the bigger number to the power of a smaller number. ex: 3 to the power of 2 and 2 to the power of 3 ( 2 to the power of 3 is greater)

Dladla Arthur
May 16, 2014

Using small number for instace take:

3^2 and 2^3, we realize that 3^2 = 9 and 2^3 = 8

therefore this implies that 31^17 > 17^31

this is the true power of exponential functions, small no. with a higher power grows faster than a large number with a smaller power. I know this logic and got the answer without even thinking, as difference between 31 and 17 is large.....

Manish Khare
May 4, 2014

17^31= 17^(17+14) = (17^17).(17^14) = (17^17).(14+3)^14 = (17^17).(14^14).[1+(3/14)]^14 = (17^17).(14^14).(approx 5/4)^14 and 31^17 = (17+14)^17 = (17^17).[1+(14/17)]^17 = (17^17). (approx 2)^17

Clearly the term 14^14 will take a major lead over 2^17 and hence 17^31 will be greater.

Tanay Kankane
Apr 30, 2014

Let take y=17^31 and y'=31^17 Now just take log both side to get logy=31log17 and logy'=17log31 Now you can just use the log properties and approximation to know that whose bigger? logy or logy' ? you will just get an ans.. QED

it's simple calculate its ten power using logarthims i.e17^31 has a ten power 38 whereas 31^17 has ten power 25

Arunesh Dubey
Apr 30, 2014

we know 17^31 > 16^31=2^124 and 31^17< 32^17= 2^85 seeing above we got 17^31>31^17

Pradeep Krishnan
Apr 29, 2014

Take the natural logarithm of both sides, to get 17 log(31) & 31 log(17). Since logarithm is a monotonically increasing function, the relationship (greater, lesser or equal) between the two sides is preserved in the transformation. Now, cross-multiply to get l o g 17 17 \frac{log17}{17} & l o g 31 31 \frac{log31}{31} .

Consider the function l o g x x \frac{log x}{x} . Differentiating this gives 1 l o g ( x ) x 2 \frac{1-log(x)}{x^2} , which is strictly negative for all x>e (Denominator is a square and always positive, numerator is negative since log(x)>1 for all x>e). This means that the function is monotonically decreasing, i.e., l o g 17 17 > l o g 31 31 \frac{log 17}{17} > \frac{log 31}{31} . Thus, 17 log(31)<31 log(17) and so, 1 7 31 > 3 1 17 17^{31} > 31^{17} .

Siddhant Pradhan
Apr 29, 2014

assume function x^1/x and differentiate it to get where the function is increasing or decreasing. Now you can know the relation between 17^1/17 and 31^1/31 which is 17^1/17> 31^1/31. now raise both sides to 17*31. Since the numbers are greater than 1, inequality holds :)

Abhishek Nag
Apr 29, 2014

consider 31^17. taking log will give 17log31 now, 17log31< 17log34 17log34= 34log17 34log17 < 31log17..... hence 17log31 < 31log17 therefore 31^17 < 17^31

Akshay Sant
Apr 29, 2014

17^31 obviously17^31 obviously as it can be written as (1.7 ×10)^31 so it means 1.7^31× 10^31..... nd 31^17 can be written as (3.1×10)^17 therefore = 3.1^17×10^17 now as 10^31>10^17 therefore mutually it is directly stated 17^31> 31^17 ....

As 3.1>1.7 bt nos of zeroes on side 17^31 will always greater than 31^17

Dats all ....

Vishnudatt Gupta
Apr 28, 2014

as we know that 17=16+1 and 31=32-1 solving it correctly we will get
31^17<2^85 and 17^31>2^124 so 17^ 31 is greater

17^31 = 17 (289^15) 31^17 = 961 (31^15)

seems 17^31 being greater than 31^17.

Manish Arya - 7 years, 1 month ago

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