The Special Mean

Algebra Level 4

Given two positive reals a a and b b , the special mean or means are all λ \lambda such that log a λ = log λ b \log_{a}{\lambda}=\log_{\lambda}{b} or log b λ = log λ a . \log_{b}{\lambda}=\log_{\lambda}{a}.

Given that at least one special mean of a a and b b exists, are all special means of a a and b b between a a and b b (inclusive)?


Note: This is similar to the way the arithmetic mean of a a and b b is defined as the λ \lambda such that b λ = λ a , b-\lambda=\lambda-a, and the geometric mean of a a and b b as the λ \lambda such that b λ = λ a . \frac{b}{\lambda}=\frac{\lambda}{a}.

Yes No

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6 solutions

Nick Turtle
Nov 27, 2017

First, solve the equation: log a λ = log λ b \log_{a}{\lambda}=\log_{\lambda}{b} ln λ ln a = ln b ln λ \frac{\ln{\lambda}}{\ln{a}}=\frac{\ln{b}}{\ln{\lambda}} ( ln λ ) 2 = ln a ln b {(\ln{\lambda})}^2=\ln{a}\ln{b} ln λ = ± ln a ln b \ln{\lambda}=±\sqrt{\ln{a}\ln{b}} λ = e ± ln a ln b \lambda=e^{±\sqrt{\ln{a}\ln{b}}} λ = a ± ln b ln a = b ± ln a ln b \lambda=a^{±\sqrt{\frac{\ln{b}}{\ln{a}}}}=b^{±\sqrt{\frac{\ln{a}}{\ln{b}}}}

There are two possible values for the special mean.

The second equation log a λ = log λ b \log_{a}{\lambda}=\log_{\lambda}{b} will return the same results for λ \lambda . This means that a a and b b are interchangeable. Assume then that a b a≤b .

It can be easily shown that a a ln b ln a = λ a≤a^{\sqrt{\frac{\ln{b}}{\ln{a}}}}=\lambda and b b ln a ln b = λ b≥b^{\sqrt{\frac{\ln{a}}{\ln{b}}}}=\lambda . Thus, one of the special mean is always between (inclusive) a a and b b .

However, this is not true for the second possible value for the special mean. In fact, this value is only in between a a and b b when a = b = 1 a=b=1 . Unfortunately, in this case, the original definition does not hold, as one cannot take the logarithm at base 1 1 .

Thus, the answer is No \text{No} .

An easier argument from ( ln λ ) 2 = ln a ln b ( \ln \lambda) ^2 = \ln a \ln b is that
- ln a , ln b \ln a, \ln b must have the same sign, thus a , b a,b are on the same side of 1 1
- There are 2 possibilities for ln λ \ln \lambda (due to the sign),
- Thus, one of the possibilities for λ \lambda would not be on the same side of 1 as a , b a, b , so it cannot be between a , b a,b .

A further conclusion (from what you have shown) is that if we force a , b , λ > 1 a, b, \lambda > 1 in the definition, then we always have λ \lambda in this interval.

Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 6 months ago

.. except that neither a a nor b b can be equal to 1 1 , since we have to be able to define log a \log_a and log b \log_b .

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 6 months ago
Leonel Castillo
Dec 11, 2017

If log a λ = log λ b \log_a \lambda = \log_{\lambda} b then ln λ ln a = ln b ln λ \frac{ \ln \lambda}{ \ln a} = \frac{ \ln b}{ \ln \lambda} and solving for λ \lambda , λ = e ln b ln a \lambda = e^{\sqrt{\ln b \ln a}} . After having this expression and playing around with it an easy way to construct a counter example arises by asking a simple question: Can really small a , b a,b yield really big λ \lambda ? The answer is yes, and I will just share the first counter example I constructed even though it is easy to produce other ones. Let a = e e 2 4 a= e^{-e^{\frac{2}{4}}} and b = e e 6 4 b = e^{-e^{\frac{6}{4}}} . It is clear that these numbers are really small, both obviously smaller than 1. Then we can compute λ = e e 2 4 e 6 4 = e e 2 = e e \lambda = e^{\sqrt{-e^{\frac{2}{4}} * -e^{\frac{6}{4}}}} = e^{\sqrt{e^2}} = e^e and this number is obviously bigger than 1 and therefore it cannot be between a a and b b .

Mariano Sassi
Dec 13, 2017

To show the negation of the question it just suffices a counterexample. Set a=2 and b=16 ad hoc and you get lambda=1/4 that is not between a and b (included).

Arjen Vreugdenhil
Dec 10, 2017

The situation is rather similar to the definition of the geometric mean in the way proposed. If a a and b b then b a b = b a = a b a , \frac b{-\sqrt{ab}} = -\sqrt{\frac{b}{a}} = \frac{-\sqrt{ab}}a, which proves that a b -\sqrt{ab} is "a geometric mean" of a a and b b , even though it is less than both of them.

Now replace a a by log a \log a and b b by log b \log b .

That is, for a , b > 1 a,b > 1 , define log λ = log a log b \log \lambda = -\sqrt{\log a\cdot \log b} ; then log a λ = log λ log a = log a log b log a = log b log a = log b log a log b = log b log λ = log λ b . \log_a \lambda = \frac{\log \lambda}{\log a} = \frac{-\sqrt{\log a\cdot \log b}}{\log a} = -\sqrt{\frac{\log b}{\log a}} = \frac{\log b}{-\sqrt{\log a\cdot \log b}} = \frac{\log b}{\log \lambda} = \log_\lambda b. Thus λ \lambda is "a special mean" of a a and b b , yet λ < 1 < a , b \lambda < 1 < a,b .

Mark Hennings
Dec 11, 2017

Let us suppose that 0 < a b 0 < a \le b . The condition to be a special mean tells us that ( ln λ ) 2 = ln a ln b (\ln \lambda)^2 = \ln a\, \ln b . Thus we must have ln a ln b 0 \ln a \, \ln b \ge 0 and then ln λ = ± ln a ln b \ln \lambda \; = \; \pm \sqrt{\ln a\, \ln b} Thus there are two possible special means, and one is the inverse of the other. If both of these special means lie between a a and b b , then (multiplying them together) 1 1 must lie between a 2 a^2 and b 2 b^2 , so that a 1 b a \le 1 \le b . If a < 1 < b a < 1 < b then ln a ln b < 0 \ln a\, \ln b <0 , and so no special mean exists. Thus we deduce that at least one of a , b a, \,b must be equal to 1 1 . But this is not possible, since the definition of the special mean requires us to be able to define logarithms to bases a a and b b , and there is no logarithm to base 1 1 .

Thus it is never the case that all special means (that exist) lie between a a and b b .

Anant Dixit
Dec 15, 2017

The way I solved it is by assuming a = b ( 0 , 1 ) a=b\neq (0,1) . Therefore, one can show, ( ln λ ) 2 = ( ln a ) 2 (\ln \lambda)^2 = (\ln a)^2 ln λ = ± ln a \Rightarrow \ln \lambda = \pm\ln a λ = a , 1 a \Rightarrow \lambda = a, \frac{1}{a}

a a is within the interval [ a , b ] [a,b] (inclusive), but 1 a \frac{1}{a} , a valid special mean, certainly is not.

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