This is irrational!

If x , x, y , y, x 2 , x^2, y 2 y^2 and x y xy are all irrational, is it possible that more than one of x y , x-y, x + y , x+y, x 2 y 2 , x^2-y^2, and x 2 + y 2 x^2+y^2 is rational?

Assume that x x and y y are real numbers with different absolute values.

Yes No Cannot be determined

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2 solutions

Suppose both x + y x + y and x y x - y are rational. Then by closure ( x + y ) + ( x y ) = 2 x (x + y) + (x - y) = 2x must also be rational. But this contradicts the given condition that x x (and hence 2 x 2x ) is irrational. So at most one of x + y x + y or x y x - y is rational. This in turn implies that if x + y x + y is rational then x y x - y is irrational, and vice versa.

Now if both x + y x + y and x y x - y are irrational then we will require that both x 2 y 2 x^{2} - y^{2} and x 2 + y 2 x^{2} + y^{2} be rational for the statement in question to be considered true. But if x 2 y 2 x^{2} - y^{2} is rational, then x 2 + y 2 = ( x 2 y 2 ) + 2 y 2 x^{2} + y^{2} = (x^{2} - y^{2}) + 2y^{2} will be irrational, since y 2 y^{2} is irrational, (and thus so is 2 y 2 2y^{2} ), and the sum of a rational and irrational number is always irrational. Similarly if x 2 + y 2 x^{2} + y^{2} is rational. So in this case at most one of the given four terms can be rational.

Now suppose x y x - y is rational. (Since x y |x| \ne |y| we have that x y x - y is non-zero). Then from before we already know that x + y x + y is irrational, and since the product of a non-zero rational and an irrational is always irrational we also have that x 2 y 2 = ( x y ) ( x + y ) x^{2} - y^{2} = (x - y)(x + y) is irrational. Next, note that x 2 + y 2 = ( x y ) 2 + 2 x y x^{2} + y^{2} = (x - y)^{2} + 2xy . Now with x y x - y being rational we have that ( x y ) 2 (x - y)^{2} is rational as well. Then since x y xy (and thus also 2 x y 2xy ) is given to be irrational, x 2 + y 2 x^{2} + y^{2} is irrational as well, (again since the sum of a rational and irrational is always irrational). A similar conclusion can be made if we had first assumed x + y x + y to be rational. So in this case at most one of the given four terms can be rational.

As we have then covered all possible cases, we conclude that the statement in question is not true.

Your solutions are always amazing :)

Ansh Bhatt - 5 years, 4 months ago

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Thanks! I appreciate the compliment. :)

Brian Charlesworth - 5 years, 4 months ago

I followed you right up until the end, where it seems to allow x-y and (x-y)^2 to both be rational, and you simply showed that the other two would be irrational, but that gives two rational numbers?

Also to use an example, if you had 2 irrational numbers which are exactly the same after the decimal point (ie y=x+n, where n is an integer), then logically both x-y and (x-y)^2 would be rational?

Harry Cooke - 5 years, 4 months ago

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If x y x - y is rational then ( x y ) 2 (x - y)^{2} is rational as well, but what we're concerned about is x 2 y 2 x^{2} - y^{2} , not ( x y ) 2 (x - y)^{2} . With x y x - y rational we know from before that x + y x + y must be irrational, and so x 2 y 2 = ( x y ) ( x + y ) x^{2} - y^{2} = (x - y)(x + y) must be irrational as well as it is the product of a non-zero rational and an irrational.

I then showed that x 2 + y 2 = ( x y ) 2 + 2 x y x^{2} + y^{2} = (x - y)^{2} + 2xy must also be irrational, leaving us with x y x - y being the only rational among the four terms x y , x + y , x 2 y 2 x - y, x + y, x^{2} - y^{2} and x 2 + y 2 x^{2} + y^{2} .

Regarding your example, in this case x y = n x - y = -n and ( x y ) 2 = n 2 (x - y)^{2} = n^{2} are both rational, but since x + y = 2 x + n x + y = 2x + n is irrational we would find that x 2 y 2 = ( x y ) ( x + y ) = 2 x n n 2 x^{2} - y^{2} = (x - y)(x + y) = -2xn - n^{2} is irrational.

Brian Charlesworth - 5 years, 4 months ago

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I wholeheartedly agree

Bob Heasley - 3 years ago

Typo: "visa versa" should be "vice versa" :)

Patrick Smears - 3 years, 5 months ago

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Haha Thanks for noticing that. :)

Brian Charlesworth - 3 years, 5 months ago

I think it's also possible to prove it geometrically using arguments but very nice solution especially in the factorization of x^2-y^2 and its use for x^2+y^2

Adam Donadille - 2 years, 5 months ago
Cheng Wei Chang
Jan 21, 2016

given x , y , x 2 , y 2 , x y Q x,y,x^2,y^2,xy \notin Q

  1. suppose ( x + y ) (x+y) and ( x y ) Q ( x + y ) + ( x y ) = 2 x Q x Q (x-y) \in Q \rightarrow (x+y)+(x-y)=2x \in Q \rightarrow x \in Q \rightarrow contradiction
  2. suppose ( x + y ) (x+y) and ( x 2 y 2 ) = ( x + y ) ( x y ) Q ( x + y ) ( x y ) / ( x + y ) = ( x y ) Q (x^2-y^2)=(x+y)(x-y) \in Q \rightarrow (x+y)(x-y)/(x+y)=(x-y)\in Q \rightarrow contradiction by (1)
  3. suppose ( x + y ) (x+y) and ( x 2 + y 2 ) Q ( x + y ) 2 = ( x 2 + 2 x y + y 2 ) Q ( x 2 + 2 x + y 2 ) ( x 2 + y 2 ) = 2 x y Q (x^2+y^2) \in Q \rightarrow (x+y)^2=(x^2+2xy+y^2) \in Q \rightarrow (x^2+2x+y^2)-(x^2+y^2)=2xy \in Q \rightarrow contradiction
  4. suppose ( x y ) (x-y) and ( x 2 y 2 ) = ( x + y ) ( x y ) Q ( x + y ) ( x y ) / ( x y ) = ( x + y ) Q (x^2-y^2)=(x+y)(x-y) \in Q \rightarrow (x+y)(x-y)/(x-y)=(x+y)\in Q \rightarrow contradiction by (1)
  5. suppose ( x y ) (x-y) and ( x 2 + y 2 ) Q ( x y ) 2 = ( x 2 2 x y + y 2 ) Q ( x 2 2 x y + y 2 ) ( x 2 + y 2 ) = 2 x y Q (x^2+y^2) \in Q \rightarrow (x-y)^2=(x^2-2xy+y^2) \in Q \rightarrow (x^2-2xy+y^2)-(x^2+y^2)=-2xy \in Q \rightarrow contradiction
  6. suppose ( x 2 y 2 ) (x^2-y^2) and ( x 2 + y 2 ) Q ( x 2 + y 2 ) + ( x 2 y 2 ) = 2 x 2 Q (x^2+y^2) \in Q \rightarrow (x^2+y^2)+(x^2-y^2)=2x^2 \in Q \rightarrow contradiction

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