Top Precession

A spinning top rotates about the axis passing through it as well as about a vertical axis. This motion is called precession.

The top's frequency of spinning decreases with time.

What happens to the top's frequency of precession with time?

It increases It remains constant It decreases

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8 solutions

Michael Mendrin
Sep 30, 2018

The angular velocity of precession of a top is inversely proportional to the spin speed of the top. So, as the top spins more slowly from friction, the frequency of precession increases.

Check out 3D Rigid Body Dynamics: Tops & Gyroscopes . Turn to page 5 and see equation (35).

The full explanation of this relationship is too much to put in here.

Moderator note:

Michael points out that the rate of precession is inversely proportional to the spin of the top, therefore as the top loses energy to friction, the rate of precession should increase. But how can we see this?

To start, we can write down the angular momentum vector of the top as L = I ω , \mathbf{L} = I\boldsymbol{\omega}, where ω \mathbf{\omega} points along the central axis of the top and I I is its moment of inertia.

For angular momentum to vary, there must be some torque acting upon it. In the case of the top, it's the pull of gravity acting upon the top's center of gravity. The moment arm of this torque is given by the position of the center of mass, as measured from the bottom of the top C.O.M. , \ell_\text{C.O.M.}, projected along the horizontal. It the top leans at an angle ϕ \phi to the vertical then that moment arm is simply C.O.M. sin ϕ . \ell_\text{C.O.M.}\sin\phi.

Putting it all together, we have

d d t L = τ I d d t ω = m top g C.O.M. sin ϕ \begin{aligned} \frac{d}{dt}\mathbf{L} &= \boldsymbol{\tau} \\ I\frac{d}{dt}\boldsymbol{\omega} &= m_\text{top}g\ell_\text{C.O.M.}\sin\phi \end{aligned}

On its face, this doesn't seem to yield a relationship between precession and the spin of the top. There's one step missing. Can you see a way to express sin ϕ \sin\phi in terms of the rate of precession?

Why? Spin = 1 / precession?

Friso van Hessen - 2 years, 8 months ago

That may be true but it does not explain why. I answered correctly because of my memory observing tops as a child.

Peter Middlehurst - 2 years, 8 months ago

Can you just give a detailed explanation why it is inversely proportional to the spin speed of the top. One thing is angular momentum of the top about the vertical axis is conserved as tvertical=0.

Srikanth Tupurani - 2 years, 8 months ago

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You might be able to get started by connecting the gravitational torque that's on the top to the dynamics of its angular momentum vector as it precesses, i.e. d L / d t = τ . d\mathbf{L}/dt = \boldsymbol{\tau}. One side tells you about the frequency of the precession while the other is related to the top's spin about its own axis.

Josh Silverman Staff - 2 years, 8 months ago

In order to understand it intuitively I think that it is crucial to realize that Torque ( τ \tau ) is a vector, which in the picture above is pointing out of the screen straight into our eyes, but in general a vector tangential to the circumference of precession. Remember that τ = r × F \tau =r \times F where × \times is the cross product and r r and F F are vectors. From the relation between Angular Momentum ( L L ) and Torque ( τ \tau ) we can also write down:

Δ L = Δ t . τ \Delta L= \Delta t . \tau

This means that a torque τ \tau after an infinitesimal amount of time will change the existing angular momentum of the top by Δ L \Delta L , and Δ L \Delta L will also be a vector pointing in the same direction of the torque τ \tau . This Δ L \Delta L vector added up to the top's current angular momentum L n L_{n} determines the next iteration angular momentum L n + 1 L_{n+1} . The top's angular momentum is another vector pointing up or down (depending in what direction the top is spinning) straight in the direction of the top's axis of rotation. Therefore Δ L \Delta L is \perp to L n L_{n} .

Adding the vector Δ L \Delta L to the vector L n L_{n} will slightly change the angle of the latter by Δ Θ \Delta \Theta , causing the top to precess. If L n L_{n} is very large to start with, the same Δ L \Delta L will cause a smaller Δ Θ \Delta \Theta between L n L_{n} and L n + 1 L_{n+1} compared to a smaller initial L n L_{n} , which will be perceived as a smaller precession angular velocity ω p r e c = Δ Θ Δ t \omega_{prec} = \frac{ \Delta \Theta }{ \Delta t} .

In other words the bigger it is the top's angular momentum to start with, the harder it is for the same torque to change it (change its direction).

As the top's angular velocity decreases, its angular momentum also decreases since L = I . ω L = I. \omega , therefore, even if the torque τ \tau would remain the same (it doesn't, it actually increases), Δ L \Delta L will, by simple vector addition, cause a bigger Δ Θ \Delta \Theta in the same Δ t \Delta t , i.e. the precession angular velocity increases as the top's angular velocity decreases.

P S - 2 years, 7 months ago

I thought that the axis passing through a spinning top was the vertical axis.

Kermit Rose - 2 years, 5 months ago
Rami Albelbeisi
Oct 1, 2018

Angular momentum conservation

Hmm, can you say some more?

Josh Silverman Staff - 2 years, 8 months ago

Since I come from the same camp, I think I can contribute Assuming there is no air resistance, the angular momentum must be conserved.

We know that angular momentum is proportional to angular velocity, or as one might call it, frequency.

Hence, as the spin part of the top decreases in angular velocity, the moment of inertia for it staying constant (because the top is not deformed around it's axis of rotation), the angular momentum it contributes decreases, hence other components of the spinning system must increase their contribution. Hence, the angular momentum of the precession part must increase. Hence the angular velocity, or speed of precession increases.

NOTE : The moment of inertia of the top around it's axis of precession also increases, because as the spin slows, the magnitude of the gyroscopic effect also the decreases, so gravity can pull the center of mass downwards downwards. This decreases the angle that the top makes with the ground also decreases, and the distance of the center of mass from the axis increases (because cosine), increasing the moment of inertia. Now why doesn't the increase in angular momentum come entirely from the moment of inertia, that I don't know. Maybe someone with more formal knowledge * cough * Josh Silverman * cough * can supplement that

EDIT : Ok maybe I'll post that as a solution

Varad Mahashabde - 2 years, 8 months ago
Garv Khurana
Sep 30, 2018

Clearly, when we spin a top it starts losing balance because it is not completely centered. As time goes on it loses balance more quickly. Therefore, the frequency of the precession will increase as time goes on. =). This is because intuitively the top accelerates more quickly as it loses its balance.

I find it hard to see what you mean by "lose balance" here. That sounds to me like the top is "falling over", but it's clear the top doesn't fall over like it would if it weren't spinning.

Josh Silverman Staff - 2 years, 8 months ago

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I guess he means that the top tilts more and more. But I'm not sure as well.

Aatman Supkar - 2 years, 8 months ago
Varad Mahashabde
Oct 7, 2018

Assuming there is no air resistance, the angular momentum must be conserved.

We know that angular momentum is proportional to angular velocity, or as one might call it, frequency.

M = I ω M = I\omega

Hence, as the spin part of the top decreases in angular velocity, the moment of inertia for it staying constant (because the top is not deformed around it's axis of rotation), the angular momentum it contributes decreases, hence other components of the spinning system must increase their contribution. Hence, the angular momentum of the precession part must increase. Hence the angular velocity, or speed of precession increases.

NOTE : The moment of inertia of the top around it's axis of precession also increases, because as the spin slows, the magnitude of the gyroscopic effect also the decreases, so gravity can pull the center of mass downwards downwards. This decreases the angle that the top makes with the ground also decreases, and the distance of the center of mass from the axis increases (because cosine), increasing the moment of inertia. Now why doesn't the increase in angular momentum come entirely from the moment of inertia, that I don't know. Maybe someone with more formal knowledge * cough * Josh Silverman * cough * can supplement that

Varad Mahashabde - 2 years, 8 months ago
Hani Haddad
Oct 4, 2018

Imagine the spinning at t=0 the precession is equal to 0 cause the axe is vertical. But when the spinning begin to decrease the precission is different from 0. Then it must be increasing.

It falls over when it stops

Which proves that over a large enough t, angular velocity of precision decreased and at any t greater than that t, the v continues to stay 0.. There may be a short term increase, but ultimately its a net and permanent decrease.

Elias Cotton - 2 years, 8 months ago
Aurko Haldi
Oct 6, 2018

This is the hint,

I leave it up to you to connect the dots..

See hint

Siddharth Jindal
Oct 4, 2018

I've spun enough tops to know this stuff.

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