Troll Quadratic

Algebra Level 5

How many ordered pairs of solutions ( a , b ) (a,b) are there such that:

  • a a is a root of the quadratic equation y = x 2 + a x + b y = x^2 + ax + b
  • b b is a root of the quadratic equation y = x 2 + a x + b y = x^2 + ax + b

Warning: Think twice before you answer. If you didn't find any tricky part, then you probably got it wrong and should reconsider.

Source: BOGTRO from AoPS (I think).
1 3 4 2

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5 solutions

Ariel Gershon
Feb 24, 2015

Since a , b a,b are roots of the equation, then we have: { ( 1 ) : f ( a ) = 2 a 2 + b = 0 ( 2 ) : f ( b ) = b 2 + a b + b = 0 \left\{ \begin{array}{lr} (1) : f(a) = 2a^2 + b = 0 \\ (2) : f(b) = b^2 + ab + b = 0 \end{array} \right. From ( 1 ) (1) we see that b = 2 a 2 b = -2a^2 .

From ( 2 ) (2) , we see that b ( b + a + 1 ) = 0 b(b+a+1) = 0 . Substituting the above equation gives us 2 a 2 ( 2 a 2 + a + 1 ) = 0 -2a^2(-2a^2+a+1) = 0 This equation has three distinct solutions: a = 0 , 1 , 1 2 a = 0, 1, -\frac{1}{2} . This gives us three distinct solutions: ( 0 , 0 ) , ( 1 , 2 ) , ( 1 2 , 1 2 ) (0,0), (1,-2), \left(-\dfrac{1}{2}, -\dfrac{1}{2}\right) .

Hence there are a total of 3 \boxed{3} solutions.

Better than the soln. above. It's compact & straight. Thank you.

Neeraj Snappy - 6 years, 3 months ago

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Good and simple solution. Thanks.

Niranjan Khanderia - 6 years, 3 months ago

that s what we call beautiful

Omar El Mokhtar - 6 years, 3 months ago

This is exactly the way I solved it and I don't really see anything special about this question.I mean its like a free 165 points to me.Is there anything I might be missing?

Arian Tashakkor - 6 years, 1 month ago

Could not think of better simplification! Too good =)

Yogesh Verma - 6 years, 3 months ago

pls let's check the ansa very well.because sum of roots and the product of roots : a+b=-a and ab=b does not show that (-1/2,-1/2) is a really nice solution but other values not only give Y=0 but also satisfy the sum and product form.this was where i thought would be the tricky part self

Benjamin ononogbu - 5 years, 6 months ago

Place (b=0) and (a=some negative number). Now product will be zero and sum will be (+b) as given in equation. How its not possible????

sai nath - 5 years, 1 month ago

Has the question been mis-stated? Should it read "the quadratic equation x^2 + ax + b =0" rather than "the quadratic equation y = x^2 + ax + b"?

Paul Hindess - 4 years, 8 months ago

This is very wrong because ONLY ordered pairs (a, b)=(0, 0) and (1, -2) are solutions. Third case with a=b= -1/2 has to be cancelled because x^2 - 1/2*x - 1/2 = 0 has solutions 1 and -1/2 in contradiction to the assumption of the problem!

So I demand my points for solution "2" of this task!!!

Thank you very much!

Andreas Wendler - 5 years, 6 months ago

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Check Daniel Liu's solution below. He mentions your issue.

Marcus Vinicius M L da Cruz - 5 years, 6 months ago
Daniel Liu
Feb 23, 2015

We proceed as expected: obviously, we have x 2 + a x + b = ( x a ) ( x b ) x^2+ax+b=(x-a)(x-b)

Expanding gives x 2 + a x + b = x 2 ( a + b ) x + a b x^2+ax+b=x^2-(a+b)x+ab which means a = ( a + b ) a=-(a+b) and b = a b b=ab .

If b = 0 b=0 , then a = 0 a=0 and we have our first solution ( a , b ) = ( 0 , 0 ) (a,b)=(0,0) .

If b 0 b\ne 0 , then dividing by b b in the second equation gives a = 1 a=1 which gives b = 2 b=-2 so our second solution is ( a , b ) = ( 1 , 2 ) (a,b)=(1,-2) .

This is where the tricky part comes in: I never said that a a and b b were the two roots of the quadratic, I just said that they were roots. Therefore, we have one more case where a a and b b are referring to the same root .

Thus, in this case a = b a=b and we have the equation x 2 + a x + a = ( x a ) ( x c ) x^2+ax+a=(x-a)(x-c) for some c c .

Expanding gives x 2 + a x + a = x 2 ( a + c ) x + a c x^2+ax+a=x^2-(a+c)x+ac which implies a = ( a + c ) a=-(a+c) and a = a c a=ac .

If a = 0 a=0 , then c = 0 c=0 and we get a solution we already found.

If a 0 a\ne 0 , then dividing both sides of the second equation by a a gives c = 1 c=1 so a = 1 2 a=-\dfrac{1}{2} which gives the solution ( a , b ) = ( 1 2 , 1 2 ) (a,b)=\left(-\dfrac{1}{2},-\dfrac{1}{2}\right)

This gives a total of 3 \boxed{3} ordered pairs of solutions.

You'd make a great attorney. Have you considered a career in law?

Michael Mendrin - 6 years, 3 months ago

Opposite happened with me -_-. What i did: Since , a and b are roots, we get equations, 2 a 2 + b = 0 , b 2 + b + a b = 0 2a^2+b=0, b^2+b+ab=0 Subtracting equations gives b = a , b = 2 a b=a , b=-2a This gives all three solutions.

Now, since i got this in one time, i thought that maybe the troll part is that we don't have to include (-1/2,-1/2) and marked (2) --- _ ----

Shivang Jindal - 6 years, 3 months ago

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I didn't include ( 1 2 , 1 2 ) (-\frac{1}{2}, -\frac{1}{2}) because the roots of x 2 1 2 x 1 2 x^2 - \frac{1}{2}x - \frac{1}{2} are 1 2 -\frac{1}{2} and 1 1 which contradicts the assumption that ( 1 2 , 1 2 ) (-\frac{1}{2}, -\frac{1}{2}) are the roots.

But so troll. The reverse psychology is real.

Evan Lee - 6 years, 3 months ago

Same here.

Jakub Kocák - 6 years, 3 months ago

Same here.

Kartik Sharma - 6 years, 3 months ago

2 is the correct number of ordered pairs. The answer provided is incorrect. (-.5 , -.5) is an extraneous solution.

Bob Kadylo - 5 years, 8 months ago

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For a=b=x=-1/2, x^2+ax+b = (-1/2)^2 + (-1/2)(-1/2) + (-1/2) = 1/4 + 1/4 - 1/2 = 0. So when (a,b)=(-1/2,-1/2), -1/2 is a root of the expression, thus that combination of a and b meets the stated requirements (a and b are roots) and is therefore a solution. Note that the problem statement should have talked about roots of the quadratic expression involving x,a,b, not of the equation involving y. Apparently nearly everybody "knew what was meant."

Doug Gwyn - 5 years ago

We can use Vieta's Formula. a+b=-a and ab=b.

Niranjan Khanderia - 6 years, 3 months ago

Twas' O Σ \displaystyle O\Sigma . Ready to troll every problem which says, "...are roots to...".

Satvik Golechha - 6 years, 3 months ago

Good question. I was about to get it wrong before I realized that there is nowhere written distinct

Kushal Patankar - 6 years, 3 months ago

I remember this question, I think I read about it in the discussion about an ambiguous question from some contest.

James Shi - 6 years, 3 months ago

Nice understanding tricky part!

Min Li - 6 years, 3 months ago

Hey! The given equation is equal to y not 0 so you cant directly equate it to the product of its factors, can you? Tell me if I am wrong... Nice question though! :)

Yogesh Verma - 6 years, 3 months ago

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Well, you are trying to find the roots of the equation, so you set y = 0 y=0 .

Daniel Liu - 6 years, 3 months ago

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I think if you can trick us by not having said 'a' and 'b' were the TWO roots, then we should insist you not call y = x 2 + a x + b y=x^2+ax+b "quadratic equation" ! 'a' and 'b' are either x-intercepts of the function y = x 2 + a x + b y=x^2+ax+b or roots of the equation 0 = x 2 + a x + b 0=x^2+ax+b !! I completely agree with Michael Mendrin's comment.

Bob Kadylo - 5 years, 5 months ago

the tricky part is amazing

Omar El Mokhtar - 6 years, 3 months ago

A nice problem.

Tanish Singhal - 6 years, 3 months ago

Well done, the reverse psychology got me there. The idea that a a and b b represent the same root is so counter-intuitive that I never consider that it will be the case. Instead, I reject the case ( 1 2 , 1 2 ) (-\frac{1}{2}, -\frac{1}{2}) , because this quadratic yields two different roots. Talk about irony...

ZK LIn - 5 years, 5 months ago

Don't tell me I didn't warn you about how tricky this is!

Daniel Liu - 6 years, 3 months ago

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You should highlight the word to

U Z - 6 years, 3 months ago

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Then it would not trick people anymore :)

Joel Tan - 6 years, 3 months ago

So tricky that the answer is incorrect ! There are only two equations whose roots are the coefficients of the lowest degree terms:0= x 2 x^2 +x-2 (roots of 1 and -2) and 0= x 2 x^2 (roots of 0 and 0 or you could say root of 0 with multiplicity two) If you claim that the equation 0= x 2 x^2 -.5x -.5 is another such equation - you are wrong because the roots are -.5 and 1

Bob Kadylo - 5 years, 8 months ago

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But note even in (-0.5,-0.5) both a=-0.5,b=-0.5 are roots of the equation x^2-0.5x-0.5=0. That's what makes this problem so tricky. If you solve it using x^2+ax+b=(x-a)(x-b) you will get it wrong .(I got it wrong as well!)

Manish Bhat - 5 years, 5 months ago

This is one of the most awesome problems I have ever seen! @Daniel Liu

Nihar Mahajan - 5 years, 4 months ago

Because a a and b b are roots of the equation f ( x ) = x 2 + a x + b = 0 f(x) = x^2 + ax + b = 0 , we have: f ( a ) = 2 a 2 + b = 0 f ( b ) = b 2 + a b + b = 0 f(a) = 2a^2 + b = 0 \\ f(b) = b^2 + ab + b = 0

The first equation can be rewritten as:

b = 2 a 2 b = -2a^2

Substituting it into the second equation:

4 a 4 2 a 3 2 a 2 = 0 4a^4 - 2a^3 - 2a^2 = 0

a 2 ( 4 a 2 2 a 2 ) = 0 \Leftrightarrow a^2(4a^2 - 2a - 2) = 0

a 2 ( a 1 ) ( a + 1 2 ) = 0 \Leftrightarrow a^2(a - 1)(a+\frac {1} {2}) = 0

a = 0 \Leftrightarrow a = 0 or a = 1 a = 1 or a = 1 2 a =- \frac {1} {2}

Therefore there are three solutions of ( a , b ) (a,b)

Can you please explain how your solution is different from that of Ariel Gershon's ?

Niranjan Khanderia - 6 years, 3 months ago

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Oh I think I overlooked his solution.

Tín Phạm Nguyễn - 6 years, 3 months ago

Its a more detailed one.

Stas Glazkov - 3 years, 3 months ago
Shaun Loong
Aug 12, 2015

Consider equal roots case, hence a = b a=b . Then, we have a 2 + a 2 + a = 0 a = 0 , 1 2 a^2+a^2+a=0\Rightarrow a=0, -\frac{1}{2} . Hence, two ordered pairs here, that is ( a , b ) = ( 0 , 0 ) , ( 1 2 , 1 2 ) (a,b)=(0,0),(-\frac{1}{2},-\frac{1}{2}) .

Now consider different roots case. Since the sum of roots is a -a and product of roots is b b , we have a + b = a a+b=-a and a b = b ab=b . Solving the system of equation gives the ordered pairs ( a , b ) = ( 1 , 2 ) , ( 0 , 0 ) (a,b)=(1,2),(0,0) .

In total, there are 3 \boxed{3} distinct \textbf{distinct} ordered pairs.

the last pair is (1,-2), not (1,2).

really good way to solve it :)

Guilherme Ferreira Carvalho - 5 years, 5 months ago
Lu Chee Ket
Dec 10, 2015

We mustn't compare half way in this question by treating d e p e n d e n t dependent v a r i a b l e s variables as independent variables. To simplify the solving process, let's just discuss why (a, b) of (0, 0), (1, -2) and also (-0.5, -0.5) are all suitable.

Both x 2 + a x + b = 0 x^2 + a x + b = 0 and x 2 ( a + b ) x + a b = 0 x^2 - (a + b) x + a b = 0 ought to be satisfied, by ignoring y as how roots are defined for a given polynomial.

Four equations as follows are all satisfied by (a, b) of values either (0, 0), (1, -2) or ( 1 2 , 1 2 -\frac12, -\frac12 ):

1) a 2 + a a + b = 0 a^2 + a a + b = 0

2) a 2 ( a + b ) a + a b = 0 a^2 - (a + b) a + a b = 0

3) b 2 + a b + b = 0 b^2 + a b + b = 0

4) b 2 ( a + b ) b + a b = 0 b^2 - (a + b) b + a b = 0

Since all of the 3 ordered pairs introduced satisfy as dependent variables to equations, they are all valid cases.

Answer: 3 \boxed{3}

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