This discussion board is a place to discuss our Daily Challenges and the math and science
related to those challenges. Explanations are more than just a solution — they should
explain the steps and thinking strategies that you used to obtain the solution. Comments
should further the discussion of math and science.
When posting on Brilliant:
Use the emojis to react to an explanation, whether you're congratulating a job well done , or just really confused .
Ask specific questions about the challenge or the steps in somebody's explanation. Well-posed questions can add a lot to the discussion, but posting "I don't understand!" doesn't help anyone.
Try to contribute something new to the discussion, whether it is an extension, generalization or other idea related to the challenge.
Stay on topic — we're all here to learn more about math and science, not to hear about your favorite get-rich-quick scheme or current world events.
Markdown
Appears as
*italics* or _italics_
italics
**bold** or __bold__
bold
- bulleted - list
bulleted
list
1. numbered 2. list
numbered
list
Note: you must add a full line of space before and after lists for them to show up correctly
In other words, the system has two fixed points, x=0 and x=2. However, plugging in x=0 to the original expression, we find it is not a fixed point (the reason for this apparent contradiction is we lost some information when we squared both sides of the expression.)
It's easy to check that x=2is a fixed point.
Let f(x)=x+(1−x)c2+c(1−x)2c2+x(2−x)
Differentiating, we find
f′(2)=0
so that x=2 is in fact a stable fixed point, and the iterated function system does indeed converge to Sn=2.
Now Q1 is simple; since Sn→2, Sn−Sn−1=an→0
For q3, we can use small angle approximations. The thing to keep track of is Tn=2−Sn. As above, we get
Tn+1=Tn+(1−Tn)c2−c(1−Tn)2c2+Tn(2−Tn)
With c=cosθ≈1−21θ2, neglecting terms in θ3 and above, this becomes
Tn+1≈Tn+(1−Tn)(1−θ2)−(1−21θ2)(1−Tn)2(1−θ2)+Tn(2−Tn)=Tn+(1−Tn)(1−θ2)−(1−21θ2)1−(1−Tn)2θ2
Since both θ and 1−Tn are small, we can also approximate the square root:
Tn+1≈Tn+(1−Tn)(1−θ2)−(1−21θ2)(1−21(1−Tn)2θ2)
After tidying up, this (amazingly) becomes
Tn+1≈21θ2Tn2
I'd appreciate some double-checking here, but this seems pretty accurate. If we take θ=0.2 (which is not even that small; it's about 11.5∘), and compare the exact and approximated T values, the errors are very small.
So, this approximate T has a much more simple recurrence, and it's solvable; since T0=2, we get
Tn=2θ2n+1−2
This still looks a bit crazy, but hopefully you'll recognise the exponents:
These are wonderful! Thank you for these amazing proofs! (I forgot to mention that earlier.)
I have a question about fixed points; if x is a fixed point, is −1<f′(x)<1 a sufficient condition of showing that that fixed point is attractive? Or are these two equivalent?
I think the only thing to be careful of is additional points with zero derivative, but there aren't any others here. Each iterate of x will be closer to the fixed point than the last, and that's all you need.
What's the derivation of this question? Did you find this recurrence from another calculation? If so that might be useful.
No solution yet but some observations:
The form of the recurrence looks a lot like the solution of a quadratic; in fact, an+1 is one of the roots of
c2x2−2(1−Sn)x−Sn(2−Sn)=0
we can reformulate this purely in terms of Sn; we have S1=2c2 and
Sn+1=Sn+(1−Sn)c2+c(1−Sn)2c2+Sn(2−Sn)
if we let Tn=2−Sn and substitute in (with the idea of proving that Tn→0 in order to answer Q1 and Q2), we get
Tn+1=Tn+(1−Tn)c2−c(1−Tn)2c2+Tn(2−Tn)
which is really similar to the relation for Sn
alternatively, letting Rn=1−Sn and s=1−c2, we find
Rn+1=s2Rn−c1−s2Rn2
which looks a little like some sort of elliptic function. (That choice of s is to make it equal to sinθ).
Wow. Well, I came up with this problem to reinforce (prove) my intuition. It’s easy. Think of a semi circle whose original circle’s radius is 1 and from one end point draw a line which has a slope of tanθ. From the point that the line and circle intersects, draw a line that is perpendicular to the diameter. From the point that this line and diameter intersects repeat this process(starting from drawing a line whose slope is tanθ). Define the distance of the points on the diameter (ie from endpoint to the first point, first point to the second point) as an.
If you followed through, the recurrence that I posted can be found easily. And it is easy to see that the infinite sum of an will be the length of the diameter ‘2’. I hope this can help :)
OK, cool, that makes sense. Just to be completely sure, we're looking at this diagram, right?
I'm wondering if there's a different way to write your q3. It looks like you're after the general behaviour of the sequence {an} for small θ, ie for c=cosθ close to 1 (by the way, it's a bit confusing to use "c" in two places the way you have - it might be better to use something other than cn.)
If that's right, there might be some small-angle approximations you can use. The diagram suggests that these should be pretty good for small θ.
Before I go on too much, could you let me know if I've understood your questions correctly? And if you could rephrase or discuss q3 that might be helpful too.
@Chris Lewis
–
Q3 is asked cuz I am just curious if {c_n}=2 for n=2,3,4... It may seem a little preposterous but I’m curious that’s all.
My calculations are the following for the two sequences: b2=2, b3=6, b4=14 and c2=c3=c4=2
From that point on, it is out of my limits. The questions seem crystal clear now and I am willing to know if there has been any progress made from now on. Thx again!
@Inquisitor Math
–
So, the small angle idea does work. The thing to keep track of is Tn=2−Sn. As above, we get
Tn+1=Tn+(1−Tn)c2−c(1−Tn)2c2+Tn(2−Tn)
With c=cosθ≈1−21θ2, neglecting terms in θ3 and above, this becomes
Tn+1≈Tn+(1−Tn)(1−θ2)−(1−21θ2)(1−Tn)2(1−θ2)+Tn(2−Tn)=Tn+(1−Tn)(1−θ2)−(1−21θ2)1−(1−Tn)2θ2
Since both θ and 1−Tn are small, we can also approximate the square root:
Tn+1≈Tn+(1−Tn)(1−θ2)−(1−21θ2)(1−21(1−Tn)2θ2)
After tidying up, this (amazingly) becomes
Tn+1≈21θ2Tn2
I'd appreciate some double-checking here, but this seems pretty accurate. If we take θ=0.2 (which is not even that small; it's about 11.5∘), and compare the exact and approximated T values, the errors are very small.
So, this approximate T has a much more simple recurrence, and it's solvable; since T0=2, we get
Tn=2θ2n+1−2
This still looks a bit crazy, but hopefully you'll recognise the exponents:
@Inquisitor Math
–
It gives you the first term in the expansion in powers of θ; that's what you need for q3 (you were looking for cn, which is the coefficient of this term, and is always 2; and bn is the exponent). I realise it looks pretty rough, but you can either (a) do some δ,ϵ style bounding (the analysis approach) or (b) just go with it (the fluid dynamics approach ;-)). The point with (b) is that the approximations get better as θ gets smaller, and that's exactly what we're interested in.
As for q1, q2, I hadn't been looking at them - but I think they follow directly from the geometry, no?
Although...now I've typed that, I'm irritated with myself, because I tested for c values outside the range (0,1), and it still seems to work. So maybe something more "pure algebra" would be better.
I managed to get somewhere with q3 by using small angle approximations, but of course they don't help for the general case. I'm back to looking at q2 now (because that does solve q1).
@Chris Lewis
–
The reason why I did not mention the geometry in the first place was cuz I want to see it proven just by using the recurrence itself, that is pure algebra.(it would be very weird to think the opposite way ie going to that geometric approach, right?)
@Inquisitor Math
–
Fair enough - I agree an algebraic proof would be interesting. But I'd challenge the idea that solving a non-geometry question with geometry is weird; the first proof I saw of the law of quadratic reciprocity used trigonometry; a whole load of arguments in dynamical systems are geometric. I'm sure there are other examples too.
@Chris Lewis
–
Just asking, is there any field in math or any mathematical tool that can be useful for discussing about ‘bouncing’(you get the expression right?this line kinda bounces between the curve and the line)? Writing this down, this seems like a stupid question!
@Inquisitor Math
–
I can only think of coordinate geometry, really, but you've already been using that. I guess with these problems I quite often move between geometry/trigonometry, coordinate geometry and properties of polynomials. So for instance when you're looking at two curves being tangent to each other, it's often useful to think in terms of a double root; then you've got all the machinery of discriminants and some differential calculus you can use.
If this question had been about something like a light-ray, with different reflection properties, then vectors would have been more useful.
I think - especially with the kind of problem that you come up with yourself (so, not a textbook problem, which fits a certain topic, or an olympiad problem, which you at least know has an answer), it's worth trying as many ideas as you can. Sometimes it doesn't go anywhere, sometimes it takes ages to think of the right approach, and then the problem's easy, but sometimes you find something new and interesting. It also helps a lot in developing an intuition for problem solving.
@Chris Lewis
–
Me too! It was mesmerizing and fantastic to see how that worked out! By the way are you going to tackle the problem in an algebraic way for the remaining problems?
I would like to add a problem Q4 which just came up to my mind. Take a look at it. (Since {a_n} was the length, in this case it is the area.)
Just saying en passant, approaching this geometrically I think this does not necessarily have to be a circle, instead maybe some arbitrary function that satisfies some conditions for this scenario. Dunno this will have any meaning tho
Have you got any preliminary results or conjectures for your q4? I've done some numerical calculations, but nothing obvious is standing out. I'm not quite convinced there would be a "nice" expression for this in general.
@Chris Lewis
–
I've started a separate comment for "final" results (since this thread is getting complicated). I've put in an algebraic proof for q1 and q2, and the proof from above for q3. Let me know your thoughts on q4.
@Chris Lewis
–
How about showing(proving) that Q4 approaches π/2 as θ approaches π/2 first? That seems like a meaningful question, and maybe help for the general case :)
@Inquisitor Math
–
I calculated the sum (up to n=2000) for a few small values of c:
c
∑an2
c2π
0.02
0.031423
0.031416
0.01
0.015709
0.015708
0.005
0.007854
0.007854
0.0025
0.003927
0.003927
The calculations were based on the original recurrence you posted. They could be subject to rounding errors (I'm just using Excel). If you're getting different results could you post them for comparison?
If you check your recurrence, when c=0, you just get an=0 for all n, so the limit does make sense.
@Chris Lewis
–
If it is possible to approximate like that is the answer π/2? (By the way where did π/2 come from? Did you approach the problem in a algebraic way or some other way?)
@Inquisitor Math
–
It was just a numerical observation based on playing with the data. It's interesting to now look at c≈0 (where before we were looking at c≈1). I've tried simply discarding terms in c2 from the recurrence but this doesn't quite work.
@Chris Lewis
–
Hey! I think I found a non rigorous proof for q5. Imagine a convex 2n regular polygon that is inscribed inside a circle with radius 1. Divide the polygon into two parts by the diameter. Draw triangles by drawing lines with slope of tan(n-1)π/(2n). The infinite sum of those triangles can be approximated to half the area of the divided polygon as n gets larger and larger. (infinite sum we are looking for q5) divided by 2 = 4π, Thus the answer is 2π
@Inquisitor Math
–
Ha, that looks good - I guess it's tricky to show exactly how much of the circle is actually filled by those triangles? Not quite sure. It might be worth adding a diagram.
Easy Math Editor
This discussion board is a place to discuss our Daily Challenges and the math and science related to those challenges. Explanations are more than just a solution — they should explain the steps and thinking strategies that you used to obtain the solution. Comments should further the discussion of math and science.
When posting on Brilliant:
*italics*
or_italics_
**bold**
or__bold__
paragraph 1
paragraph 2
[example link](https://brilliant.org)
> This is a quote
\(
...\)
or\[
...\]
to ensure proper formatting.2 \times 3
2^{34}
a_{i-1}
\frac{2}{3}
\sqrt{2}
\sum_{i=1}^3
\sin \theta
\boxed{123}
Comments
Let's start with Q2. As discussed above, we can formulate the recurrence purely in terms of Sn as Sn+1=Sn+(1−Sn)c2+c(1−Sn)2c2+Sn(2−Sn)
Consider the recurrence as an iterated function scheme. Does it have any fixed points? Say x is a fixed point; then
x(1−x)c2(1−x)c(1−x)2c2x(2−x)=x+(1−x)c2+c(1−x)2c2+x(2−x)=−c(1−x)2c2+x(2−x)=−(1−x)2c2+x(2−x)=(1−x)2c2+x(2−x)=0
In other words, the system has two fixed points, x=0 and x=2. However, plugging in x=0 to the original expression, we find it is not a fixed point (the reason for this apparent contradiction is we lost some information when we squared both sides of the expression.)
It's easy to check that x=2 is a fixed point.
Let f(x)=x+(1−x)c2+c(1−x)2c2+x(2−x)
Differentiating, we find f′(2)=0
so that x=2 is in fact a stable fixed point, and the iterated function system does indeed converge to Sn=2.
Now Q1 is simple; since Sn→2, Sn−Sn−1=an→0
For q3, we can use small angle approximations. The thing to keep track of is Tn=2−Sn. As above, we get Tn+1=Tn+(1−Tn)c2−c(1−Tn)2c2+Tn(2−Tn)
With c=cosθ≈1−21θ2, neglecting terms in θ3 and above, this becomes Tn+1≈Tn+(1−Tn)(1−θ2)−(1−21θ2)(1−Tn)2(1−θ2)+Tn(2−Tn)=Tn+(1−Tn)(1−θ2)−(1−21θ2)1−(1−Tn)2θ2
Since both θ and 1−Tn are small, we can also approximate the square root: Tn+1≈Tn+(1−Tn)(1−θ2)−(1−21θ2)(1−21(1−Tn)2θ2)
After tidying up, this (amazingly) becomes Tn+1≈21θ2Tn2
I'd appreciate some double-checking here, but this seems pretty accurate. If we take θ=0.2 (which is not even that small; it's about 11.5∘), and compare the exact and approximated T values, the errors are very small.
So, this approximate T has a much more simple recurrence, and it's solvable; since T0=2, we get Tn=2θ2n+1−2
This still looks a bit crazy, but hopefully you'll recognise the exponents:
Log in to reply
These are wonderful! Thank you for these amazing proofs! (I forgot to mention that earlier.)
I have a question about fixed points; if x is a fixed point, is −1<f′(x)<1 a sufficient condition of showing that that fixed point is attractive? Or are these two equivalent?
Log in to reply
I think the only thing to be careful of is additional points with zero derivative, but there aren't any others here. Each iterate of x will be closer to the fixed point than the last, and that's all you need.
Perhaps you can write the problem on a sheet and upload a snapshot. That way, it will be readable.
Log in to reply
Since it is readable now, can you help me?
Log in to reply
Yes, it is readable. I will try this problem and if I can solve it, I will reply on this thread.
Have you made any progress yet?
Log in to reply
I think that your guesses for Q 1 and Q 2 are correct. I have had no success in solving part 3.
Log in to reply
What's the derivation of this question? Did you find this recurrence from another calculation? If so that might be useful.
No solution yet but some observations:
The form of the recurrence looks a lot like the solution of a quadratic; in fact, an+1 is one of the roots of c2x2−2(1−Sn)x−Sn(2−Sn)=0
we can reformulate this purely in terms of Sn; we have S1=2c2 and Sn+1=Sn+(1−Sn)c2+c(1−Sn)2c2+Sn(2−Sn)
if we let Tn=2−Sn and substitute in (with the idea of proving that Tn→0 in order to answer Q1 and Q2), we get Tn+1=Tn+(1−Tn)c2−c(1−Tn)2c2+Tn(2−Tn) which is really similar to the relation for Sn
alternatively, letting Rn=1−Sn and s=1−c2, we find Rn+1=s2Rn−c1−s2Rn2
which looks a little like some sort of elliptic function. (That choice of s is to make it equal to sinθ).
Log in to reply
Wow. Well, I came up with this problem to reinforce (prove) my intuition. It’s easy. Think of a semi circle whose original circle’s radius is 1 and from one end point draw a line which has a slope of tanθ. From the point that the line and circle intersects, draw a line that is perpendicular to the diameter. From the point that this line and diameter intersects repeat this process(starting from drawing a line whose slope is tanθ). Define the distance of the points on the diameter (ie from endpoint to the first point, first point to the second point) as an. If you followed through, the recurrence that I posted can be found easily. And it is easy to see that the infinite sum of an will be the length of the diameter ‘2’. I hope this can help :)
Log in to reply
OK, cool, that makes sense. Just to be completely sure, we're looking at this diagram, right?
I'm wondering if there's a different way to write your q3. It looks like you're after the general behaviour of the sequence {an} for small θ, ie for c=cosθ close to 1 (by the way, it's a bit confusing to use "c" in two places the way you have - it might be better to use something other than cn.)
If that's right, there might be some small-angle approximations you can use. The diagram suggests that these should be pretty good for small θ.
Before I go on too much, could you let me know if I've understood your questions correctly? And if you could rephrase or discuss q3 that might be helpful too.
Log in to reply
My calculations are the following for the two sequences: b2=2, b3=6, b4=14 and c2=c3=c4=2 From that point on, it is out of my limits. The questions seem crystal clear now and I am willing to know if there has been any progress made from now on. Thx again!
Log in to reply
Tn=2−Sn. As above, we get Tn+1=Tn+(1−Tn)c2−c(1−Tn)2c2+Tn(2−Tn)
So, the small angle idea does work. The thing to keep track of isWith c=cosθ≈1−21θ2, neglecting terms in θ3 and above, this becomes Tn+1≈Tn+(1−Tn)(1−θ2)−(1−21θ2)(1−Tn)2(1−θ2)+Tn(2−Tn)=Tn+(1−Tn)(1−θ2)−(1−21θ2)1−(1−Tn)2θ2
Since both θ and 1−Tn are small, we can also approximate the square root: Tn+1≈Tn+(1−Tn)(1−θ2)−(1−21θ2)(1−21(1−Tn)2θ2)
After tidying up, this (amazingly) becomes Tn+1≈21θ2Tn2
I'd appreciate some double-checking here, but this seems pretty accurate. If we take θ=0.2 (which is not even that small; it's about 11.5∘), and compare the exact and approximated T values, the errors are very small.
So, this approximate T has a much more simple recurrence, and it's solvable; since T0=2, we get Tn=2θ2n+1−2
This still looks a bit crazy, but hopefully you'll recognise the exponents:
which I think answers your q3!
Log in to reply
Log in to reply
θ; that's what you need for q3 (you were looking for cn, which is the coefficient of this term, and is always 2; and bn is the exponent). I realise it looks pretty rough, but you can either (a) do some δ,ϵ style bounding (the analysis approach) or (b) just go with it (the fluid dynamics approach ;-)). The point with (b) is that the approximations get better as θ gets smaller, and that's exactly what we're interested in.
It gives you the first term in the expansion in powers ofAs for q1, q2, I hadn't been looking at them - but I think they follow directly from the geometry, no?
Although...now I've typed that, I'm irritated with myself, because I tested for c values outside the range (0,1), and it still seems to work. So maybe something more "pure algebra" would be better.
I managed to get somewhere with q3 by using small angle approximations, but of course they don't help for the general case. I'm back to looking at q2 now (because that does solve q1).
Log in to reply
Log in to reply
Log in to reply
Log in to reply
If this question had been about something like a light-ray, with different reflection properties, then vectors would have been more useful.
I think - especially with the kind of problem that you come up with yourself (so, not a textbook problem, which fits a certain topic, or an olympiad problem, which you at least know has an answer), it's worth trying as many ideas as you can. Sometimes it doesn't go anywhere, sometimes it takes ages to think of the right approach, and then the problem's easy, but sometimes you find something new and interesting. It also helps a lot in developing an intuition for problem solving.
Log in to reply
Log in to reply
Log in to reply
I would like to add a problem Q4 which just came up to my mind. Take a look at it. (Since {a_n} was the length, in this case it is the area.)
Just saying en passant, approaching this geometrically I think this does not necessarily have to be a circle, instead maybe some arbitrary function that satisfies some conditions for this scenario. Dunno this will have any meaning tho
Log in to reply
Have you got any preliminary results or conjectures for your q4? I've done some numerical calculations, but nothing obvious is standing out. I'm not quite convinced there would be a "nice" expression for this in general.
Log in to reply
Log in to reply
Log in to reply
n=1∑∞an2≈2cπ
That's actually not what I'm finding; I seem to getas c→0.
Log in to reply
Log in to reply
n=2000) for a few small values of c:
I calculated the sum (up toThe calculations were based on the original recurrence you posted. They could be subject to rounding errors (I'm just using Excel). If you're getting different results could you post them for comparison?
If you check your recurrence, when c=0, you just get an=0 for all n, so the limit does make sense.
Log in to reply
Log in to reply
c≈0 (where before we were looking at c≈1). I've tried simply discarding terms in c2 from the recurrence but this doesn't quite work.
It was just a numerical observation based on playing with the data. It's interesting to now look atLog in to reply
4π, Thus the answer is 2π
Hey! I think I found a non rigorous proof for q5. Imagine a convex 2n regular polygon that is inscribed inside a circle with radius 1. Divide the polygon into two parts by the diameter. Draw triangles by drawing lines with slope of tan(n-1)π/(2n). The infinite sum of those triangles can be approximated to half the area of the divided polygon as n gets larger and larger. (infinite sum we are looking for q5) divided by 2 =Log in to reply
Log in to reply