Question But Not A Doubt 1

Given \(a_{1},a_{2},...,a_{n}\) satisfies, \[a_{1}^2+a_{2}^2+...+a_{m}^2=a_{m+1}^2+a_{m+2}^2+...+a_{n}^2\] find one such solution. Here, \(a_{1},a_{2},...,a_{n}\) are positive integers and are distinct

#Algebra

Note by Mohammed Imran
1 year, 2 months ago

No vote yet
1 vote

  Easy Math Editor

This discussion board is a place to discuss our Daily Challenges and the math and science related to those challenges. Explanations are more than just a solution — they should explain the steps and thinking strategies that you used to obtain the solution. Comments should further the discussion of math and science.

When posting on Brilliant:

  • Use the emojis to react to an explanation, whether you're congratulating a job well done , or just really confused .
  • Ask specific questions about the challenge or the steps in somebody's explanation. Well-posed questions can add a lot to the discussion, but posting "I don't understand!" doesn't help anyone.
  • Try to contribute something new to the discussion, whether it is an extension, generalization or other idea related to the challenge.
  • Stay on topic — we're all here to learn more about math and science, not to hear about your favorite get-rich-quick scheme or current world events.

MarkdownAppears as
*italics* or _italics_ italics
**bold** or __bold__ bold

- bulleted
- list

  • bulleted
  • list

1. numbered
2. list

  1. numbered
  2. list
Note: you must add a full line of space before and after lists for them to show up correctly
paragraph 1

paragraph 2

paragraph 1

paragraph 2

[example link](https://brilliant.org)example link
> This is a quote
This is a quote
    # I indented these lines
    # 4 spaces, and now they show
    # up as a code block.

    print "hello world"
# I indented these lines
# 4 spaces, and now they show
# up as a code block.

print "hello world"
MathAppears as
Remember to wrap math in \( ... \) or \[ ... \] to ensure proper formatting.
2 \times 3 2×3 2 \times 3
2^{34} 234 2^{34}
a_{i-1} ai1 a_{i-1}
\frac{2}{3} 23 \frac{2}{3}
\sqrt{2} 2 \sqrt{2}
\sum_{i=1}^3 i=13 \sum_{i=1}^3
\sin \theta sinθ \sin \theta
\boxed{123} 123 \boxed{123}

Comments

Find a suitable xx such that a12+a22=x2a_{1}^2+a_{2}^2=x^2 then the problem reduces to x2+a32+...+am2=am+12+...+an2x^2+a_{3}^2+...+a_{m}^2=a_{m+1}^2+...+a_{n}^2 then find a suitable yy such that am+12+am+22=y2a_{m+1}^2+a_{m+2}^2=y^2. So, doing this process repeatedly on both the L.H.S and the R.H.S until you reach a point where your equation will be of the form: a2+am2=an2a^2+a_{m}^2=a_{n}^2. Now, you know a1,...,am1,am+1,...,ana_{1},...,a_{m-1},a_{m+1},...,a_{n} because we have been substituting suitable values. So, we will have an equation like this: a2+am2=an2a^2+a_{m}^2=a_{n}^2. Now, we can easily solve this using pythagorean triples formula, because we know aa. Hence we have found a suitable solution.

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

Such that what?

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

Such that a12+a22=x2a_{1}^2+a_{2}^2=x^2

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Huh, that's actually a good idea. The only thing I can see here is that you haven't proved that it's always suitable to find xx all the time, thus we can't be completely sure about having infinite solutions.

So, here's my question: How can you prove that there are infinitely many solutions?

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Uhh, this is a pretty vague question I believe.

What is mm? What is nn? Must aia_i be an integer? Can it be zero? If it is then I can always make a trillion solutions just by saying aia_i = 0 for all ii ranging from 1 to nn.

Even if the numbers must be integers and positive, by letting nn divisible by 2, I can make infinitely many solutions. (How, I'll leave you to it.)

So, the takeaway? Restrictions!

P/S: Good ideas though, maybe you can capitalize on it by forcing aia_i to be all different; that way you can make a pretty fun problem.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Yeah. yes ai is an integer. No, the question is not to find the number of solutions, but one such solution. m,n can be any positive integers you want. I just want a general solution.

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

Even then your question is still too vague.

If 2n2|n then m=n2m=\frac{n}{2} and ai=a(m+i)a_i=a_{(m+i)}.

If n=2k+1n=2k+1 (with k>1k>1) then m=k+2m=k+2, ai=1a_i=1 with ii ranging from 11 to n1n-1 and an=4a_n=4.

If n=3n=3... I don't think I need to introduce to you Pythagorean triples, no?

Even as a bonus, if n=b2+c2n=b^2+c^2 then m=b2m=b^2 and ai=ca_i=c with ii ranging from 11 to mm and aj=ba_j=b with jj ranging from m+1m+1 to nn.

As long as nn is larger than 1... The sky is endless.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Sorry. All numbers are distinct

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

There we go. That should be enough constraints for now. Now we're getting to the fun part.

I guess you can agree with me that there exists infinitely many Pythagorean triples.

Now, what about Pythagorean quadruples? Read it carefully; your answer lies in it.

Assume now that you agree with me that there exists infinitely many Pythagorean quadruples. Since we have both infinite triples and quadruples, I guess we can find different numbers to just throw in.

For n<3n<3, obviously no.

For n=3n=3 and n=4n=4, sure, why not?

n=5n=5 is the tricky part. Back to the drawing table for now. (Hint: m=4m=4, and you're using 33 triples.)

Update: After doing extra research, I can see that there might exist infinitely many answers for n=5n=5, but the general formula is unknown to me. However, here is just a solution to n=5n=5 to satisfy my curiosity: 1952+1042+362+482=2292195^2+104^2+36^2+48^2=229^2.

Update 2: Let's call this triple x2+y2=z2x^2+y^2=z^2 for the sake of clarity. Now, you can see there are infinitely many solutions so that xx is a multiple of 5. Needless to say, xx can be partitioned to 22 other squares. (The reason, I'll leave you to finding out.) What about yy? This is a more difficult question, and I haven't had yet an idea to answer. However, you can brute force them to find a solution. And based on my knowledge, there should exist infinitely many solutions (hopefully).

For n>5n>5, you can just add in triples and quadruples until you get the necessary value of nn. Voilà.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

Uhh that is a very tough method

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Mohammed Imran Well, as I have mentioned above, it's almost impossible to point out a "general formula" here (considering the lack of definitive nn), but those are the clues to at least show that there are infinitely many answers.

Also, can I know why you find it tough? To me this is completely undestandable, actually.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

But there is a very easy method!!!

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

Hmm... I do not know, but for me I am heading towards finding all possible solutions, hence the added difficulty.

However, I still don't regard my method as too difficult. I would love to listen on how there's one general formula that actually holds true for all nn.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

There is no general formula, there are infinite solutions. So, maybe I should tell my method now!!!

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

Yes, I am more than willing to listen.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

ok sure!!!

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Just us pythagorean triplet formula

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

The idea of the formula is still insufficient. While there are infinitely many Pythagorean numbers, there are not infinitely many triples for a certain number. This is the dead end here.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

No I am sorry for partially giving a solution

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Mohammed Imran Don't be sorry. This is the learning experience. The more you learn the more you know.

Again, your solution does not even guarantee there would be a solution for mm in any nn, for the reasons already said above.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Steven Jim No. I have presented them at a conference

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

@Steven Jim So, please give me some time and I'll definitely post the proper solution

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Also, I am quite busy now

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

But I'll definitely post the proper solution for you after a while

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Mohammed Imran I am very grateful for that. Thanks.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Steven Jim Welcome!!!!!!!

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Good bye!!!

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

You posted a problem related to this right?

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

Yes I did. I figure that your idea is good, so I decided to post it and attribute you to it.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

Thank you very much!!!

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

That is just awesome!!!

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

You do have brilliant thinking skills on brilliant!!!

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

Thank you.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

Welcome!!!

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

maybye I will eplain you with an eample. Ok?!

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

Yeah sure

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Example: Find one 5-tuple (a,b,c,d,e)(a,b,c,d,e) such that, a2+b2+c2=d2+e2a^2+b^2+c^2=d^2+e^2

Solution: Find a suitable xx such that a2+b2=x2a^2+b^2=x^2. One such solution is a=3,b=4,x=5a=3, b=4, x=5. So, the problem reduces to 52+c2=d2+e25^2+c^2=d^2+e^2. Let e=13e=13 then we have c2d2=144c^2-d^2=144. So, (c+d)(cd)=144(c+d)(c-d)=144 which implies that c=37,d=3c=37, d=3. So, one solution set is (a,b,c,d,e)=(3,4,37,35,13)(a,b,c,d,e)=(3,4,37,35,13)

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

Well, try n=10n=10. Or n=100n=100. How can you ensure there would be a solution?

Generalize it and you'll see some problems.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

No. There are infinite pythagorean triples and quadruples. So, there will not be any problems

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Mohammed Imran If you do it the way I do, there would be zero problems.

The problem with your method is that you can't ensure that you will be able to find a suitable xx, and if you can prove that you can always find a suitable xx then your proof will be complete.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Steven Jim Your way is good, but my way is also similar

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Mohammed Imran Actually I hoped it was similar. You were a bit mistaken here.

Your method should be easier if there isn't a small problem, which I will restate again: how do you find a suitable xx? Is it always possible?

Focus on solving that problem, then your proof will be complete.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Steven Jim Yes it is always possible

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

@Steven Jim As I told earlier, I am not able to express my ideas perfectly

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Mohammed Imran You can state your ideas, if any. For me, there's little light in the end of the room.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

@Steven Jim But you don't need to use quadruples. Triples are more than enough

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

@Steven Jim This way is almost your way but the only difference is there are no quadruples involved

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

I am not able to explain my ideas through typing. Is there any other way to do?

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Mohammed Imran Don't fear. Learn to write. I learnt it the hard way; guess you could start too.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Steven Jim Ok sure

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Please let me know

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

I am sorry I made a mistake when writing the general solution. This solution is only properly correct

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

I was in a hurry to post that solution. So a small error occured.

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

@Mohammed Imran I will decide to move to this comment for the sake of clarity.

Again, I have still not understood how you would choose the suitable xx. State your ideas here, if you have any.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

What do you mean new comment?

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

State your ideas in a new comment here.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Steven Jim ok !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

We want one solution to the equation: a12+a22+...+am2=am+12+...+an2a_{1}^2+a_{2}^2+...+a_{m}^2=a_{m+1}^2+...+a_{n}^2.

Now, choose a suitable xx such that (a1,a2,x)(a_{1},a_{2},x) forms a Pythagorean triple. Now, the problem reduces to finding one solution to x2+a32+..+am2=am+12+...+an2x^2+a_{3}^2+..+a_{m}^2=a_{m+1}^2+...+a_{n}^2. Now, choose a suitable x1x_{1} such that (x,a3,x1)(x,a_{3},x_{1}) forms a Pythagorean triple. Keep doing this process on both sides until we land on an equation of the form a2+am2=b2+an2a^2+a_{m}^2=b^2+a_{n}^2. Now, since we have been substituting values for a1,a2,..,am1a_{1},a_{2},..,a_{m-1}, we know the values of a,ba,b. So, we can rewrite the equation as a2b2=an2am2a^2-b^2=a_{n}^2-a_{m}^2 and solve the equation by "Simon's Factorisation". So, we have found a solution set.

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

I think I might have just found a way to ensure you can always find a suitable xx.

Start with an arbitrary xx larger than 100100. We need to find a suitable x1x_1, as stated above. Now, do either of these steps:

a/ If x2x^2 is odd, partition it into two numbers, 11 and itself, then use the equation x2=(x1a3)(x1+a3)x^2=(x_1-a_3)(x_1+a_3) to attribute 11 to x1a3x_1-a_3 and x2x^2 to x1+a3x_1+a_3. Obviously, x1x_1 and a3a_3 are both larger than xx.

b/ If x2x^2 is even, divide by 44 until the number is odd. Then do as above. Again, obviously, x1x_1 and a3a_3 are both larger than xx (why, I will let you find out).

As the numbers increase over time, there can't be any repetition in numbers between variables. Thus, we can always find a suitable xx satisfying the equation.

Q.E.D :)

@Mohammed Imran There you go, got it done.

Note: You will still need to complete the details of this prove, but I can guarantee you that this is right.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

Yeah, that is what I was telling you that you can find suitable x

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Mohammed Imran You never stated it out carefully however, did you?

This is not trivial after all; you will still need to state the dynamics of your answer.

But yes, now that your answer is complete, you can proudly show it out to everyone.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Steven Jim Yes. But I thought that this is trivial

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Mohammed Imran This is not trivial at all. Especially this statement: "As the numbers increase over time, there can't be any repetition in numbers between variables." You can't ensure that repetition is impossible. Hence the non-triviality.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Steven Jim oh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

@Steven Jim Sorry for wasting your time on this!!!

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

@Steven Jim Thank you once again!!!!!!!!!!

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Log in to reply

@Mohammed Imran You're welcome.

Steven Jim - 1 year, 2 months ago

Thank you very much

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Do you want to check my other notes out???

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Steven Jim, do you have any comments??

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago

Steven Jim, if you are interested for general divisibility criteria of odd numbers, please have a look at my note: "A Question But Not A Doubt 2"

Mohammed Imran - 1 year, 2 months ago
×

Problem Loading...

Note Loading...

Set Loading...