⎩ ⎪ ⎨ ⎪ ⎧ x + y + z x 2 + y 2 + z 2 x 3 + y 3 + z 3 = 1 2 = 1 2 = 1 2
If x , y , and z satisfy the system of equations above, what is the value of x 4 + y 4 + z 4 ?
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Yes , we can , but it is much longer.
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I think it's better than 'look up newtons identities and calculate it'.
xyz can be found by solving (x+y+z)(x^2+y^2+z^2)=144
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Because x+y+z=12 -> (x+y+z)^2 = 12^2 = 144 = x^2+y^2+z^2+2xy+2xz+2yz -> 132 = 2(xy+xz+yz) -> xy+xz+yz = 66
how/why does xy+yz+xz=66?
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Substitute the givens into OPs first computation.
Because x+y+z=12 -> (x+y+z)^2 = 12^2 = 144 = x^2+y^2+z^2+2xy+2xz+2yz -> 132 = 2(xy+xz+yz) -> xy+xz+yz = 66
(xy)^2 + (xz)^2 + (yz)^2 = - 924 So we work with complex numbers
I solved nearly everything on my own, and made a calculation error in the very last line. This is frustrating
o can we find the values of x, y and z that satisfy the system of equations? Just curious how a sum of three numbers can equal the sum of their squares. I can see it with cubes as numbers can turn out negative, but squares? (0 and 1 are obviously not the solution here)
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X=2.467+5.005i, y=7.066, z=2.467-5.005i is one solution.
Thanks, Robert
[VISIBLE CONFUSION]
Let P n = x n + y n + z n , where n is a positive integer, S 1 = x + y + z = 1 2 , S 2 = x y + y z + z x , and S 3 = x y z . Given P 1 = P 2 = P 3 = 1 2 , we need to find P 4 = x 4 + y 4 + z 4 . By Newton's sums or Newton's identities, we have:
P 1 P 2 P 3 P 4 = S 1 = 1 2 = S 1 P 1 − 2 S 2 = 1 2 ( 1 2 ) − 2 S 2 = 1 2 = S 1 P 2 − S 2 P 1 + 3 S 3 = 1 2 ( 1 2 ) − 6 6 ( 1 2 ) + 3 S 3 = 1 2 = S 1 P 3 − S 2 P 2 + S 3 P 1 = 1 2 ( 1 2 ) − 6 6 ( 1 2 ) + 2 2 0 ( 1 2 ) = 1 9 9 2 ⟹ S 2 = 6 6 ⟹ S 3 = 2 2 0
so can we find the values of x, y and z that satisfy the system of equations? Just curious how a sum of three number can equal the sum of their squares to the same number. I can see it with cubes as numbers can turn out negative, but squares? (0 and 1 are obviously not the solution here)
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We are talking about complex numbers that is why it is possible.
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Thanks for clarifying, Chew. I tried to visualize it by plotting each one on a 3D graph and see if they intersect and it seems that they don't, at least not in the non-imaginary plane, i.e its roots are only complex numbers
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@Lyuboslav Karmidzhanov – Now you will never forget.
In the line for P3 you wrote ...66(12)+2S3=12 but it has to be 66(12)+3S3=12.
1 4 4 = ( x + y + z ) 2 = ( x 2 + y 2 + z 2 ) + 2 ( x y + x z + y z ) = 1 2 + 2 ( x y + x z + y z ) ⎭ ⎪ ⎬ ⎪ ⎫ ⇒ x y + x z + y z = 6 6
7 9 2 = ( x y + x z + y z ) ( x + y + z ) = 3 x y z + [ x 2 ( y + z ) + y 2 ( x + z ) + z 2 ( x + y ) ] = 3 x y z + [ x 2 ( 1 2 − x ) + y 2 ( 1 2 − y ) + z 2 ( 1 2 − z ) ] = 3 x y z + 1 3 2 ⎭ ⎪ ⎪ ⎪ ⎪ ⎬ ⎪ ⎪ ⎪ ⎪ ⎫ ⇒ x y z = 2 2 0
1 4 4 = ( x 3 + y 3 + z 3 ) ( x + y + z ) = ( x 4 + y 4 + z 4 ) + [ x y ( x 2 + y 2 ) + x z ( x 2 + z 2 ) + y z ( y 2 + z 2 ) ] = ( x 4 + y 4 + z 4 ) + [ x y ( 1 2 − z 2 ) + x z ( 1 2 − y 2 ) + y z ( 1 2 − x 2 ) ] = ( x 4 + y 4 + z 4 ) + 1 2 ( x y + x z + y z ) − x y z ( x + y + z ) = ( x 4 + y 4 + z 4 ) + 7 9 2 − 2 6 4 0 ⎭ ⎪ ⎪ ⎪ ⎪ ⎪ ⎪ ⎬ ⎪ ⎪ ⎪ ⎪ ⎪ ⎪ ⎫ ⇒ x 4 + y 4 + z 4 = 1 9 9 2
My mistake was in assuming the variables were positive. I did the same calculation to get xyz = 220 and then erroneously concluded that a sum of 12 made this impossible!
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This was what I did. I realised (x²+y²+z²)² would take a toll on my brain cells
In fact, the variables aren't even real numbers in this problem. If they were, we would have from x+y+z=12 that at least one of the numbers x,y and z is 4 or greater. By symmetry, we can assume x>=4 which means x^2>=16. Assuming y and z are real, we have x^2+y^2+z^2>=16 which contradicts the group of equations given. It only has complex solutions.
x 4 + y 4 + z 4 = − 3 2 ( x 3 + y 3 + z 3 ) ( x + y + z ) + 2 ( x 3 + y 3 + z 3 ) ( x + y + z ) − ( x 2 + y 2 + z 2 ) ( x + y + z ) 2 − 2 1 ( x 2 + y 2 + z 2 ) 2 + ( x 2 + y 2 + z 2 ) 2 + 6 1 ( x + y + z ) 4 = 1 9 9 2
Can you please explain how you got it??
My workings isn't as short or as elegant as those that had already posted, but this was how I worked it out.
Using Vieta's formulas, where x , y , z are the roots of a cubic polynomial:
∑ x = 1 2
( x + y + z ) 2 = x 2 + y 2 + z 2 + 2 ∑ x y ⟹ ∑ x y = 6 6
Let S n = x n + y n + z n :
Then S 3 − 1 2 S 2 + 6 6 S 1 − 3 c = 0 ⟹ c = 2 2 0
So the equation is w 3 − 1 2 w 2 + 6 6 w − 2 2 0 = 0
Now we can solve for S 4 = x 4 + y 4 + z 4 , by substituting the given equations in the question.
S 4 − 1 2 S 3 + 6 6 S 2 − 2 2 0 S 1 = 0
S 4 = 1 2 ( 1 2 ) − 6 6 ( 1 2 ) + 2 2 0 ( 1 2 ) = 1 9 9 2
Typo in last line, the 22 should be 220.
I also solved by this way. Good solution! :)
Yay Newton Sums! This is the approach I used.
1 4 4 = ( x + y + z ) 2 = x 2 + y 2 + z 2 + 2 ( x y + x z + y z ) = 1 2 + 2 ( x y + x z + y z ) ⟹ x y + x z + y z = 6 6 .
1 7 2 8 = ( x + y + z ) 3 = x 3 + y 3 + z 3 + 3 x 2 y + 3 x y 2 + 3 x 2 z + 6 x y z + 3 y 2 z + 3 x z 2 + 3 y z 2 = x 3 + y 3 + z 3 + 3 ( x + y + z ) ( x y + x z + y z ) − 3 x y z = 1 2 + 2 3 7 6 − 3 x y z = 2 3 8 8 − 3 x y z ⟹ x y z = 2 2 0 .
( 2 0 7 3 6 = ( x + y + z ) 4 = x 4 + y 4 + z 4 + ( 4 x 3 y + 4 x y 3 + 4 x 3 z + 4 y 3 z + 4 x z 3 + 4 y z 3 ) +
( 6 x 2 y 2 + 1 2 x 2 y z + 1 2 x y 2 z + 6 x 2 z 2 + 1 2 x y z 2 + 6 y 2 z 2 ) .
6 ( x y + x z + y z ) 2 = 6 x 2 y 2 + 1 2 x 2 y z + 1 2 x y 2 z + 6 x 2 z 2 + 1 2 x y z 2 + 6 y 2 z 2 .
and,
4 ( x 2 + y 2 + z 2 ) ( x y + x z + y z ) = 4 x 3 y + 4 x y 3 + 4 x 3 z + 4 y 3 z + 4 x z 3 + 4 y z 3 + 4 ( x y z ) ( x + y + z ) ⟹
4 x 3 y + 4 x y 3 + 4 x 3 z + 4 y 3 z + 4 x z 3 + 4 y z 3 = 4 ( x 2 + y 2 + z 2 ) ( x y + x z + y z ) − 4 ( x y z ) ( x + y + z )
⟹ ( x + y + z ) 4 = 2 0 7 3 6 = x 4 + y 4 + z 4 + 6 ( 6 6 2 ) + 4 ( 1 2 ) ( 6 6 ) − 4 ( 2 2 0 ) ( 1 2 ) = x 4 + y 4 + z 4 + 1 8 7 4 4 ⟹
x 4 + y 4 + z 4 = 1 9 9 2 .
If ( P i = x i + y i + z i )
According to Newton's identities ,
P 4 = 3 4 P 3 P 1 − P 2 P 1 2 + 6 P 1 4 + 2 P 2 2
so we get P 4 = 1 9 9 2 .
Can we find x,y and z?
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If you meant whether we can find the individual values of x , y , z satisfying this system of equations, then yes!
By Vieta's formula , x , y , z satisfy the equation w 3 − 1 2 w 2 + 6 6 w − 2 2 0 = 0 . Can you proceed from here?
Whats newton’s identities?
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A good way to find the sum of the same power of the polynomian roots , you should read
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Ok thanks! Also what grade is this problem?
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@Golden Boy – I learned it by myself, it will take less than 30 minutes to understand it and why it is right
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@ابراهيم فقرا – Ok thanks! If you were my age, I would’ve immediately befriended you but you’re 6 years older than me lol! Sorry I’m digressing! Thanks!
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@Golden Boy – Haha the age is just a number , welcome my new friend lol😜
Your solution is slightly incorrect. If you note P 1 P 2 2 is of degree 5 and the rest of the components are of degree 4. It should also be a 2 P 1 2 P 2
Letting − b = x + y + z , c = x y + y z + z x , − d = x y z
From Newton's identities we have: P 4 = − b P 3 − c P 2 − d P 1 We can see that b = − P 1 , c = 2 P 1 2 − P 2 , d = − 6 P 1 3 + 2 P 3 − 3 P 1 P 2
So P 4 = P 1 P 3 − ( 2 P 1 2 − P 2 ) P 2 + ( 6 P 1 3 + 2 P 3 − 3 P 1 P 2 ) P 1
P 4 = 3 4 P 1 P 3 − P 1 2 P 2 + 6 P 1 4 + 2 P 2 2
x + y + z = 12 is the equation of a plane that gets no closer to the origin than (4,4,4).
x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = 12 is the equation of a sphere centered at the origin with radius 2*sqrt(3) ~ 3.46. How do these intersect?
Here a question: If x+y+z =12 and the sum of their square x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = 12 . Then why couldn't I replace the value x,y,z by x^2,y^2,z^2 to get x^4 + y^4 +z^4 = 12?
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Just because x + y + z = 1 2 and x 2 + y 2 + z 2 = 1 2 are true, that doesn't mean that x = x 2 , y = y 2 , z = z 2 must be true.
If that's the case, the values of x , y , z must take values 0 and/or 1 only. But that means that none of the 3 given equations can be satisfied.
If x + y + z = k = x 2 + y 2 + z 2 this doesn't mean thay x = x 2 , y = y 2 , z = z 2
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For example : x = i , y = − 1 , z = 1 + i , 》》 x 2 + y 2 + z 2 = x + y + z = 2 i ,but , x 2 = − 1 where x = i ,...
what are x y and z?
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Two of them are complex , I don't remember them , you can find them by solving the equation , z 3 − 1 2 z 2 + 6 6 z − 2 2 0 = 0
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Yeah so I have no clue what this means. Any chance you could explain it?
Approximately x=7.066, y=2.467-5.005i, z=2.467+5.005i, interchangeable obviously.
Can there be three numbers whose sum, sum of squares, sum of cubes, sum of exponential 4, sum of exponential 5,.... be equal and not equal to 0 or 1?
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click here , read my comment . for each of these values of k the only possible values of a , b , c are combinations of 0 , 1 , you can find the the cubic polynomial using Newton's identities
This is very odd because this implies x+y+z = x^2+y^2+z^2 = x^3+y^3+z^3
x^2+x^3+y^2+y^3+z^2+z^3 = 24 = 2(x^2+y^2+z^2) x^2(x+1) + y^2(y+1) + z^2(z+1) = 2x^2+2y^2+2z^2 which implies: x+1 = 2 y+1 = 2 z+1 = 2 so all of them are equal to 1. But they're obviously not all equal to 1. Whatever they are seem to break associative and communative properties. What gives?
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Just because 2 x 2 + 2 y 2 + 2 z 2 = ( x + 1 ) x 2 + ( y + 1 ) y 2 + ( z + 1 ) z 2 ) , this doesn't mean that x + 1 = 2 , y + 1 = 2 , z + 1 = 2
For example , take x = y = z = 0
Is there any formula for nth power also
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You can read Newton's identities , this will help you a lot
It is more instructive to discover the relevant relations yourself. Here is how I solved it, which is a bit more direct. ( x + y + z ) 2 = x 2 + y + z 2 + 2 ( x y + y z + z x ) implies x y + y z + z x = ( 1 2 2 − 1 2 ) / 2 = 6 6 . And
We can find the solution of x^4 + y^4 + z^4 by the following steps: (x+y+z)^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 + 2(xy+xz+yz), so that (xy+xz+yz) = 66, (x+y+z)^3 = x^3 + y^3 + z^3 + 3(xy+xz+yz) (x+y+z) – 3xyx , then we find :xyz = 220, (xy+xz+yz)^2 = (xy)^2 + (xz)^2 + (yz)^2 + 2xyz(x+y+z), then we can find (xy)^2 + (xz)^2 + (yz)^2 = - 924, (x^2 + y^2 + z^2)^2 = x^4 + y^4 + z^4 + 2((xy)^2 + (xz)^2 + (yz)^2), finally we can find x^4 + y^4 + z^4 = 1992