12,12,12,will this continue?

Algebra Level 3

{ x + y + z = 12 x 2 + y 2 + z 2 = 12 x 3 + y 3 + z 3 = 12 \begin{cases} \begin{aligned} x\ + \ y\ +\ z \ & =12 \\ x^2+y^2+z^2 & =12 \\ x^3+y^3+z^3 & =12 \end{aligned} \end{cases}

If x , y , x,y, and z z satisfy the system of equations above, what is the value of x 4 + y 4 + z 4 ? x^4+y^4+z^4?


The answer is 1992.

This section requires Javascript.
You are seeing this because something didn't load right. We suggest you, (a) try refreshing the page, (b) enabling javascript if it is disabled on your browser and, finally, (c) loading the non-javascript version of this page . We're sorry about the hassle.

7 solutions

Rab Gani
Dec 12, 2018

We can find the solution of x^4 + y^4 + z^4 by the following steps: (x+y+z)^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 + 2(xy+xz+yz), so that (xy+xz+yz) = 66, (x+y+z)^3 = x^3 + y^3 + z^3 + 3(xy+xz+yz) (x+y+z) – 3xyx , then we find :xyz = 220, (xy+xz+yz)^2 = (xy)^2 + (xz)^2 + (yz)^2 + 2xyz(x+y+z), then we can find (xy)^2 + (xz)^2 + (yz)^2 = - 924, (x^2 + y^2 + z^2)^2 = x^4 + y^4 + z^4 + 2((xy)^2 + (xz)^2 + (yz)^2), finally we can find x^4 + y^4 + z^4 = 1992

Yes , we can , but it is much longer.

ابراهيم فقرا - 2 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

I think it's better than 'look up newtons identities and calculate it'.

Konrad Knatz - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

If you think it is better do it

ابراهيم فقرا - 2 years, 5 months ago

xyz can be found by solving (x+y+z)(x^2+y^2+z^2)=144

Akshay D Naik - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

Because x+y+z=12 -> (x+y+z)^2 = 12^2 = 144 = x^2+y^2+z^2+2xy+2xz+2yz -> 132 = 2(xy+xz+yz) -> xy+xz+yz = 66

Bolan Moonward - 2 years, 4 months ago

how/why does xy+yz+xz=66?

spim ransley - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

Substitute the givens into OPs first computation.

Patrick Delos Reyes - 2 years, 5 months ago

Because x+y+z=12 -> (x+y+z)^2 = 12^2 = 144 = x^2+y^2+z^2+2xy+2xz+2yz -> 132 = 2(xy+xz+yz) -> xy+xz+yz = 66

Bolan Moonward - 2 years, 4 months ago

(xy)^2 + (xz)^2 + (yz)^2 = - 924 So we work with complex numbers

Jordan Jordanov - 2 years, 5 months ago

I solved nearly everything on my own, and made a calculation error in the very last line. This is frustrating

Chris Jacob - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

I couldn't solve the problem 😑

Spriha Basir - 2 years, 4 months ago

o can we find the values of x, y and z that satisfy the system of equations? Just curious how a sum of three numbers can equal the sum of their squares. I can see it with cubes as numbers can turn out negative, but squares? (0 and 1 are obviously not the solution here)

Lyuboslav Karmidzhanov - 2 years, 4 months ago

Log in to reply

X=2.467+5.005i, y=7.066, z=2.467-5.005i is one solution.

Robert Gallenberger - 2 years, 4 months ago

Thanks, Robert

Lyuboslav Karmidzhanov - 2 years, 4 months ago

[VISIBLE CONFUSION]

Ketan Sawmy - 1 year, 10 months ago
Chew-Seong Cheong
Dec 13, 2018

Let P n = x n + y n + z n P_n = x^n + y^n+z^n , where n n is a positive integer, S 1 = x + y + z = 12 S_1=x+y+z=12 , S 2 = x y + y z + z x S_2 = xy + yz+zx , and S 3 = x y z S_3 = xyz . Given P 1 = P 2 = P 3 = 12 P_1=P_2=P_3=12 , we need to find P 4 = x 4 + y 4 + z 4 P_4 = x^4+y^4+z^4 . By Newton's sums or Newton's identities, we have:

P 1 = S 1 = 12 P 2 = S 1 P 1 2 S 2 = 12 ( 12 ) 2 S 2 = 12 S 2 = 66 P 3 = S 1 P 2 S 2 P 1 + 3 S 3 = 12 ( 12 ) 66 ( 12 ) + 3 S 3 = 12 S 3 = 220 P 4 = S 1 P 3 S 2 P 2 + S 3 P 1 = 12 ( 12 ) 66 ( 12 ) + 220 ( 12 ) = 1992 \begin{aligned} P_1 & = S_1 = 12 \\ P_2 & = S_1P_1 - 2S_2 = 12(12) -2S_2 = 12 & \small \color{#3D99F6} \implies S_2 = 66 \\ P_3 & = S_1P_2 - S_2P_1 + 3S_3 = 12(12) -66(12) + 3S_3 = 12 & \small \color{#3D99F6} \implies S_3 = 220 \\ P_4 & = S_1P_3 - S_2P_2 + S_3P_1 = 12(12) -66(12) + 220(12) = \boxed{1992} \end{aligned}

so can we find the values of x, y and z that satisfy the system of equations? Just curious how a sum of three number can equal the sum of their squares to the same number. I can see it with cubes as numbers can turn out negative, but squares? (0 and 1 are obviously not the solution here)

Lyuboslav Karmidzhanov - 2 years, 4 months ago

Log in to reply

We are talking about complex numbers that is why it is possible.

Chew-Seong Cheong - 2 years, 4 months ago

Log in to reply

Thanks for clarifying, Chew. I tried to visualize it by plotting each one on a 3D graph and see if they intersect and it seems that they don't, at least not in the non-imaginary plane, i.e its roots are only complex numbers

Lyuboslav Karmidzhanov - 2 years, 4 months ago

Log in to reply

@Lyuboslav Karmidzhanov Now you will never forget.

Chew-Seong Cheong - 2 years, 4 months ago

In the line for P3 you wrote ...66(12)+2S3=12 but it has to be 66(12)+3S3=12.

byteridr . - 2 years, 1 month ago

Log in to reply

Thanks, I have amended it

Chew-Seong Cheong - 2 years, 1 month ago
Zero Chen
Dec 19, 2018

144 = ( x + y + z ) 2 = ( x 2 + y 2 + z 2 ) + 2 ( x y + x z + y z ) = 12 + 2 ( x y + x z + y z ) } x y + x z + y z = 66 \left. \begin{aligned} 144&=(x+y+z)^2\\ &=(x^2+y^2+z^2)+2(xy+xz+yz)\\ &=12+2(xy+xz+yz) \end{aligned} \right\} \Rightarrow xy+xz+yz=66\\

792 = ( x y + x z + y z ) ( x + y + z ) = 3 x y z + [ x 2 ( y + z ) + y 2 ( x + z ) + z 2 ( x + y ) ] = 3 x y z + [ x 2 ( 12 x ) + y 2 ( 12 y ) + z 2 ( 12 z ) ] = 3 x y z + 132 } x y z = 220 \left. \begin{aligned} 792&=(xy+xz+yz)(x+y+z)\\ &=3xyz+[x^2(y+z)+y^2(x+z)+z^2(x+y)]\\ &=3xyz+[x^2(12-x)+y^2(12-y)+z^2(12-z)]\\ &=3xyz+132 \end{aligned} \right\} \Rightarrow xyz=220\\

144 = ( x 3 + y 3 + z 3 ) ( x + y + z ) = ( x 4 + y 4 + z 4 ) + [ x y ( x 2 + y 2 ) + x z ( x 2 + z 2 ) + y z ( y 2 + z 2 ) ] = ( x 4 + y 4 + z 4 ) + [ x y ( 12 z 2 ) + x z ( 12 y 2 ) + y z ( 12 x 2 ) ] = ( x 4 + y 4 + z 4 ) + 12 ( x y + x z + y z ) x y z ( x + y + z ) = ( x 4 + y 4 + z 4 ) + 792 2640 } x 4 + y 4 + z 4 = 1992 \left. \begin{aligned} 144&=(x^3+y^3+z^3)(x+y+z)\\ &=(x^4+y^4+z^4)+[xy(x^2+y^2)+xz(x^2+z^2)+yz(y^2+z^2)]\\ &=(x^4+y^4+z^4)+[xy(12-z^2)+xz(12-y^2)+yz(12-x^2)]\\ &=(x^4+y^4+z^4)+12(xy+xz+yz)-xyz(x+y+z)\\ &=(x^4+y^4+z^4)+792-2640 \end{aligned} \right\} \Rightarrow x^4+y^4+z^4=1992\\

My mistake was in assuming the variables were positive. I did the same calculation to get xyz = 220 and then erroneously concluded that a sum of 12 made this impossible!

Christine Shannon - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

This was what I did. I realised (x²+y²+z²)² would take a toll on my brain cells

Shree Ganesh - 2 years, 2 months ago

In fact, the variables aren't even real numbers in this problem. If they were, we would have from x+y+z=12 that at least one of the numbers x,y and z is 4 or greater. By symmetry, we can assume x>=4 which means x^2>=16. Assuming y and z are real, we have x^2+y^2+z^2>=16 which contradicts the group of equations given. It only has complex solutions.

Tarmo Taipale - 2 years, 5 months ago

x 4 + y 4 + z 4 = 2 3 ( x 3 + y 3 + z 3 ) ( x + y + z ) + 2 ( x 3 + y 3 + z 3 ) ( x + y + z ) ( x 2 + y 2 + z 2 ) ( x + y + z ) 2 1 2 ( x 2 + y 2 + z 2 ) 2 + ( x 2 + y 2 + z 2 ) 2 + 1 6 ( x + y + z ) 4 = 1992 x^4+y^4+z^4=-\frac{2}{3} \left(x^3+y^3+z^3\right) (x+y+z)+2 \left(x^3+y^3+z^3\right) (x+y+z)-\left(x^2+y^2+z^2\right) (x+y+z)^2-\frac{1}{2} \left(x^2+y^2+z^2\right)^2+\left(x^2+y^2+z^2\right)^2+\frac {1}{6} (x+y+z)^4=1992

Can you please explain how you got it??

Eayan Biswas - 1 year, 10 months ago
Johanan Paul
Dec 17, 2018

My workings isn't as short or as elegant as those that had already posted, but this was how I worked it out.

Using Vieta's formulas, where x , y , z x, y, z are the roots of a cubic polynomial:

x = 12 \sum x = 12

( x + y + z ) 2 = x 2 + y 2 + z 2 + 2 x y x y = 66 (x + y +z)^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 + 2\sum xy \implies \sum xy = 66

Let S n = x n + y n + z n S_n = x^n + y^n + z^n :

Then S 3 12 S 2 + 66 S 1 3 c = 0 c = 220 S_3 - 12S_2+66S_1 - 3c = 0 \implies c = 220

So the equation is w 3 12 w 2 + 66 w 220 = 0 w^3 - 12w^2 + 66w - 220 = 0

Now we can solve for S 4 = x 4 + y 4 + z 4 S_4 = x^4 + y^4 + z^4 , by substituting the given equations in the question.

S 4 12 S 3 + 66 S 2 220 S 1 = 0 S_4 - 12S_3 + 66S_2 - 220S_1 = 0

S 4 = 12 ( 12 ) 66 ( 12 ) + 220 ( 12 ) = 1992 S_4 = 12(12) - 66(12) + 220(12) = 1992

Typo in last line, the 22 should be 220.

Costumed Creeper - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

Thanks, I have corrected it.

Johanan Paul - 2 years, 5 months ago

I also solved by this way. Good solution! :)

Dong kwan Yoo - 2 years, 5 months ago

Yay Newton Sums! This is the approach I used.

Nathan Richardson - 1 year, 11 months ago
Rocco Dalto
Dec 21, 2018

144 = ( x + y + z ) 2 = x 2 + y 2 + z 2 + 2 ( x y + x z + y z ) = 12 + 2 ( x y + x z + y z ) x y + x z + y z = 66 144 = (x + y + z)^2 = x^2 + y^2 + z^2 + 2(xy + xz + yz) = 12 + 2(xy + xz + yz) \implies \boxed{xy + xz + yz = 66} .

1728 = ( x + y + z ) 3 = x 3 + y 3 + z 3 + 3 x 2 y + 3 x y 2 + 3 x 2 z + 6 x y z + 3 y 2 z + 3 x z 2 + 3 y z 2 = 1728 = (x + y + z)^3 = x^3 + y^3 + z^3 + 3x^2y + 3xy^2 + 3x^2z + 6xyz + 3y^2z + 3xz^2 + 3yz^2 = x 3 + y 3 + z 3 + 3 ( x + y + z ) ( x y + x z + y z ) 3 x y z = 12 + 2376 3 x y z = 2388 3 x y z x y z = 220 x^3 + y^3 + z^3 + 3(x + y + z)(xy + xz + yz) - 3xyz = 12 + 2376 - 3xyz = 2388 - 3xyz \implies \boxed{xyz = 220} .

( 20736 = ( x + y + z ) 4 = x 4 + y 4 + z 4 + ( 4 x 3 y + 4 x y 3 + 4 x 3 z + 4 y 3 z + 4 x z 3 + 4 y z 3 ) + (20736 = (x + y + z)^4 = x^4 + y^4 + z^4 + (4x^3y + 4xy^3 + 4x^3z + 4y^3z + 4xz^3 + 4yz^3) +

( 6 x 2 y 2 + 12 x 2 y z + 12 x y 2 z + 6 x 2 z 2 + 12 x y z 2 + 6 y 2 z 2 ) (6x^2y^2 + 12x^2yz + 12xy^2z + 6x^2z^2 + 12xyz^2 + 6y^2z^2) .

6 ( x y + x z + y z ) 2 = 6 x 2 y 2 + 12 x 2 y z + 12 x y 2 z + 6 x 2 z 2 + 12 x y z 2 + 6 y 2 z 2 6(xy + xz + yz)^2 =6x^2y^2 + 12x^2yz + 12xy^2z + 6x^2z^2 + 12xyz^2 + 6y^2z^2 .

and,

4 ( x 2 + y 2 + z 2 ) ( x y + x z + y z ) = 4 x 3 y + 4 x y 3 + 4 x 3 z + 4 y 3 z + 4 x z 3 + 4 y z 3 + 4 ( x y z ) ( x + y + z ) 4(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)(xy + xz + yz) = 4x^3y + 4xy^3 + 4x^3z + 4y^3z + 4xz^3 + 4yz^3 + 4(xyz)(x + y + z) \implies

4 x 3 y + 4 x y 3 + 4 x 3 z + 4 y 3 z + 4 x z 3 + 4 y z 3 = 4 ( x 2 + y 2 + z 2 ) ( x y + x z + y z ) 4 ( x y z ) ( x + y + z ) 4x^3y + 4xy^3 + 4x^3z + 4y^3z + 4xz^3 + 4yz^3 = 4(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)(xy + xz + yz) - 4(xyz)(x + y + z)

( x + y + z ) 4 = 20736 = x 4 + y 4 + z 4 + 6 ( 6 6 2 ) + 4 ( 12 ) ( 66 ) 4 ( 220 ) ( 12 ) = x 4 + y 4 + z 4 + 18744 \implies (x + y + z)^4 = 20736 = x^4 + y^4 + z^4 + 6(66^2) + 4(12)(66) - 4(220)(12) = x^4 + y^4 + z^4 + 18744 \implies

x 4 + y 4 + z 4 = 1992 \boxed{x^4 + y^4 + z^4 = 1992} .

If ( P i = x i + y i + z i ) (P_i=x^i+y^i+z^i)

According to Newton's identities ,

P 4 = 4 P 3 P 1 3 P 2 P 1 2 + P 1 4 6 + P 2 2 2 P_4=\frac{4P_3P_1}{3}-P_2{P_1}^2+\frac{{P_1}^4}{6}+\frac{{P_2}^2}{2}

so we get P 4 = 1992. P_4=1992.

Can we find x,y and z?

Mr. India - 2 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

If you meant whether we can find the individual values of x , y , z x,y,z satisfying this system of equations, then yes!

By Vieta's formula , x , y , z x,y,z satisfy the equation w 3 12 w 2 + 66 w 220 = 0 w^3 - 12w^2 + 66w - 220 = 0 . Can you proceed from here?

Pi Han Goh - 2 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

Yes, I can. Thank you!!

Mr. India - 2 years, 6 months ago

Whats newton’s identities?

Golden Boy - 2 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

A good way to find the sum of the same power of the polynomian roots , you should read

ابراهيم فقرا - 2 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

Ok thanks! Also what grade is this problem?

Golden Boy - 2 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

@Golden Boy I learned it by myself, it will take less than 30 minutes to understand it and why it is right

ابراهيم فقرا - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

@ابراهيم فقرا Ok thanks! If you were my age, I would’ve immediately befriended you but you’re 6 years older than me lol! Sorry I’m digressing! Thanks!

Golden Boy - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

@Golden Boy Haha the age is just a number , welcome my new friend lol😜

ابراهيم فقرا - 2 years, 5 months ago

Your solution is slightly incorrect. If you note P 1 P 2 2 P_1 P_2^2 is of degree 5 and the rest of the components are of degree 4. It should also be a P 1 2 P 2 2 \frac{P_1^2 P_2}{2}


Letting b = x + y + z , c = x y + y z + z x , d = x y z -b=x+y+z, c=xy+yz+zx, -d=xyz

From Newton's identities we have: P 4 = b P 3 c P 2 d P 1 P_4 = -b P_3 -c P_2 -d P_1 We can see that b = P 1 , c = P 1 2 P 2 2 , d = P 1 3 + 2 P 3 3 P 1 P 2 6 b = -P_1, c = \frac{P_1^2-P_2}{2}, d = -\frac{P_1^3+2P_3-3P_1 P_2}{6}

So P 4 = P 1 P 3 ( P 1 2 P 2 2 ) P 2 + ( P 1 3 + 2 P 3 3 P 1 P 2 6 ) P 1 P_4 = P_1 P_3 - (\frac{P_1^2-P_2}{2}) P_2 +(\frac{P_1^3+2P_3-3P_1 P_2}{6})P_1

P 4 = 4 P 1 P 3 3 P 1 2 P 2 + P 1 4 6 + P 2 2 2 P_4 = \frac{4P_1 P_3}{3} - P_1^2 P_2 +\frac{P_1^4}{6}+\frac{P_2^2}{2}

Alex Burgess - 2 years, 6 months ago

Log in to reply

Thanks dear

ابراهيم فقرا - 2 years, 6 months ago

x + y + z = 12 is the equation of a plane that gets no closer to the origin than (4,4,4).

x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = 12 is the equation of a sphere centered at the origin with radius 2*sqrt(3) ~ 3.46. How do these intersect?

Sean McCloskey - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

x , y , z x,y,z can be complex dear

ابراهيم فقرا - 2 years, 5 months ago

Here a question: If x+y+z =12 and the sum of their square x^2 + y^2 + z^2 = 12 . Then why couldn't I replace the value x,y,z by x^2,y^2,z^2 to get x^4 + y^4 +z^4 = 12?

Thanh Thanh - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

Just because x + y + z = 12 x+y+z=12 and x 2 + y 2 + z 2 = 12 x^2 + y^2 + z^2=12 are true, that doesn't mean that x = x 2 , y = y 2 , z = z 2 x=x^2, y=y^2, z=z^2 must be true.

If that's the case, the values of x , y , z x,y,z must take values 0 and/or 1 only. But that means that none of the 3 given equations can be satisfied.

Pi Han Goh - 2 years, 5 months ago

If x + y + z = k = x 2 + y 2 + z 2 x+y+z=k=x^2+y^2+z^2 this doesn't mean thay x = x 2 , y = y 2 , z = z 2 x=x^2,y=y^2,z=z^2

ابراهيم فقرا - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

For example : x = i , y = 1 , z = 1 + i x=i,y=-1,z=1+i , 》》 x 2 + y 2 + z 2 = x + y + z = 2 i x^2+y^2+z^2=x+y+z=2i ,but , x 2 = 1 x^2=-1 where x = i x=i ,...

ابراهيم فقرا - 2 years, 5 months ago

what are x y and z?

Julian Pollack - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

Two of them are complex , I don't remember them , you can find them by solving the equation , z 3 12 z 2 + 66 z 220 = 0 z^3-12z^2+66z-220=0

ابراهيم فقرا - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

Yeah so I have no clue what this means. Any chance you could explain it?

Julian Pollack - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

@Julian Pollack Sorry dear

ابراهيم فقرا - 2 years, 5 months ago

Approximately x=7.066, y=2.467-5.005i, z=2.467+5.005i, interchangeable obviously.

Russell Arnott - 2 years, 5 months ago

Can there be three numbers whose sum, sum of squares, sum of cubes, sum of exponential 4, sum of exponential 5,.... be equal and not equal to 0 or 1?

Shashwat Trivedi - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

click here , read my comment . for each of these values of k k the only possible values of a , b , c a,b,c are combinations of 0 , 1 0,1 , you can find the the cubic polynomial using Newton's identities

ابراهيم فقرا - 2 years, 5 months ago

This is very odd because this implies x+y+z = x^2+y^2+z^2 = x^3+y^3+z^3

x^2+x^3+y^2+y^3+z^2+z^3 = 24 = 2(x^2+y^2+z^2) x^2(x+1) + y^2(y+1) + z^2(z+1) = 2x^2+2y^2+2z^2 which implies: x+1 = 2 y+1 = 2 z+1 = 2 so all of them are equal to 1. But they're obviously not all equal to 1. Whatever they are seem to break associative and communative properties. What gives?

Tre Baker - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

Just because 2 x 2 + 2 y 2 + 2 z 2 = ( x + 1 ) x 2 + ( y + 1 ) y 2 + ( z + 1 ) z 2 ) 2x^2+2y^2+2z^2=(x+1)x^2+(y+1)y^2+(z+1)z^2) , this doesn't mean that x + 1 = 2 , y + 1 = 2 , z + 1 = 2 x+1=2,y+1=2,z+1=2

For example , take x = y = z = 0 x=y=z=0

ابراهيم فقرا - 2 years, 5 months ago

Is there any formula for nth power also

Shailendra Singh Jakhar - 2 years, 5 months ago

Log in to reply

You can read Newton's identities , this will help you a lot

ابراهيم فقرا - 2 years, 5 months ago

It is more instructive to discover the relevant relations yourself. Here is how I solved it, which is a bit more direct. ( x + y + z ) 2 = x 2 + y + z 2 + 2 ( x y + y z + z x ) (x+y+z)^2 = x^2+y^+z^2+2(xy+yz+zx) implies x y + y z + z x = ( 1 2 2 12 ) / 2 = 66 xy+yz+zx=(12^2-12)/2=66 . And ( x + y + z ) 4 = 4 ( x 3 + y