Simple pendulum (with a twist) 2

A pendulum, which consists of a hollow cylinder filled with water, is set to swing. If the cylinder is punctured at the bottom so that water starts to flow out, what will happen to the period of the pendulum over time?

First decrease then increase First increase then decrease Will increase Will decrease Will remain the same

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6 solutions

Relevant wiki: Pendulums

The mass does not affect the period, but the position of the center of mass does.

  • When the cylinder is filled, the COM lies in the middle of the cylinder.

  • When the cylinder is half-full, the COM lies slightly more than one-quarter above the bottom.

  • When the cylinder is empty, the COM lies in the middle of the cylinder.

Thus the effective length of the pendulum is greater between the initial and final situations, making the period temporarily longer.

Specifically, if t = 1 t = 1 is the initial situation and t = 0 t = 0 is the situation where the cylinder is empty; m m is the mass of the cylinder and M M is the mass of the water; h h is the height of the cylinder; and \ell is the distance from the fulcrum to the end of the cylinder; then the effective length of the pendulum is h 2 m + M t 2 m + M t . \ell - \frac h2 \frac{m + Mt^2}{m + Mt}. The maximum value occurs when t = ( 1 + M m 1 ) m M . t = \left(\sqrt{1 + \frac{M}{m}}-1\right)\ \frac{m}{M}. In the limit M < < m M << m , this reduces to t 1 2 t \approx \tfrac12 . In the limit M > > m M >> m , it becomes t m / M t \approx \sqrt{m/M} .

Wow, this was an amazing problem. Thank you for sharing this solution.

James Wilson - 3 years, 8 months ago

Thanks for this good explanation but should not the Mht^2 term contains a 1/2 factor in it as in 1 2 m h + 1 2 M h t 2 m + M t . \ell -\frac{\tfrac12mh+\tfrac12Mht^2}{m+Mt}.

Humam AL Sebai - 3 years, 8 months ago

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Yes! Thanks for pointing that out. I will correct it immedately.

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 8 months ago

How did you find the rate at which water leaves the cylinder?

Pranshu Gaba - 3 years, 8 months ago

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I did not find the rate at which the water leaves the cylinder. I simply used the variable t t to describe how full the cylinder is.

Naturally, it only makes sense to speak about a "period" in this context if the cylinder empties out relatively slowly. If the cylinder empties out quickly, other effects must be accounted for, such as the propulsion due to water being forced out.

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 8 months ago

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Oh, alright then. It makes sense as the fraction of cylinder filled with water. I thought that t t denoted time.

Pranshu Gaba - 3 years, 8 months ago

I guessed and checked.How does this work? I would rate this problem a 10 because I didn't even get it.

Lucia Tiberio - 3 years, 8 months ago

If we assume the cylinder has mass, can we not assume the connecting rod or cable has mass? Does not the center of mass for the system move up as the water drains, or does it depend on the mass and length of the rod. If the linear density of the rod is equivalent to the linear density of the water in the cylinder, then the center of mass clearly will move up the rod as the water drains. If the density of the rod is relative small, then the center of mass will initially move down. We need more information to determine the answer. That said, based on the assumptions made, I like the approach given by Arjen.

Brad Morin - 3 years, 7 months ago

Does water have enough surface tension or viscosity to have a small chain like action at the end of the can? And what about speed gain as mass is lost through momentum? Are these effects both too marginal or can they be calculated too?

Danny Robinson - 3 years, 5 months ago

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I don't know about the surface tension or viscosity, but the mass that is lost has velocity, so it takes away momentum with it. This means that it does not cause the speed of the pendulum to increase.

Pranshu Gaba - 3 years, 5 months ago

This problem should clearly not be under the "Basic" category. The answer choices alone show that.

Dennis Rodman - 2 years, 4 months ago

Could you explain in more detail?

Jose Jimenez - 3 years, 8 months ago

Never said to ignore the mass of the beam connecting the can to the pivot point.

cal Kruse - 3 years, 8 months ago

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That doesn't matter much. It can be accounted for by increasing the cylinder's mass M M .

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 8 months ago

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This whole answer is wrong, including the "increasing the cylinder's mass" work-around. How can you have an enormously massive cylinder filled with water suspended on a MASSLESS rod? There is no doubt at all that the Center Of Mass DOES move up towards the pivot point!

gene koveski - 3 years, 7 months ago

Does momentum play a part? As mass decreases if momentum is conserved then velocity would increase, which would decrease the period. Does anyone know if this is try at all?

Hugh Currah - 3 years, 8 months ago

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The momentum of an object is conserved only if the net force on it is zero. Here, the force on the cylinder changes with time (both in magnitude and direction), so its momentum is not conserved.

Also, the fact that the velocity of a pendulum increases is not sufficient to conclude that its time period decreases. We also need to know how its amplitude changes. It is possible that the velocity and the amplitude both increase, leaving the period constant.

Pranshu Gaba - 3 years, 8 months ago

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The period of a pendulum is largely independent of its amplitude. Only when the amplitude is really large (say, 2 0 20^\circ or more) is there a noticeable decrease in the period.

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 8 months ago

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@Arjen Vreugdenhil That's right. In addition to that, the period of a pendulum is also largely independent of its velocity at its mean position.

Pranshu Gaba - 3 years, 8 months ago

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@Pranshu Gaba Naturally, since the velocity at mean position is proportional to the amplitude: v m a x = 2 g ( 1 cos A ) g A v_{max} = \sqrt{2g(1 - \cos A)\ell} \approx \sqrt{g\ell}A ( A A is angular amplitude, A = θ m a x A = \theta_{max} ; approximation applies to small amplitudes).

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 8 months ago
Sparsh Singh
Sep 28, 2017

Relevant wiki: Pendulums

The COM (Center of Mass) of the bob first moves down and then returns to the initial position (once fully empty). Since, T is proportional to the square root of the length at which the COM exists (from the hinge); therefore, Time period shall first increase then decrease returning back to almost the initial value (as rod may have some mass).

In my opinion, one cannot confidently answer this question. There aren't enough given assumptions. The dimensions of the cylinder, whether or not is has mass, whether the mass is proportional to the mass of the rod, if it has mass, etc all impact the outcome of the question. The classic point mass pendulum assumes no mass in the rod. If you replace the point-mass with a masses cylinder with a fluid that has mass, then the COM distance only increases from the pivot until it doesn't exist.

D. Moore - 3 years, 8 months ago

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More than that any attempt to model this system or, heaven forbid, actually run the experiment will discover that the rate of leakage will vary through the swing. I set up "but didn't solve" the resulting diff. eq. It isn't pretty. The answer, given the assumption of constant linear flow, is correct (the period will change, qualitatively, the way described) but if we are down into these kinds of weeds where do you stop?

Paul Beeken - 3 years, 8 months ago

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Even if the flow is not assumed to be linear, the answer remains the same. The period at any instant depends on the distance of the center of mass from the pivot, which first increases then decreases.

Pranshu Gaba - 3 years, 8 months ago

The answer remains the same if the rod has mass or not. The answer also does not depend on the dimensions of the cylinder. The only assumption made is that the cylinder is not massless, which is completely reasonable.

Pranshu Gaba - 3 years, 8 months ago

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It's not the same! Let the rod be 100g , the cylinder 1000g and the water 1g. When the water runs out, the Center Of Mass moves up...... for ALL positive masses you might choose.

gene koveski - 3 years, 7 months ago

I just figured that a heavier bottle will mean more force, but at the same time more inertia. Since the water is leaking out, it means that the inertia on the bottle would decrease faster than the force on the bottle (considering the size of the bottle, the leak would lead to a significant decrease on weight over time). This would lead to a momentary increase in the period of the pendulum, but since both are constantly decreasing, it would reach a point in which the loss of water would be unable to make up for the loss and the period would start to decrease until it reaches a point in which the force is zero.

I was really confused by the contribution of this effect for my answer, It's clear that the evolution of the CDM will modify the period, but the evolution of the mass and the inertia is more difficult to apprehend ! The bottle start going down with a mass M0 and a potential energy M0.g.h, but at the lowest point it now has a lower mass M1 and will continue losing weight on the way up, so it should reach a higher point than the starting point to conserve the energy, but is it really the case ? The "extra" kinetic and potential energy might be transferred to the falling water and then it cancel out, leaving just the effect of the CDM evolution... I'm really not sure.

franky rgergrgre - 3 years, 8 months ago

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If I'm not mistaken, the energy used to cause the water to fall out of the pendulum should all be stored as potential energy generated when the water was lifted to the height of the pendulum. The energy used to draw the pendulum back for the initial swing would be additional potential energy. I am an idiot, and I have been drinking, so I might be deeply incorrect.

M Corn - 3 years, 8 months ago

The time period is given by 2 π l g 2 \pi \sqrt{\frac lg} where l l is the distance of the center of mass from the pivot, and g g is the gravity. The time period does not really depend on the mass of the bob.

If we consider the cylinder and the water separately and apply conservation of energy to both of them, then we see that the final height is the same as the starting height. Any water that leaks out and loses height gains kinetic energy. The cylinder does not lose any energy, so its final height is equal to its initial height.

Pranshu Gaba - 3 years, 8 months ago

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The formula does not depend on the mass of the pendulum as long as it remains constant while it swings. It's like when we say that the acceleration due to gravity in free fall doesn't depend on the mass of the object. If the mass of the system in free fall vary, the acceleration also vary. That's (in my opinion) the reason why, in bungee jumping, the acceleration you have during the first part of the jump is greater than g. (see "chain drop experiment" by Veritasium for an example of that, note : I don't think he agree with me for the explanation), the system in "free fall" is you plus a part of the rope that is hanging directly from you. during the jump, the part of the rope that hangs from you decreases and more rope hangs from the fixed point on the bridge. Therefore it's like the system in free fall was losing mass along the fall (I know it's not technically free fall since a rope connects you to a fixed point but I really think that this is what happens).

I think I need to build one of those to be sure !

franky rgergrgre - 3 years, 7 months ago

We note that the period T T increases with the pendulum length L L , the distance between the pivot to the center of mass of the pendulum. Let the masses of the rod and water be m r m_r and m w m_w , and the lengths of the rod and cylinder be L r L_r and L w L_w respectively. Assuming that the cylinder has negligible mass. And let the portion of water flows out be x [ 0 , 1 ] x \in [0,1] . Then the pendulum length for an x x is given by:

L ( x ) = ( 1 x ) m w ( L r + x L w + ( 1 x ) L w 2 ) + m r L r 2 ( 1 x ) m w + m r = ( 1 x ) m w ( 2 L r + ( 1 + x ) L w ) + m r L r 2 ( ( 1 x ) m w + m r ) \begin{aligned} L(x) & = \frac {(1-x)m_w \left(L_r + xL_w + \frac {(1-x)L_w}2\right) + \frac {m_rL_r}2}{(1-x)m_w+m_r} \\ & = \frac {(1-x)m_w \left( 2L_r + (1+x)L_w\right) + m_rL_r}{2\left((1-x)m_w+m_r\right)} \end{aligned}

For large x x or x 1 x \approx 1 or the cylinder is almost full, we can assume m w m r m_w \gg m_r . Then,

L ( x ) ( 1 x ) m w ( 2 L r + ( 1 + x ) L w ) 2 ( 1 x ) m w = L r + ( 1 + x ) L w 2 \begin{aligned} L(x) & \approx \frac {(1-x)m_w \left( 2L_r + (1+x)L_w\right)}{2(1-x)m_w} = L_r + \frac {(1+x)L_w}2 \end{aligned}

Then when it is full, L ( 0 ) L r + L w 2 L(0) \approx L_r + \dfrac {L_w}2 . And when x = 0.1 x=0.1 , L ( 0.1 ) L r + 1.1 L w 2 > L ( 0 ) L(0.1) \approx L_r + \dfrac {1.1L_w}2 > L(0) .

But when the cylinder is empty or x = 1 x=1 , then L ( 1 ) = ( 1 1 ) m w ( 2 L r + ( 1 + 1 ) L w ) + m r L r 2 ( ( 1 1 ) m w + m r ) = L r 2 < L ( 0 ) L(1) = \dfrac {(1-1)m_w \left( 2L_r + (1+1)L_w\right) + m_rL_r}{2\left((1-1)m_w+m_r\right)} = \dfrac {L_r}2 < L(0) .

Therefore, L ( x ) L(x) and hence the period T T first increases then decreases .

Matthew Sass
Oct 15, 2017

My intuition says:

If the cylinder is NOT leaking: (potential energy at position 1) = (potential energy at position 2) - (kinetic energy lost to the system). Therefore, each swing results in a steady loss of potential energy, ultimately slowing the swing to a stop.

If the cylinder IS leaking: (potential energy at position1) > (potential energy at position 1) - (kinetic energy lost to the system). Therefore, each swing gets a bit of a "boost" and swings faster because there is MORE energy at the start of the swing than at the end...that is, untill the leaking cylinder is empty. Then, the system reverts to a simpler "lossy" system, ultimately slowing the swing to a stop.

Make sense?

Ricardo Nieblas
Oct 14, 2017

As far as I concern, it's simple to determine the answer. By common sense, when it starts swinging the water is eventually emptying, leading to less energy used to swing, and it'll swing further. Once the cylinder gets empty, it has to stop moving. Just saying, ignore me if you disagree, I'm not a scientific.

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