A classical mechanics problem by Mr X

You fill a cylindrical water tank, with the bottom securely closed, with 5 minutes of constant water flow from the top.

You turn off the flow at the top, and let the full tank drain freely by the force of gravity, through a pipe on the bottom. It takes 10 minutes to empty the tank.

If this pipe is accidentally left open when the tank is being filled, how long will it take to fill the tank?

In 5 minutes In 10 minutes In 15 minutes In 25 minutes In 50 minutes The tank will never fill

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3 solutions

Shaun Leong
Sep 6, 2017

Relevant wiki: Fluid Mechanics

Let H H be the fixed height of container, h h be the current height of water, A A be the cross-sectional area of the cylinder, and a a be the cross-sectional area of the pipe at the bottom.

For the 300 300 second case, assuming a constant rate of water flow, d h d t = H 300 \dfrac{dh}{dt} = \dfrac{H}{300}

For the 600 600 second case, by Torricelli's Law, v = 2 g h v=\sqrt{2gh} d V d t = A d h d t = a 2 g h \dfrac{dV}{dt} = A\dfrac{dh}{dt} = -a\sqrt{2gh} d h h = a 2 g A d t \dfrac{dh}{\sqrt{h}} = -\dfrac{a\sqrt{2g}}{A}dt H 0 d h h = a 2 g A 0 600 d t \int_H^0 \dfrac{dh}{\sqrt{h}} = -\dfrac{a\sqrt{2g}}{A} \int_0^{600} dt 2 H = 600 a 2 g A -2\sqrt{H} = -\dfrac{600a\sqrt{2g}}{A} H = 2 g ( 300 ) 2 a 2 A 2 H=\dfrac{2g(300)^2a^2}{A^2}

Thus combining both the water flow from the tap and out of the pipe, d h d t = H 300 a 2 g h A \dfrac{dh}{dt} = \dfrac{H}{300} - \dfrac{a\sqrt{2gh}}{A} d t = d h H 300 a 2 g h A dt=\dfrac{dh}{\dfrac{H}{300} - \dfrac{a\sqrt{2gh}}{A}} a 2 g A d t = d h A H 300 a 2 g h \dfrac{a\sqrt{2g}}{A}dt = \dfrac{dh}{\dfrac{AH}{300a\sqrt{2g}}-\sqrt{h}}

Note that A H 300 a 2 g = A 300 a 2 g 2 g ( 300 ) 2 a 2 A 2 \dfrac{AH}{300a\sqrt{2g}}=\dfrac{A}{300a\sqrt{2g}}\dfrac{2g(300)^2a^2}{A^2} = 300 a 2 g A = H =\dfrac{300a\sqrt{2g}}{A}=\sqrt{H}

Hence a 2 g A T = 0 H d h H h \dfrac{a\sqrt{2g}}{A}T = \int_0^{H} \dfrac{dh}{\sqrt{H}-\sqrt{h}}

which approaches + +\infty , thus the container can never fill up fully.

I'm getting 10 min like some others. I don't believe it is reasonable to expect a tank that fills at twice the rate in which it drains, to not overflow. Like a dam after a heavy rain.

Bob Dailyda - 3 years, 8 months ago

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your reason is absolutely correct

azadali jivani - 3 years, 8 months ago

Why can't this be a regular work problem? It should be 1/5 - 1/10 = 1/t, --> t = 10 min. The tap flows twice as fast as the pipe empties. Assuming, the change in height doesn't affect orifice flow, the rate of change of the water surface level is constant. The statement of the problem suggests this should be a middle school algebra problem, so everything is simplified. The two solutions provided are over-complicating the matter and turning it into a Advanced problem, not an Intermediate level problem like Brilliant suggests it is. Try this problem in real life, increase the inflow of your tank so that it's double the outflow and then you'll see that "never fills up" is incorrect. T = 10 min.

Chad Brittle - 3 years, 8 months ago

This just doesn't seem correct. If I were filing a 10 liter tank at 2 lpm (5 minutes to fill) with a 1 lpm leak at the bottom (10 minutes to empty) - then it would take 10 minutes to fill the tank with the drain valve accidentally left open (let's assume gravity's slight affect on pressure/flow is zero). How can I know this? I've seen it happen many times over the years and what you will see on the usage reports is an unusual fill time/valve activation and elevated water usage. BAM!

Ken Wagner - 3 years, 8 months ago

Why can't you treat this as a standard "work" problem? If you do you get an answer of 10 minutes which seems to make no sense.

Stephen Custadero - 3 years, 8 months ago

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Could you please explain what you mean by standard work problem?

Agnishom Chattopadhyay - 3 years, 8 months ago

How do you prove that the integral approaches infinity?

Atomsky Jahid - 3 years, 9 months ago

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I think one approach would be comparison test with the harmonic series.

Agnishom Chattopadhyay - 3 years, 8 months ago

at the part where you combine the water flow from the tap and the pipe, how did you get what you did after you set everything equal to dt? and each step after that? could you please explain?

Matthew Agona - 3 years, 8 months ago

Torricelli theorem (for a reservoir that receives no inflow) predicts that both the velocity and the discharge (drainage) rate are constant with time whereas only the relationship of the residual water height in the reservoir with time is nonlinear (it is represented by a concave curve, i.e. the residual water column height will decrease with time.) Now, the problem is that the reservoir receives certain recharge rate with Recharge = reservoir volume / filling time when the bottom orifice is closed. This particular case is a modified Torricelli problem. This particular case is a modified Torricelli problem (where the relationship of the residual water column head in the draining reservoir with time is not anymore a linear relationship whereas such relationship is linear for Torricelli reservoir that receives no recharge.) Everybody will give an answer and defend its correctness whereas we have no model to solve it. Moreover, the initial conditions to solve it could be that the reservoir has been filled-up before opening the bottom orifice, or the reservoir was just empty at time zero. This complicates the issue dealt with a bit further. For sure the input (inflow rate) is assumed constant (and this is again a special case of a changing inflow rate that will generalized the case). When we have a modified Torricelli and settle the initial conditions (filled or empty reservoir when the bottom orifice gets opened) we can solve this problem, otherwise it cannot be solved. Who has courage to rum an experiment to learn more using a set of actual observations? Disregarding the above-mentioned remarks on the imposed problem, a simplistic approximate (but acceptable) solution will say that during a time step of one minute the inflow is 1/5th of the reservoir's volume, while the discharge will be 1/10th of the reservoir's volume. Accordingly the reservoir will seemingly get fully filled-up during 10 min. But this is just an approximation.  Apparently, without using calculus, the reservoir will fill close to its full volume within the approximate 10 min as mentioned above, but it not fill-up quite equal to its full volume since there is a small - and changing - increase in the discharge rate due to the changing increase in drainage velocity by the change of the residual head in the reservoir (same fact as applying a changing pneumatic pressure on the top pf the residual water column in the reservoir.) Nonetheless, the 10 min approximation is good, and acceptable, for all practical purposes.

Mohamed Fahmy Hussein - 3 years, 8 months ago

I think I may have a very simple solution, but I'd like some feedback on it because I'm not sure the logic is perfect: I first assume that the volume is 10L so I don't have to work with variables. Next I draw a graph with flow on the Y axis and time on the X for the case when the tank is full and draining. I know the area under the line is 10L and the time is 10 minutes so I put the Y intercept at 2 L/min. From this point it is easy to tell the tank will never be full because the fill rate is 2 L/min, same as drainage rate when it gets near the top. My issue with this solution is the assumption that flow changes linearly over time. I'd appreciate some feedback on this aspect, or anything else.

Ethan Ooamii - 3 years, 8 months ago
Arjen Vreugdenhil
Sep 24, 2017

Let τ \tau be the time it takes to empty the tank when full; and τ / K \tau/K the time it takes to fill the tank. In this problem, K = 2 K = 2 .

If the tank fills to its height h h in time τ / K \tau/K , then the change of water level due to inflow is d y d t = h K τ . \frac{dy}{dt} = \frac {hK}\tau. For the emptying of the tank, consider that the kinetic energy (proportional to ( d y / d t ) 2 (dy/dt)^2 ) of the water leaving is equal to the potential energy (proportional to y y ) of the water disappearing from the top. Therefore d y / d t = c y dy/dt = -c\sqrt y for some constant c c . Combine this with the fact that y = h y = h at t = 0 t = 0 , and t = 0 t = 0 at t = τ t = \tau , we find y = h ( 1 t τ ) 2 , y = h\left(1 - \frac t \tau\right)^2, and d y d t = 2 h τ y . \frac{dy}{dt} = -\frac{2\sqrt h}{\tau}\:\sqrt y.

Qualitative analysis

To find a quick answer to the question, consider under what circumstances the outflow rate would be equal to inflow rate-- in that case, the water level will no longer increase. We solve h K τ = 2 h τ y y = ( K 2 ) 2 h . \frac{hK}\tau = \frac{2\sqrt{h}}{\tau}\:\sqrt y\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \therefore\ \ \ \ \ \ \ y = \left(\frac K 2\right)^2 h. In our situation, K = 2 K = 2 so that the outflow and inflow are matched at y = h y = h . While this does not quite answer the questions, note

  • In this case, the tank may fill up all the way but will never overflow.

  • If the inflow is reduced ( K K increases), y < h y < h , which means that an equilibrium is reached before the tank is full.


Detailed analysis

For the situation of filling with open pipe, we combine the two differential equations: d y d t = h K τ 2 h τ y , \frac{dy}{dt} = \frac {hK}\tau - \frac{2\sqrt{h}}{\tau}\:\sqrt y, which may be separated as d y h K 2 h y = d t τ . \frac{dy}{hK - 2\sqrt{hy}} = \frac {dt}{\tau}. The solution is K 2 ln ( h K 2 h y ) y h = t τ + C ; -\frac K 2 \ln (hK - 2\sqrt{hy}) - \sqrt{\frac y h} = \frac t{\tau} + C; Since y = 0 y = 0 when t = 0 t = 0 , we must have C = K 2 ln h K C = -\tfrac K 2 \ln hK ; incorporating this in the logarithm on the left, we obtain K 2 ln ( 1 2 K y h ) y h = t τ . -\frac K 2 \ln \left(1 - \frac 2K\sqrt{\frac y h}\right) - \sqrt{\frac y h} = \frac t{\tau}. Now we wish to know when the tank will be full, i.e. y = h y = h and therefore y / h = 1 \sqrt{y/h} = 1 . The equation simplifies as K 2 ln ( 1 2 K ) 1 = t τ , -\frac K 2 \ln \left(1 - \frac 2K\right) - 1 = \frac t{\tau}, with solution t = ( K 2 ln ( 1 2 K ) 1 ) τ . t = \left(-\frac K 2 \ln \left(1 - \frac 2 K \right) - 1\right)\:\tau. For K = 2 K = 2 , we obtain a logarithm of zero, making t t infinitely large; the tank will never be filled!

the tank will be filled in 10 min ! 1/(1/5-1/10) = 10 min - easy math .

Vlad Cristian - 3 years, 8 months ago

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You would be correct if the outflow rate were constant. But it isn't-- it depends on the pressure, which in turn depends on the height of the fluid. That is the reason for all the calculus in my solution.

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 8 months ago

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In that case, how much would the inflow need to increase to make the container overflow?

Majofa Dbz - 3 years, 8 months ago

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@Majofa Dbz Any increase in inflow will do. See my final equation: if we increase K K to be slightly greater than 2, the logarithm will no longer be infinite.

The following table shows what happen when we pour faster, i.e. decrease the normal fill time, without changing the outflow pipe.

normal fill time (min) 5 : 00 4 : 59 4 : 58 4 : 55 4 : 50 4 : 45 4 : 30 4 : 00 3 : 00 1 : 00 with open pipe (min) 47 : 14 40 : 27 31 : 38 25 : 11 21 : 32 15 : 35 10 : 07 5 : 16 1 : 09 \begin{array}{r|rrrrrrrrrr} \text{normal fill time (min)} & 5:00 & 4:59 & 4:58 & 4:55 & 4:50 & 4:45 & 4:30 & 4:00 & 3:00 & 1:00 \\ \hline \text{with open pipe (min)} & \infty & 47:14 & 40:27 & 31:38 & 25:11 & 21:32 & 15:35 & 10:07 & 5:16 & 1:09 \\ \hline\end{array}

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 8 months ago

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@Arjen Vreugdenhil I think will help make it more clear to people.

Majofa Dbz - 3 years, 8 months ago

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@Majofa Dbz In the given situation, the tank is never full, but the water level keeps increasing... The third equation from the bottom in my solutions tells you at what time a certain level is reached. As you can see in the following table, after an hour the tank is nearly full, and after another half hour it is completely filled, for all practical purposes.

percent filled y / h 25 % 50 % 75 % 90 % 95 % 98 % 99 % 99.5 % 99.9 % 99.99 % time t (min) 6 12 19 29 36 45 52 59 75 98 \begin{array}{r|rrrrrrrrrr} \text{percent filled}\ y/h & 25\% & 50\% & 75\% & 90\% & 95\% & 98\% & 99\% & 99.5\% & 99.9\% & 99.99\% \\ \hline \text{time}\ t\ \text{(min)} & 6 & 12 & 19 & 29 & 36 & 45 & 52 & 59 & 75 & 98 \\ \hline \end{array}

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 8 months ago

@Arjen Vreugdenhil How can it be so different between 4:59 and 5 min ? It is a matter of 1 second though with pipe open you`ll have 47:14 to infinite ?

Vlad Cristian - 3 years, 8 months ago

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@Vlad Cristian In the 4:59 case, the inflow if slightly faster, just fast enough to actually fill the tank all the way; but toward the end the water level rises very slowly.

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 8 months ago

Ok. Since this was not sated, i supposed that the outflow is constant and independent of pressure and height of fluid.

Vlad Cristian - 3 years, 8 months ago

There is a way to find the right answer without using calculus. It requires to compare maximal outflow rate with that for constant inflow rate. Maximal outflow (maximum height) rate using Torricelli theorem is Vout=a(2gh)^1/2. However, a (cross-section for outflow)) can be expressed using time required to empty the tank without inflow, i.e. 10(min)=A/a ((2h/g)^(1/2). So a=A/10 ((2h/g)^(1/2). If you plug this into the first expression you get V(max)=A/10 ((2h/g)^(1/2) (2gh)^1/2=2Ah/10. It is obvious that constant inflow rate equals Ah/5. Thus, outflow V(max) and inflow rates are equal. This finding suggests that when filling the empty tank with open outflow valve will initially be 'fast'. However, once the water level is approaching h, the difference of in and out rates is approaching zero. From this it follows it will take 'infinite time' to fill the tank to height h.

Mirek Baudys - 3 years, 8 months ago

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@Mirek Baudys That is essentially the argument I gave under "Quantitative Analysis". (The calculus I used up to that point was essentially the derivation of Torricelli's from first principles.)

However, the fact that the increase rate y ( t ) 0 y'(t) \to 0 does not prove that it would take an infinite amount of time for the tank to fill. To see this, consider the following filling processes: y 1 ( t ) = 2 t t 2 ; y 2 ( t ) = 1 e t . y_1(t) = 2t - t^2;\ \ \ \ \ y_2(t) = 1 - e^{-t}. The increase rate depend on height as y 1 = 2 2 1 y 1 ; y 2 = 1 y 2 . y_1' = 2 - 2\sqrt{1 - y_1};\ \ \ \ \ y_2' = 1 - y_2. In both cases, the rate approaches zero as the liquid level y y approaches one. However, in the first situation this amount is reached in finite time ( y 1 ( 1 ) = 1 y_1(1) = 1 ); in the second situation, it takes infinite time ( lim t y 2 ( t ) = 1 \lim_{t\to\infty} y_2(t) = 1 ).

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 8 months ago

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@Arjen Vreugdenhil I don't know if I'm missing something, but I'm getting y 1 = 2 1 y 1 y'_1 = -2 \sqrt{1-y_1} .

You seem to have an extra constant of 2 in there?

Eric Roberts - 1 year, 10 months ago

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@Eric Roberts The constant term 2 comes from differentiating the linear term 2 t 2t in the formula for y 1 ( t ) y_1(t) .

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 1 year, 10 months ago

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@Arjen Vreugdenhil Maybe I'm being careless somewhere?

y 1 = 2 t t 2 \displaystyle y_1 = 2t - t^2 Eq1

y 1 = 2 2 t \displaystyle y'_1 = 2 - 2t Eq2

Then from Eq1, t 2 2 t + y 1 = 0 \displaystyle t^2 - 2t + y_1 = 0

t = 2 + 4 4 ( 1 ) ( y 1 ) 2 = 1 + 1 y 1 \displaystyle t = \frac{2 + \sqrt{4 - 4(1)(y_1)}}{2} = 1 + \sqrt{1-y_1} Eq3

Sub Eq3 \rightarrow Eq2

y 1 = 2 2 t = 2 2 ( 1 + 1 y 1 ) = 2 1 y 1 \displaystyle y'_1 = 2 - 2t = 2 - 2 \left( 1 + \sqrt{1-y_1} \right) = -2\sqrt{ 1 - y_1}

What prompted me to check this was when you say right below that y 1 0 y'_1 \rightarrow 0 as y 1 1 y_1 \rightarrow 1 ?

What you have written goes to 2.

Eric Roberts - 1 year, 10 months ago

I like your way to solve the problems

Mr X - 3 years, 8 months ago

Shaun Leong - It would be nice if you proved your last statement regarding the integral of dh(/(sqrtH -sqrth) from 0 to H being unbounded and not just stating it as if it were obvious because it is not.

The initial part of the proof is beautiful

Steve Garramone [email protected]

Stephen Garramone - 3 years, 8 months ago

Torricelli theorem (for a reservoir that receives no inflow) predicts that both the velocity and the discharge (drainage) rate are constant with time whereas only the relationship of the residual water height in the reservoir with time is nonlinear (it is represented by a concave curve, i.e. the residual water column height will decrease with time.)

Now, the problem is that the reservoir receives certain recharge rate with Recharge = reservoir volume / filling time when the bottom orifice is closed.

This particular case is a modified Torricelli problem (where the relationship of the residual water column head in the draining reservoir with time is not anymore a linear relationship whereas such relationship is linear for Torricelli reservoir that receives no recharge.)

Everybody will give an answer and defend its correctness whereas we have no model to solve it. Moreover, the initial conditions to solve it could be that the reservoir has been filled-up before opening the bottom orifice, or the reservoir was just empty at time zero. This complicates the issue dealt with a bit further. For sure the input (inflow rate) is assumed constant (and this is again a special case of a changing inflow rate that will generalized the case). When we have a modified Torricelli and settle the initial conditions (filled or empty reservoir when the bottom orifice gets opened) we can solve this problem, otherwise it cannot be solved. Who has courage to rum an experiment to learn more using a set of actual observations?

Disregarding the above-mentioned remarks on the imposed problem, a simplistic approximate (but acceptable) solution will say that during a time step of one minute the inflow is 1/5th of the reservoir's volume, while the discharge will be 1/10th of the reservoir's volume. Accordingly, the reservoir will seemingly get fully filled-up during 10 min. But this is just an approximation.

Apparently, without using calculus, the reservoir will fill close to its full volume within the approximate 10 min as mentioned above, but it will not fill-up quite equal to its full volume since there is a small - and changing - increase in the discharge rate due to the changing increase in drainage velocity by the change of the residual head in the reservoir (same fact as applying a changing pneumatic pressure on the top pf the residual water column in the reservoir.)

Nonetheless, the 10 min approximation is good, and acceptable, for all practical purposes.

It fills at twice the rate that empties so as above said it fill in 10 min and after that it overflows. How is the answer the tank will never fill when it will eventually overflow??

James Emery - 3 years, 8 months ago

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you are correct

azadali jivani - 3 years, 8 months ago

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