A Tale Of a b ab & a + b a+b

We know 2 + 2 = 2 × 2. 2 + 2 = 2\times 2.

But are there two distinct positive integers a a and b b such that their sum and their product are equal: a + b = a × b ? a + b = a\times b ?

No Yes

This section requires Javascript.
You are seeing this because something didn't load right. We suggest you, (a) try refreshing the page, (b) enabling javascript if it is disabled on your browser and, finally, (c) loading the non-javascript version of this page . We're sorry about the hassle.

27 solutions

Jason Dyer Staff
Jul 16, 2018

a + b = a b a = a b b a = b ( a 1 ) a a 1 = b \begin{aligned} a + b &= ab \\ a &= ab - b \\ a &= b(a-1) \\ \frac{a}{a-1} &= b \end{aligned}

(There's no possible division by zero here; a 1 a \neq 1 since that would imply 1 + b = b . ) 1 + b = b .)

Since a a is a positive integer, b b is from the set { 2 1 , 3 2 , 4 3 , 5 4 , 6 5 , } . \{\frac{2}{1}, \frac{3}{2}, \frac{4}{3}, \frac{5}{4}, \frac{6}{5}, \ldots\}.

However, with the exception of 2 ÷ 1 , 2 \div 1, consecutive positive integers when divided have a remainder of 1, so b b cannot be an integer except in the case of 2 1 . \frac{2}{1} . This implies the only positive integer solution is a = b = 2. a = b = 2 .

Best explanation

Noor Hasan - 2 years, 10 months ago

I am surprised to see the 'early school' division symbol (dot over horizontal line over dot) used. Does LaTex not display a forward slash (/) for division ?

Jesse Otis - 2 years, 10 months ago

Log in to reply

The slash displays just fine. 2 / 1 2/1

There's nothing technically wrong with the obelus, and there are situations where the slash can be confusing ("On 5/4 we received 5/6 of the shipment.")

Jason Dyer Staff - 2 years, 10 months ago

Log in to reply

Thanks for the info (and I did not know that it is called an obelus :-) ). You are certainly right about the slash used in dates; I use them almost always. This is a great website ! I am learning quite a bit; I have always struggled with mathematics and am definitely getting benefit from the site.

Jesse Otis - 2 years, 10 months ago

a+b(1-a)=0. so both term a, b(1-a) is 0. let a=0,so b isn't 0. which is contradictory.

ridoy k - 2 years, 9 months ago
Brian Moehring
Jul 12, 2018

Add 1 a b 1-a-b to both sides of the equation to get a b a b + 1 = 1 ( a 1 ) ( b 1 ) = 1 ab - a - b + 1 = 1 \\ (a-1)(b-1) = 1

Note that a 1 , b 1 a-1, b-1 are integers, and the only way for the product of two integers to equal 1 1 is for a 1 = 1 = b 1 or a 1 = 1 = b 1 a-1 = -1 = b-1 \qquad \text{ or } \qquad a-1 = 1 = b-1 Either way, we have a = b a=b , which is disallowed in the problem, so the answer is no \boxed{\text{no}} .

Very nice.

Jesse Otis - 2 years, 10 months ago
Pi Han Goh
Jul 19, 2018

Dividing both sides by a × b a\times b gives 1 a + 1 b = 1 \dfrac 1a + \dfrac 1b = 1 .

Because a a and b b are distinct, without the loss of generality, we can assume that a < b a<b , then 1 a > 1 b 1 a + 1 a > 1 a + 1 b = 1 a < 2. \frac1a > \frac1b \quad \Rightarrow \quad \frac1a + \frac1a > \frac 1a + \frac1b = 1 \quad \Rightarrow\quad a < 2.

This means that a a must be equal to 1 only, then 1 a + 1 b = 1 1 b = 0 \dfrac1a + \dfrac1b = 1\Rightarrow \dfrac1b = 0 which is absurd because the ratio of 2 positive integers cannot be equal to 0. Hence, there's no solution.

Dividing the given equation by a b ab gives 1 a + 1 b = 1 \frac{1}{a} + \frac{1}{b} = 1 .

Brian Moehring - 2 years, 10 months ago

Log in to reply

Whoops. I've revamped my solution.

Pi Han Goh - 2 years, 10 months ago

Log in to reply

Looks good.

Brian Moehring - 2 years, 10 months ago

Log in to reply

@Brian Moehring Thanks. Here's another one while I'm at it:

Let a + b = a × b = c a + b =a \times b = c for some positive integer c c , then by Vieta's formula, the equation x 2 c x + c = 0 x^2 - cx +c = 0 has distinct integer roots (of x x ), however, by rearranging, we can see that x 2 c ( x 1 ) = 0 c = x 2 x 1 = x 2 1 + 1 x 1 = x + 1 + 1 x 1 x^2 - c(x -1) = 0 \Rightarrow c = \frac{x^2}{x-1} = \frac{x^2-1+1}{x-1} = x + 1 + \frac1{x-1} . Since c c is an integer, then so is x + 1 + 1 x 1 x + 1 + \frac1{x-1} , thus x 1 = ± 1 x = 0 , 2 x- 1= \pm 1 \Rightarrow x= 0,2 . However, neither of these values of x x yields distinct positive integer solutions of a , b a,b . A contradiction!

Pi Han Goh - 2 years, 10 months ago

Log in to reply

@Pi Han Goh That's a great solution, too!

David Vreken - 2 years, 10 months ago

'ratio of 2 positive integers cannot be equal to 0' I don't understand this, but I got around it with Jason Dyer's explanation: a can't be equal to 1, 'cause it would imply that 1 + b = b

giorgi shengelaia - 2 years, 10 months ago

Log in to reply

'ratio of 2 positive integers cannot be equal to 0' I don't understand this

If a a and b b are positive integers, and that their ratio is equal to 0, then a / b = 0 a/b = 0 , which means a = 0 a= 0 . But a a is positive, so a 0 a\ne0 . A contradiction.

Pi Han Goh - 2 years, 10 months ago

Log in to reply

thank you so much. I'm not a native speaker so I mixed to things up. I thought ratio was this - 1 / a + 1 / b 1/a + 1/b , which is not correct

giorgi shengelaia - 2 years, 10 months ago

Log in to reply

@Giorgi Shengelaia No problem. I'm happy to clarify!

Pi Han Goh - 2 years, 10 months ago

Thats a clever proof

Kumash Patel - 2 years, 10 months ago

Awesome proof, Pi. Love it.

Jesse Otis - 2 years, 10 months ago
Arjen Vreugdenhil
Jul 22, 2018

Without loss of generality, suppose b > a b > a . Consider two possible cases:

Case I : a = 1 a = 1 . Then a × b = 1 × b = b < 1 + b = a + b . \begin{aligned} a \times b & = 1 \times b \\ & = b \\ & < 1 + b = a + b. \end{aligned}

Case II : a 2 a \geq 2 . Then a × b 2 × b = b + b > a + b . \begin{aligned} a \times b & \geq 2 \times b \\ & = b + b > a + b. \end{aligned}

In either case, a × b a + b a \times b \not = a + b .

Beautiful. Love it.

Jesse Otis - 2 years, 10 months ago
Nick Ni
Jul 22, 2018

well, the thing is I have no fancy equation to state I simply want to explain how my number instincts reacted so if that's what you're looking for you might be disappointed. ok with that being said here's how I solved this one. at first, I thought "ok, let's try to find a number that works!!" but I realized it's impossible the higher the number goes the further the product from the sum!! and no decimals would work so I selected no and got it right!!(~˘▾˘)~

I did similarly (it takes only a handful of very rapid mental calculations to realise what is happening here and conclude that the answer is no).

Thomas Sutcliffe - 2 years, 10 months ago

I did in the same way too but is it ok if I dont have any technical explanation for it like equations? Does that mean that we are bad?

Osama Aijaz - 2 years, 10 months ago
David Vreken
Jul 21, 2018

Solving a + b = a b a + b = ab for b b gives b = a a 1 b = \frac{a}{a - 1} which is b = a 1 + 1 a 1 b = \frac{a - 1 + 1}{a - 1} or b = 1 + 1 a 1 b = 1 + \frac{1}{a - 1} .

In order for b b to be an integer, a 1 a - 1 must divide evenly into 1 1 , and since a a is also an integer and since the only integer factors of 1 1 are 1 1 and 1 -1 , a 1 = 1 a - 1 = 1 or a 1 = 1 a - 1 = -1 , which solves to a = 2 a = 2 or a = 0 a = 0 . Since a a must also be positive, a = 2 a = 2 .

If a = 2 a = 2 , then b = 1 + 1 2 1 = 2 b = 1 + \frac{1}{2 - 1} = 2 , which means if a a and b b are integer solutions then they are not distinct.

Proofs are beautiful; I wish that I was 'fluent' with them.

Jesse Otis - 2 years, 10 months ago

Did it the same way=)

Garv Khurana - 2 years, 7 months ago
Ka Fai Un
Jul 23, 2018

Suppose b>a, divides b on both sides

We have a b \frac{a}{b} +1 = a

or a b \frac{a}{b} = a-1

The left hand side is a proper fraction but the right hand side is an integer .

So NO .

I had a similar approach but without assuming b > a. For a positive integer solution both a/b and b/a would have to be integer. This is only possible if a = b.

Oscar Dijkhoff - 2 years, 10 months ago
Abhishek Sinha
Jul 24, 2018

Without any loss of generality, let's assume that a b a\geq b , where b > 2 b>2 . Hence, we have a + b = a b > 2 a , a+b=ab>2a, which implies b > a , b>a, yielding a contradiction.

"...where b>2. Hence, we have a+b=ab>2a..."

Good and simple solution, but I took some time to understand you were multiplying both sides of (b>2) by "a". You could a win a lot in clarity if you put a statement explaining that.

João Pedro Afonso - 2 years, 10 months ago
Piero Sarti
Jul 25, 2018

We can make the problem quite a bit easier by checking if the equation balances in certain circumstances.

For example, if we let one of a a or b b be even and the other odd, then looking at the equation we see that this gives us even + odd = even × odd \text{even} + \text{odd} = \text{even}\times\text{odd} which is clearly false. Similarly, setting both a a and b b as odd we get that odd + odd = odd × odd \text{odd} + \text{odd} = \text{odd}\times\text{odd} which is also impossible. This means that both a a and b b must both be even. We will use this fact later.

Now rearranging the equation:

a + b = a × b b = a a 1 a + b = a \times b \rightarrow b = \dfrac{a}{a - 1}

If we let a = 2 m a = 2m and b = 2 s b = 2s then we get that 2 s = 2 m 2 m 1 s = m 2 m 1 2s = \dfrac{2m}{2m - 1} \rightarrow s = \dfrac{m}{2m - 1} . Note that for integers m > 1 m > 1 , 2 m 1 > m 0 < s < 1 2m - 1 > m \implies 0 < s < 1 and therefore b b will not be an integer. This is of course unless m = 1 m = 1 in which case we get the solution 2 + 2 = 2 × 2 2 + 2 = 2\times 2 which we can ignore.

Jeremy Galvagni
Jul 22, 2018

Here is a graph from which it can be seen the only two lattice points are (2,2) and (0,0). The dotted lines are asymptotes where the graph is approaching a=1 in one direction and b=1 in the other, but this never happens.

Ruồi Ăn Táo
Jul 27, 2018

It's very easy!

Since a+b=ab

ab-a-b=0

ab-a-b+1=1

a(b-1)-(b-1)=1

(a-1)(b-1)=1=1 * 1=(-1) * (-1)

Therefore, a and b be 0;0 or 2;2

Passing the 'a' to the other side and putting it on evidence we can see that (b-1) needs to be a divisor of b. The only integer that satisfies that is '2'. So b (and therefore a) are both equal to 2.

Richard Desper
Jul 25, 2018

Without loss of generality, a < b a < b .

Case 1: a = 1 a = 1 . Then b = a b < a + b b = a*b < a + b .

Case 2: a 2 a \geq 2 . Then a + b < 2 b a b a + b < 2*b \leq a * b .

Orla Koci
Jul 25, 2018
  • We can prove that there is just one case of two possible integers equal to each other being equal to 2 referring to case that satisfy the condition 2+2=2x2 by writing a series of identities that are true and may induct the case; otherwise in the final step there is no other solution so the only scenario stays true to the integer: 2. a + b = a x b (a + b)(a - b) = a x b (a- b) a^2 - b^2 = a^2b - ab^2 a^2 - a^2b = b^2 - ab^2 a^2(1 - b) = b^2(1 - a) We have assumed that a>b <=> a-b>0, and also this means a^2/b^2>0 and b =/= 0, or 1 --since for b=0 we have: a + 0 = 0 This compromises the condition to get a=/=0; we could also had initially b stating it is a positive integer and not proved it for a. At the same time if b = 1, b-1=0 and a^2(1-b)=b^2(1-a): 0 = 1 - a <=> a= -1; again not a >0 as in condition of problem. Therefore we can state the last identity: a^2/b^2 = (1-a)/(1-b) From this we have a=b to get the ratios equal in both sides otherwise we would have a ratio =/= 1 : impossible..., because we stated earlier that a^2/b^2>0 <=> (1-a)/(1-b)>0 so this entails only the case where a=b and both greater than 0 otherwise if a=/=b (1-a)/(1-b) =/=1 and <0, but we started in the right of the identity firstly with assuming that a^2/b^2>0 which derives directly from the conditions of the problem a and b are positive integers so both of their squares are greater than zero. Now we can find if there is any solution to this problem by solving and substituting in the identity a^2(1-b)=b^2(1-a) the latest of this: (1-a)/(1-b) = 1 <=> 1 -a = 1/(1-b) so a=b and a or b =/= 1 or 0 and are positive integers, so 1-b= 1/(1-b) and we get b(b-2)=0 <=> b=0 or b=2 This means the only possible case is letting a=b=2(Q.E.D.)
Max Weinstein
Jul 25, 2018

Take modulo a a of both sides:

a + b a b m o d a a+b \equiv ab \mod a

0 + b 0 b m o d a 0+b \equiv 0\cdot b \mod a

b 0 m o d a b \equiv 0 \mod a

This means b = k a b=ka for some integer k k .

Taking modulo b b of both sides similarly yields a = l b a=lb for some integer l l .

Substituting for a a in b = k a b=ka :

b = k ( l b ) 1 = k l l = 1 / k b=k(lb) \Rightarrow 1=kl \Rightarrow l=1/k

l l is an integer, so 1 / k 1/k is an integer. However, k k is also an integer

k = 1 b = 1 a = a \therefore k=1 \Rightarrow b=1\cdot a = a

So a a and b b must be equal.

Srinivasa Gopal
Jul 25, 2018

a+b = ab; So a = (b/b-1) implies that a can take integer values only when b = 2 , for all other values of b greater than 2, a will be decimal which is not allowed as per the question.

"So a = (b/b-1) implies that a is irrational"

You probably want to say the number ((b-1)/b) is a proper fraction ("except when b= 2."), not, irrational.

João Pedro Afonso - 2 years, 10 months ago
Hiren Namera
Jul 25, 2018
  • a+b=a*b
  • a+b/a*b=1
  • 1/b+1/a=1
  • we will not get 1/a+1/b =1 for any number except 2. so there is no possible solution for positive integer...
Harsh Vardhan
Jul 24, 2018

a+b=a*b can be treated as x+y-xy=0 so simply we have to find its intersection with x=y line which is at (0,0) and (2,2) hence they are not distinct positive integers

Broken Mind
Jul 24, 2018

if
a + b = a b a+b = ab
then
a = b ( a 1 ) a = b(a-1)
and
a a 1 = b \frac{a}{a-1} = b




A little more rearranging gives
1 a 1 = b 1 \frac{1}{a-1} = b-1
From here it is easy to see that the 1 a 1 \frac{1}{a-1} part will never be an integer after 2 and so there are no two distinct integer solutions

Siva S
Jul 24, 2018

This question can be solved by considering some sample values:

i. The solution can not have one of the values as 1, since addition increments the other value but multiplication doesn't.

ii. Any other value apart from (2, 2) will definitely show massive difference between the sum and product (e.g., the lowest set 2+3=5 and 2×3=6), and this difference widens with higher set of values.

Binky Mh
Jul 23, 2018

We can rearrange a + b = a × b a+b=a\times b to a a 1 = b \frac{a}{a-1}=b .

for b b to be an integer, a 1 a-1 must be a factor of a a . The only number for which this is the case is 2 2 (as all other cases would remainder 1 1 ).

Uros Stojkovic
Jul 23, 2018

It's obvious that solutions ( a , b ) = ( 1 , 1 ) (a,b) = (1,1) , ( a , b ) = ( 1 , b ) (a,b) = (1,b) or ( a , b ) = ( a , 1 ) (a,b) = (a,1) are not possible because of additive and multiplicative property of 1. Now, let's assume there are positive integers a a and b b not less than 2 2 such that the expression holds. Let it be:

a = 2 + x b = 2 + y , \begin{aligned} a &= 2 + x \\ b &= 2 + y, \end{aligned}

where x x and y y are some non-negative integers. Then, the following must also hold:

a + b = a b ( 2 + 2 ) + x + y = ( 2 2 ) + 2 ( x + y ) + x y ( x + y ) = x y \begin{aligned}a + b &= ab \\ (2 + 2) + x + y &= (2 \cdot 2) + 2(x+y) + xy \\ -(x+y) &= xy \end{aligned}

But since x x and y y are non-negative integers, left-hand side of the expression must be non-positive and right-hand side non-negative. The expression, thus, only holds when ( x , y ) = ( 0 , 0 ) (x,y) = (0,0) implying that ( a , b ) = ( 2 , 2 ) (a,b) = (2,2) is the only solution.

Matt Gent
Jul 29, 2018

If a a and b b are distinct & positive this means that they are not the same and must be larger than zero. Then you can assume that if a a > b b (the reverse could be argued) then a = b + n a = b + n , where n n must also be positive and larger than zero (to make a a and b b distinct) .

Substitute this to the equation above and you obtain a quadratic equation in terms of b b and therefore a solution in terms of n n : b = 2 n ± n 2 + 4 2 b = \frac{2-n\pm\sqrt{n^2+4}}{2} .

Inspect the determinant of the quadratic, in order for b b to be an integer at the square root of this determinant must be rational (then of course the whole numerator must be a multiple of 2 but need not go that far). For the determinant to be rational n 2 + 4 n^2 + 4 must therefore equal a square number i.e. 4, 9, 16, 25, etc.

Since n must be a positive integer which is larger than zero the minimum square number it can equal is 9. From 9 and beyond the difference between square numbers is larger than 4 thus making n n irrational and so the determinant irrational.

Scott Oswald
Jul 28, 2018

Suppose a + b = a b a+b = ab and divide both sides by a a . 1 + b a = b 1 + \frac{b}{a} = b . b a \frac{b}{a} must be integer, therefore a a divides b b (write this as a b a | b ). By symmetry, we also have b a b | a . But integers under the division relation form a partially ordered set (a poset) so if a b a|b and b a b|a , then a = b a=b for all solutions.

Marijo Cook
Jul 27, 2018

Avijit Dey
Jul 27, 2018

I don't need any equation to prove myself. I'm confident of my answer. There doesn't exist any other integer except 2.

Bruce Merritt
Jul 25, 2018

Did something change in the app? It happened again.. I answer a question correctly to continue my streak and it does not register correctly.

0 pending reports

×

Problem Loading...

Note Loading...

Set Loading...