Can 2 , 3 , 5 all be numbers in an arithmetic progression ?
Note: The three numbers do not need to be consecutive in the progression.
This section requires Javascript.
You are seeing this because something didn't load right. We suggest you, (a) try
refreshing the page, (b) enabling javascript if it is disabled on your browser and,
finally, (c)
loading the
non-javascript version of this page
. We're sorry about the hassle.
Can you prove that those three numbers cannot be in G.P too.
Log in to reply
Yes, again by contradiction. Suppose 2 = a r m , 3 = a r n and 5 = a r t for distinct positive integers m , n , t and non-zero reals a , r . Then
2 3 = r n − m ⟹ 2 3 = r 2 ( n − m ) ⟹ r = ( 3 2 ) 2 ( n − m ) 1 and
3 5 = r t − n ⟹ 3 5 = r 2 ( t − n ) ⟹ r = ( 3 5 ) 2 ( t − n ) 1 .
After equating these two expressions for r and simplifying we will end up with 2 t − n 5 n − m = 3 t − m . But by the Fundamental Theorem of Arithmetic we cannot have two distinct prime factorizations of an integer, completing the proof by contradiction.
Absolutely correct.Good Job!!!
I had to look up the definition of an arithmetic progression. Then I used innate sense of cardinality as applied to the number of primes I can count mentally or using two hands etc and intuited that the roots of 2, 3, and 5 'felt' like they were irrational or 'unboildownable' and concluded that they couldn't represent part of a sequence that moved by a constant amount.
I'm afraid I am not understanding how did you get the 3*sqrt(3). Could you explain it? I get sqrt(15)-sqrt(6).
Log in to reply
You are right; thanks for catching that. I'm surprised no one had noticed that mistake before now.
Don't you need to prove that the final number is irrational?
Log in to reply
Good point. Subtracting a rational from an irrational yields an irrational, so it suffices to prove that 1 5 + 1 0 − 6 is irrational. By contradiction, suppose this expression equals some rational a . Then 1 5 + 1 0 = a + 6 . Squaring both sides yields
1 5 + 1 0 + 2 1 5 0 = a 2 + 6 + 2 a 6 ⟹ 1 9 − a 2 = 2 a 6 − 2 6 × 2 5 = ( 2 a − 1 0 ) 6 .
Now 1 9 − a 2 is rational, as is 2 a − 1 0 , but since 6 is irrational the product ( 2 a − 1 0 ) 6 is irrational, giving us the desired contradiction.
Note: The product of a non-zero rational r = 0 and an irrational x is irrational. By contradiction, suppose r x = q for some non-zero rational q . Then x = r q would be rational by closure of rationals over (non-zero) division, giving us our contradiction. Finally, since 1 5 + 1 0 ≈ 6 and 6 ≈ 2 . 4 we know that a = 5 ⟹ 2 a − 1 0 = 0 , so the non-zero condition is satisfied.
Hmmm.... This "clarification" was as long as my posted solution. I'm glad you asked; I had to think about that for a while. :)
Log in to reply
Cheers. I'd reached the same stage and assumed the value was irrational because it "looked" irrational. It was a minor challenge but as a proof it looks complete now.
I think there is a typo in the first line : should it not say root(5) = a + rd ?
Log in to reply
You're right; thanks for catching that. :)
For this proof we're going to use the facts that
addition / subtraction / multiplication / division in nonzero rationals is closed
and
the square roots of positive nonsquare integers (2, 3, 5, 6, etc.) are irrational.
Suppose 2 , 3 , and 5 are all part of the same arithmetic sequence. Then there must be integers a and b such that
a ( 3 − 2 ) = b ( 5 − 3 )
Letting rational number R = b a we can write this as
R ( 3 − 2 ) R 3 − R 2 = 5 − 3 = 5 − 3
Add 3 to both sides. This gets the term ( R + 1 ) 3 where R + 1 is rational. Let Q = R + 1 .
Q 3 − R 2 = 5
Square both sides.
3 Q 2 + 2 R 2 − 2 Q R 6 = 5
Now we can subtract 3 Q 2 and 2 R 2 from 5 and the result must be rational.
− 2 Q R 6 = ( a rational number )
We can also then divide both sides by − 2 Q R and the right hand of the equal sign will still be rational.
6 = ( a rational number )
But since the square root of a nonsquare integer is irrational, this is a contradiction. Hence 2 , 3 , and 5 must not be part of the same arithmetic sequence. □
There's many proofs that if N is not a perfect square then N is not rational. Here is one of the simplest:
Suppose N is a rational number A B in lowest terms.
With some algebra ...
N N N B N A = A B = A B N = N
... we can justify that A B = B N A .
Since A B is in lowest terms, there exists an integer c such that B c = N A and A c = B .
From A c = B we also have c = A B . This means A B is an integer, implying N is an integer and consequently N is a perfect square.
Therefore, if N is a rational number, N is a perfect square.
This also indicates the contrapositive: if N is not a perfect square, then N is not a rational number.
I love the proof and that makes a lot of sense. I arrived at the correct answer, but possibly for an invalid reason and I would appreciate a critique of the approach -- i.e. is there a flaw in my logic?
sqrt(2), sqrt(3), and sqrt(5) are all irrational. They're obviously not sequential terms in an arithmetic sequence, but the rules stated that there are possibly unlisted terms between these. As these are irrational numbers, there is no way to define intermediate terms that would satisfy this.
That's it. That's my logic. Is it flawed? Another way of asking this: Do three irrational numbers exist that do not share a common factor yet are part of the same arithmetic sequence?
Log in to reply
Sure: pi, pi + e, pi + 2e work (these are consecutive, even).
If you want the difference to be an integer, pi, pi+1, and pi+2 are also irrational.
There's no way to contradict this explanation. I get it. But I can't see why my logic is false: let's say all three numbers (√2; √3 and √5) are points in a line (because they are!) And the question is: is there a value that we can add to the first point, arrives exactly at the second point and ends exactly at the third point? I think yes. Because I can pick a infinitely small number. Where did I went wrong with this?
Log in to reply
You can't just say "I pick an infinitely small number"; numbers in the real number system are actual points you can find on the line, so you actually have to name a number. (This is why in calculus we don't just pick some arbitrary variable to be infinitely small, but have to go through finagling with limits and say something like x when the limit of x goes to 0.)
Assuming that 2 , 3 and 5 are number of an arithmetic progression with a common difference d . We can assume that d > 0 without loss of generality. Then the following system of equations is true.
{ 2 + m d = 3 3 + n d = 5 . . . ( 1 ) . . . ( 2 ) , where m and n are positive integers.
Then we have d = m 3 − 2 = n 5 − 3 and that:
3 − 2 5 − 3 ( 5 − 3 ) ( 3 + 2 ) 1 5 − 3 + 1 0 − 6 = m n = m n = m n
Since LHS is irrational and RHS is rational, there is no solution to the above equation and therefore the assumption is false . No , 2 , 3 and 5 are not numbers of an arithmetic progression.
Let's recall the formula for the arithmetic progression: x i = a + b ∗ i . Which means that if we interpret this formula as a function of i , then all members of the progression are equally spaced laying on the straight line, where a is the vertical shift and b is the slope of this line.
2 , 3 and 5 are the values of the function y = x . So, the question is, is it possible to intersect parabola with the straight line in 3 points. The answer is obviously not.
I feel that this proof is somewhat informal. There are other solutions here which are much more logically consistent then mine but they are based on a different ideas. So, I am wondering, how this idea can be turned into a solid mathematical proof.
Seems solid to me
Given f ( x ) = m x + b and g ( x ) = x , try proving that f and g do not contain more than 2 intersections. Intersections appear where f ( x ) = g ( x ) .
f ( x ) = g ( x )
m x + b = x
( m x ) 2 + b = x // square both sides
Equation is quadratic. Maximum number of solutions is 2.
Hmm... I don't know though. What I wrote wasn't very self-satisfying, in my opinion. Hope it quells some doubts though.
Log in to reply
Thank you, Johnathan!
That's what I feel when it comes to geometrical intuitions. They are very powerful and satisfying, but also sometimes I can't convince myself that I've translated the problem to geometry in a right way.
If 2 , 3 , 5 is arithmetic progression, then must 5 − 3 3 − 2 = 1
( 3 − 2 ) ( 5 + 3 ) = 2
1 5 + 1 = 1 0 + 6
16 + 2 1 5 = 16 + 2 6 0
1 5 = 6 0 , this is wrong.
So, 2 , 3 , 5 not an arithmetic progression.
The terms need not be consecutive so that initial fraction doesn't have to be equal to 1
If we let
a
≈
1
.
0
4
6
1
6
5
9
d
≈
0
.
4
6
2
5
4
7
r
≈
0
.
9
3
7
3
6
4
Then
(
a
+
d
)
r
≈
2
(
a
+
2
d
)
r
2
≈
3
(
a
+
4
d
)
r
4
≈
5
hmm...
Note: The form is ( a + d n ) r n where n is a positive integer, while a , d both can be irrational. For this problem, r = 1 , for which there is no solution.
What detail is that?
Log in to reply
Made a mistake with a more general arithmetico-geometric sequence. See my revised note.
Log in to reply
a , d , r are all rational numbers, then the latter 3 equations cannot be true.
Log in to reply
@Pi Han Goh – If we let r = 1 , then we have the problem as posted. Obviously no linear combination of rational numbers can come up with irrational square roots, but we're assuming that a , d can be irrational. But if r = 1 , then no solution exists.
Log in to reply
@Michael Mendrin – If you are assuming that a , d are rational, then why did you write (the values of) a and d as rational numbers?
Log in to reply
@Pi Han Goh – What I am saying is that, for example, if a , d are both rational, obviously a + d cannot ever equal 2 . This posted problem asks if 2 , 3 , 5 could be in terms in any arithmetic sequence, so at least a , d both cannot be rational. But even if they both are not rational, a solution still doesn't exist, and we see multiple proofs of it here. But if we include powers of r , where r can be irrational also, then a solution does exist.
The only thing that must be not only rational, but a positive integer, is n
Log in to reply
@Michael Mendrin – Oh, so your first equations in your solution should be:
a
≈
1
.
0
4
6
1
6
5
9
d
≈
0
.
4
6
2
5
4
7
r
≈
0
.
9
3
7
3
6
4
Okay then.
So you're saying that, while they cannot be in AP or GP, (as I showed in a comment to my posted solution), they can be in AGP. That's a curious result ....
Log in to reply
If there are 3 unknowns and 3 equations, you'd think there'd be a solution, but it turns out that for n = 1 , 2 , 3 , there isn't one. That's the hiccup that I found curious.
This is similar to saying that: Can 2^2, 3^2 and 5^2 all be numbers in Arithmetic Progession?
Basically, anything to do with manupilating powers of a number will increase and decrease depending on the number.
Eg. 1^2=1 2^2=4 3^2=9 4^2=16 5^2=25
And on an on and on... No common difference
They all need to be whole numbers?
Can’t we just assume that they can’t constitute three numbers in an arithmetic series because the irrationals are densed along the real axis therefore there’s no foreseenable constant gap between them?
As {(√3-√2)/(√5-√3)} is irrational, it can't be in AP.
Problem Loading...
Note Loading...
Set Loading...
By contradiction, suppose 2 = a + n d , 3 = a + m d , 5 = a + r d for some reals a , d and integers n , m , r . Then
3 − 2 = ( m − n ) d ⟹ m − n = d 3 − 2 and 5 − 3 = ( r − m ) d ⟹ r − m = d 5 − 3 , so
m − n r − m = 3 − 2 5 − 3 = ( 5 − 3 ) ( 3 + 2 ) = 1 5 + 1 0 − 6 − 3 .
But as n , m , r are integers, m − n r − m must be rational, yet 1 5 + 1 0 − 6 − 3 is irrational. So by contradiction, 2 , 3 and 5 cannot be elements of the same arithmetic sequence.
Added proof of the irrationality of 1 5 + 1 0 − 6 − 3 : As the difference between an irrational and a rational number is irrational, if suffices to prove that 1 5 + 1 0 − 6 is irrational. By contradiction, suppose that 1 5 + 1 0 − 6 = a for some rational number a . Then 1 5 + 1 0 = a + 6 , and upon squaring both sides we find that
1 5 + 1 0 + 2 1 5 0 = a 2 + 6 + 2 a 6 ⟹ 1 9 − a 2 = 2 a 6 − 2 2 5 × 6 = ( 2 a − 1 0 ) 6 .
Now 1 9 − a 2 is rational, as is 2 a − 1 0 , but since 6 is irrational ( 2 a − 1 0 ) 6 is also irrational, (being the product of a non-zero rational and an irrational number), thus providing the desired contradiction. (Note that 1 5 + 1 0 ≈ 7 and 6 ≈ 2 . 4 , so a ≈ 4 . 6 and thus 2 a − 1 0 = 0 , satisfying the non-zero condition.)