An algebra problem by Calvin Lin

Algebra Level 5

Consider all pairs of positive reals subject to

1 x + 8 y = 1. \frac{1}{x} + \frac{8}{y} = 1.

To 2 decimal places, what is the minimum value of

x + y + x 2 + y 2 ? x+y + \sqrt{ x^2+y^2} ?


The answer is 26.00.

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4 solutions

Karthik Kannan
Jun 11, 2014

Let x = R cos θ x=R\cos \theta and y = R sin θ y=R\sin \theta

As both x > 0 x>0 and y > 0 y>0 we shall assume that R > 0 R>0 and 0 < θ < π 2 0<\theta<\displaystyle\frac{\pi}{2}

Substituting the above values in the given relation:

1 R cos θ + 8 R sin θ = 1 \displaystyle\frac{1}{R\cos \theta}+\displaystyle\frac{8}{R\sin \theta}=1

Thus R = sin θ + 8 cos θ sin θ cos θ R=\displaystyle\frac{\sin \theta+8\cos \theta}{\sin \theta\cos \theta}

So substituting the above values in the expression whose minimum value has to be found we get:

R ( sin θ + cos θ + 1 ) R\left( \sin \theta+\cos \theta +1\right)

= sin θ + 8 cos θ sin θ cos θ ( sin θ + cos θ + 1 ) =\displaystyle\frac{\sin \theta+8\cos \theta}{\sin \theta\cos \theta}\left( \sin \theta+\cos \theta +1\right)

Now let the value of the given expression be f ( θ ) f(\theta) . Expanding and rearranging we get:

f ( θ ) = 9 + 1 + sin θ cos θ + 8 1 + cos θ sin θ f(\theta)=9+\displaystyle\frac{1+\sin \theta}{\cos \theta}+8\displaystyle\frac{1+\cos \theta}{\sin \theta}

Converting to half angle:

f ( θ ) = 9 + 1 + tan θ 2 1 tan θ 2 + 8 tan θ 2 f(\theta)=9+\displaystyle\frac{1+\tan \frac{\theta}{2}}{1-\tan \frac{\theta}{2}}+\displaystyle\frac{8}{\tan \frac{\theta}{2}}

So f ( θ ) = 8 + 2 ( 1 1 tan θ 2 + 4 tan θ 2 ) f(\theta)=8+2\left( \displaystyle\frac{1}{1-\tan \frac{\theta}{2}}+\displaystyle\frac{4}{\tan \frac{\theta}{2}}\right)

Now again we can put tan θ 2 = t \tan \frac{\theta}{2}=t to obtain:

8 + 2 ( 1 1 t + 4 t ) 8+2\left( \displaystyle\frac{1}{1-t}+\displaystyle\frac{4}{t}\right)

Differentiating w.r.t. t t and equating it to 0 0 we get the following equation:

3 t 2 8 t + 4 = 0 3t^{2}-8t+4=0

whose roots are t = 2 3 t=\displaystyle\frac{2}{3} and t = 2 t=2

Hence tan θ 2 = 2 3 \tan \frac{\theta}{2}=\displaystyle\frac{2}{3} or tan θ 2 = 2 \tan \frac{\theta}{2}=2

However note that tan θ 2 = 2 \tan \frac{\theta}{2}=2 is rejected because if it were true then θ \theta would be greater than π 2 \displaystyle\frac{\pi}{2} .

Hence the minimum value must occur at tan θ 2 = 2 3 \tan \frac{\theta}{2}=\displaystyle\frac{2}{3}

Substituting we obtain 26.00 \boxed{26.00}

  1. Using AM-GM, x + y + \sqrt{x^2+y^2} \geq (2 + \sqrt{2})\sqrt{xy}.
  2. Using GM-HM, \sqrt{x\frac{y}{8}} \geq \frac{2}{\frac{1}{x} + \frac{8}{y}}.
From 1 and 2 and using the given information, x + y + \sqrt{x^2+y^2} \geq 8(1 + \sqrt{2}) = 19.31.

Can someone please explain the error in this?

Ashutosh Panigrahy - 6 years, 11 months ago

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My apologies for the formatting blunder. It was my first post.

  1. Using AM-GM,

    x + y + x 2 + y 2 ( 2 + 2 ) x y x + y + \sqrt{x^2+y^2} \geq (2 + \sqrt{2})\sqrt{xy} .

  2. Using GM-HM,

    x y 8 2 1 x + 8 y \sqrt{x\frac{y}{8}} \geq \frac{2}{\frac{1}{x} + \frac{8}{y}} .

From 1 and 2 and using the given information,

x + y + x 2 + y 2 8 ( 1 + 2 ) = 19.31 x + y + \sqrt{x^2+y^2} \geq 8(1 + \sqrt{2}) = 19.31 .

Can someone please explain the error in this?

Ashutosh Panigrahy - 6 years, 11 months ago

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Note that when you are applying AM-GM the equality case is x = y x=y whereas when you apply GM-HM the equality case is x = y 8 x=\dfrac{y}{8} . However this is incorrect since both the equality cases must be the same.

Karthik Kannan - 6 years, 11 months ago

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@Karthik Kannan sorry didnt get you ........ @Karthik Kannan

Abhinav Raichur - 6 years, 11 months ago

If we take y=20/3 and x= -5 the value of the above expression is 10. Why isn't this a valid solution? Needless to say these values of x and y satisfy the condition 1/x + 8/y= 1

aaryaman patel - 6 years, 12 months ago

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Note the condition that x and y are positive

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 12 months ago

Can you please please tell me the generalized form of doing such simplifications using trigonometry or polar coordinates? WHat is this called? How do we know when this is to be used? Thanks in advance @Karthik Kannan

Jayakumar Krishnan - 6 years, 12 months ago

I used Lagrange Multipliers to get the solution x=4.3333332229288, y=10.399999729024 we get minimum value as 26

Atharva Sarage - 5 years, 7 months ago

@Calvin Lin ?

aaryaman patel - 6 years, 12 months ago
Calvin Lin Staff
Jun 10, 2014

This is not a complete solution. For the complete generalized solution, see Unravelling an Inequality Problem .

Consider the geometric interpretation of x + y + x 2 + y 2 x + y + \sqrt{x^2 + y^2} . The natural one is to set up a right angled triangle with legs of x x and y y and a hypotenuse of x 2 + y 2 \sqrt{x^2+y^2} . We are thus after the perimeter of this triangle.

Let O = ( 0 , 0 ) O = (0,0) , A = ( x , 0 ) A = (x, 0) and B = ( 0 , y ) B = (0, y ) . Then, the given condition is equivalent to saying that the point P = ( 1 , 8 ) P=(1, 8) lies on the line segment A B AB . This characterizes all such triangles.

Consider the circle with center ( 13 , 13 ) (13, 13) and radius 13. This circle is tangential to the x-axis, the y-axis and passes through the point ( 1 , 8 ) (1, 8) .

Claim: The perimeter is minimized when A B AB is tangential to this circle at P P . Proof: See Unravelling an Inequality Problem .

In particular, the minimum is achieved when x = 13 3 x = \frac{13}{3} and y = 52 5 y = \frac{ 52}{5} . The value is 2 × 13 = 26 2 \times 13 = 26 .


How would you generalize this solution? Where did 13 come from?

How did you guess that the circle with center (13,13) and radius 13 will pass through the point (1,8)?

rahul ranjan - 7 years ago

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@Calvin Lin I've also been thinking about the solution to this problem since the last five days. Can you please provide a full solution to this problem by your method?

Samuel Jones - 6 years, 8 months ago

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I've written up the generalized version here , with an explanation of how to obtain the circle, and why we want the line to be tangential at the point P.

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 8 months ago

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@Calvin Lin Thanks a lot!

Samuel Jones - 6 years, 8 months ago

How do such amazing methods come to your minds...??

Rajsuryan Singh - 6 years, 11 months ago

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In this case, I has the benefit of knowing how I wanted to set up the problem. This question arose from me studying the above geometric configuration, and then creating the algebraic inequality.

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 11 months ago

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Sir i am preparing for jee its a competitive exam in india how to improve my problem solving skills in maths how to get the ideas strike to me within the time constraint i know i have to practice but a tip on how to practice and how to think new methods will be highly appreciated..

Rajsuryan Singh - 6 years, 11 months ago

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@Rajsuryan Singh You can check out the practice section, which helps you develop specific skills in each of the topics. We will also be building out exercises targeted at JEE, over the next few months. That should be extremely helpful for you to work with.

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 11 months ago

YES! Best problem ever. :D

Finn Hulse - 7 years ago

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What's great about this problem?

What was your approach to solving it? It's somewhat non-trivial (even calculus approaches get somewhat tedious).

Calvin Lin Staff - 7 years ago

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You should know by now that I'm a sucker for a good maximum/minimum problem. :D

Finn Hulse - 7 years ago

Darn, this problem was harder than I thought. I got the wrong answer, but the system thought I was correct because of its weird rounding problem.

Daniel Liu - 7 years ago

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@Daniel Liu Yeah. Did you use analytic geometry like Calvin or a more blunt approach like me?

Finn Hulse - 7 years ago

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@Finn Hulse I actually tried to find the minimum based on the fact that ( x , y ) (x,y) are the coordinates of a hyperbola. However, that didn't really go anywhere so I kinda just guessed the value.

Daniel Liu - 7 years ago

I switched to polar coordinates, then the second equation is equivalent to:

r ( 1 + cos θ + sin θ ) = ( 1 cos θ + 8 sin θ ) ( 1 + cos θ + sin θ ) \displaystyle r(1+\cos\theta+\sin\theta)=\left(\frac{1}{\cos\theta}+\frac{8}{\sin\theta}\right)(1+\cos\theta+\sin\theta)

= 9 + 1 cos θ + 8 sin θ + 8 cos θ sin θ + sin θ cos θ \displaystyle =9+\frac{1}{\cos\theta}+\frac{8}{\sin\theta}+\frac{8\cos\theta}{\sin\theta}+\frac{\sin\theta}{\cos\theta}

To minimise the above expression, Calculus isn't the best choice and I feel this expression can be easily handled through the use of some inequality but I suck at them so I have no idea. (Sorry, I used W|A to find the minimum. :3 )

Pranav Arora - 7 years ago

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I too used the same approach.

However I further simplified it as follows:

f ( θ ) = 9 + 1 + sin θ cos θ + 8 1 + cos θ sin θ f(\theta)=9+\displaystyle\frac{1+\sin \theta}{\cos \theta}+8\displaystyle\frac{1+\cos \theta}{\sin \theta}

Converting to half angle:

f ( θ ) = 9 + 1 + tan θ 2 1 tan θ 2 + 8 tan θ 2 f(\theta)=9+\displaystyle\frac{1+\tan \frac{\theta}{2}}{1-\tan \frac{\theta}{2}}+\displaystyle\frac{8}{\tan \frac{\theta}{2}}

So f ( θ ) = 8 + 2 ( 1 1 tan θ 2 + 4 tan θ 2 ) f(\theta)=8+2\left( \displaystyle\frac{1}{1-\tan \frac{\theta}{2}}+\displaystyle\frac{4}{\tan \frac{\theta}{2}}\right)

Now again we can put tan θ 2 = t \tan \frac{\theta}{2}=t to obtain:

8 + 2 ( 1 1 t + 4 t ) 8+2\left( \displaystyle\frac{1}{1-t}+\displaystyle\frac{4}{t}\right)

Now the minimum of the above can be easily found using calculus.

Karthik Kannan - 7 years ago

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Excellent! :D

Any ideas about the inequality approach? :)

Pranav Arora - 7 years ago

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@Pranav Arora If you use Karthik's transformation (which is a great insight), it suffices to show that

1 1 t + 4 t 9 \frac{1}{1-t} + \frac{4}{t} \geq 9

This follows immediately from Cauchy Schwarz, because

( 1 1 t + 4 t ) [ ( 1 t ) + t ] [ 1 + 4 ] 2 = 9. ( \frac{1}{1-t} + \frac{4}{t} ) [ ( 1-t) + t] \geq [ \sqrt{1} + \sqrt{4} ] ^2 = 9.

Calvin Lin Staff - 7 years ago

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@Calvin Lin That is nice, thank you! :)

Pranav Arora - 7 years ago

@Calvin Lin Oh, yes Sir this is much better than the calculus approach! : )

Karthik Kannan - 7 years ago

@Pranav Arora No, really no idea about the inequality approach.I don't know much about inequalities.

Karthik Kannan - 7 years ago

Oh nice. I didn't think of polar coordinates as there were no square terms. I like your further substitution, which simplified the expression. Can you post this as a separate solution? Thanks!

Calvin Lin Staff - 7 years ago

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@Calvin Lin Sir, I have posted a solution below.

Karthik Kannan - 7 years ago

Can you please please tell me the generalized form of doing such simplifications using trigonometry or polar coordinates? WHat is this called? How do we know when this is to be used? Thanks in advance @Pranav Arora

Jayakumar Krishnan - 6 years, 12 months ago

x has to be greater than 1 and y has to be greater than 8, and as these are positive ints by trial 10 and 5 give the min value. rest after a point u see value of the given eq just increases

Kushagr Kakkar - 7 years ago

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Note that the minimum doesn't occur at 10 and 5. They actually occur at fractional values, which I have listed above.

Calvin Lin Staff - 7 years ago

By the mean inequalities, x 2 + y 2 a + b 2 x + y + x 2 + y 2 ( x + y ) ( 1 + 1 2 ) \sqrt{x^2+y^2}\ge \frac{a+b}{\sqrt{2}}\implies x+y+\sqrt{x^2+y^2}\ge (x+y)(1+\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}) And the equality holds if and only if x = y x=y , given that this extremum is reachable. It seems reachable since everything is defined when x = y x=y and we also have x = y = 9 x + y + x 2 + y 2 18 + 9 2 x=y=9\implies x+y+\sqrt{x^2+y^2}\ge 18+9\sqrt{2} , which is about 30.73. Could anyone explain anything that is wrong about my reasoning? Thanks.

mathh mathh - 7 years ago

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While the first equality is true, it need not be true that x + y 18 x + y \geq 18 . For example, in the solution above, we have x + y 15.7 x + y \approx 15.7 .

Note: To type Latex, you need to use the brackets \ ( \ ) instead of $$.

Calvin Lin Staff - 7 years ago

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To make it more clear what I mean, x 2 + y 2 x + y 2 x + y + x 2 + y 2 x + y + x + y 2 \sqrt{x^2+y^2}\ge \frac{x+y}{\sqrt{2}}\implies x+y+\sqrt{x^2+y^2}\ge x+y+\frac{x+y}{\sqrt{2}} And the equality in the former is reached when x = y = 9 x=y=9 , hence the equality in the latter is reached this way as well. Therefore the minimum is reached when x = y = 9 18 + 9 2 x=y=9\implies 18+9\sqrt{2} is the minimum value. What is wrong with this? :(

mathh mathh - 6 years, 12 months ago

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@Mathh Mathh While it is true that

x + y + x 2 + y 2 ( x + y ) ( 1 + 1 2 ) x + y + \sqrt{ x^2 + y^2} \geq (x + y) ( 1 + \frac{ 1 }{ \sqrt{2}})

it is not true that

( x + y ) ( 1 + 1 2 ) 18 ( 1 + 1 2 ) (x + y) ( 1 + \frac{ 1 }{ \sqrt{2}}) \geq 18 ( 1 + \frac{ 1 }{ \sqrt{2}} )

You have yet to show that x + y 18 x + y \geq 18 , which is not a true statement. For example, we could have x = 5 , y = 10 x = 5, y = 10 which gives us x + y = 10 x + y = 10 . In fact, we have

5 + 10 + 5 2 + 1 0 2 < 18 ( 1 + 1 2 ) 5 + 10 + \sqrt{ 5^2 + 10^2 } < 18 ( 1 + \frac{ 1 }{ \sqrt{2}} )

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 12 months ago

Shouldn't y be equal to 52/5 ?

Arif Ahmed - 6 years, 10 months ago

SIR YOU ARE GREAT ......MY UTMOST REVERENCE @Calvin Lin

ashutosh mahapatra - 6 years, 8 months ago

minimum is achieved when x = 13 3 x=\frac {13}{3} and y = 52 5 y=\frac{52}{5} . Just a small typo.

Bob Kadylo - 4 years, 7 months ago

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Oh thanks! I've updated the solution.

Calvin Lin Staff - 4 years, 7 months ago

this is really nice.better than the calculus solution.

Srikanth Tupurani - 1 year, 9 months ago
Terrell Bombb
Jan 5, 2017

should the answer be exactly 26.00? i reasoned by thinking that if i minimize (x+y) then i will be able to automatically minimize sqrt(x^2 + y^2). thus, expressing y in terms of x then replace y in (x+y) with it, we get (x^2 - 2x -7)/(1-x). we take the minima which equals 1+2sqrt(2). then solving for y, we get 8+2sqrt(2). finally, substituting the values of x and y in x + y + sqrt(x^2 + y^2) = 26.14...

The answer is exactly 26.

No, it is not true that minimizing x + y x+y will (under the given conditions) minimize x 2 + y 2 x^2 + y^2 . You can compare your values to the solutions above.

Calvin Lin Staff - 4 years, 5 months ago
Ayan Jain
Feb 24, 2015

Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm getting answer as 26.14 Sorry for not using formats, I'm unable to do so properly.

1/x + 8/y = 1

8x + y = xy

(x -1)(y - 8) - 8 = 0

(x - 1)(y - 8) = 8

(m)(n) = 8 (Let m, n)

For lowest sum value, m and n should be equal to square root. So x = 2sqrt{2} + 1; y = 2sqrt{2} + 8

Putting the values, we get 12 + 10sqrt2 = 26.14

There is no reason why "the minimum of m + n = x + y 9 m+n = x+y - 9 " must lead to "the minimium of x + y + x 2 + y 2 x + y + \sqrt{x^2+y^2} ." At no point in time did you address the existence of the x 2 + y 2 \sqrt{ x^2 + y^2 } term (other than including it in the final calculations.

Calvin Lin Staff - 6 years, 3 months ago

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Ah I see. Thank you.

Ayan Jain - 6 years, 3 months ago

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