An oscillating block with air

A hollow, metal box is filled with gas and hung from the ceiling of a laboratory by a perfectly elastic spring. Furthermore, the laboratory is held under a perfect vacuum.

At time zero, you pull the box down and let it go, setting it to oscillate. What will happen to the box after a long time?

The box will keep on oscillating The box will slow down gradually and stop eventually

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26 solutions

Guillermo Zamudio
Jul 17, 2017

Relevant wiki: Conservation of Energy

Without any information about energy losses in the spring. The box should oscillate forever. It can be argued that the molecules in the gas, vibrate and and the gas absorbs energy in the form of heat. But how much energy can the gas absorb? If it had been a liquid, would it at some point boil? It feels as the question expected a specific answer, but for a correct universal solution more details are required. Nice problem though

The problem doesn't say a"perfect spring" so I think some hysteresis in the spring (even in the elastic region) will dissipate some energy, just as collisions of the air molecules with the inside of the box will slowly damp the thing. But the effects of that are tiny. I wish the poser of the question had given a rationale for his choice of answer

Gary Scarr - 3 years, 10 months ago

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Quite so. The usual way of these type of questions is looking at the major effects (like the mass, spring, and gravity) this question has eliminated almost all real effects so that the only ones left are the normally negligible ones. It is very much a question to me if the energy dissipation into the gas is more significant that losses in the spring and/or its support.

Ed Sirett - 3 years, 10 months ago

The problem clearly states "perfectly elastic spring"...maybe they corrected that after the original posting. Yes the effects of compression/expansion and friction with the sides of the box are tiny but that's the whole point of this problem. Any friction from any source will eventually cause the box to come to rest (or at least what appears to be rest).

Duff Harrold - 3 years, 10 months ago

Doesn't "elastic spring" mean that no energy is dissipated by the spring? If not that, then what would "elastic" mean in that context?

Andy Schweig - 3 years, 10 months ago

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Yes, by being elastic it means no energy is dissipated.

Rohit Gupta - 3 years, 10 months ago

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Perhaps elastic was intended to mean no energy was being dissipated, but "elastic" in the materials science sense only means "not undergoing permanent deformation". Some materials (rubber is the best known example) can still dissipate energy within the elastic region because of hysteresis. I think you've changed the wording to "perfectly elastic " this doesn't eliminate hysteresis. If "Assume there is no loss in energy in the spring" was intended, it should have been stated as such.

Gary Scarr - 3 years, 6 months ago

I think a liquid would also heat up a little, but the density is magnitudes higher and so the effect magnitude lower. Consider a 1kg box contain mostly water by mass. Moving at a peak velocity of +/- 1 m/s. This has about 0.5J of energy. You'd need about 8,400 such movement to completely slow and stop to warm the water 1K. Notwithstanding the a warmed box will begin to radiate its heat to the surrounds.

Ed Sirett - 3 years, 10 months ago

Well as they say, work done by the internal forces are zero ,so keeping it simple. Consider the box to be a closed system, now collision of atoms with the surface of box is cancelled out as the probability of collision is same. Then it should keep oscillating forever. Right ! Didn't understood why the box will stop oscillating?

Anisha Mittal - 3 years, 8 months ago

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There would be net heating due to friction of gas moving along the inner sides of the box. This would lead to loss of the bulk kinetic energy of the system.

Duff Harrold - 3 years, 8 months ago

Assuming the labratory is on earth, the kinetic energy generared by the earth's rotation should be enough to overcome the energy lost through friction (its a vacuum, friction should be ~0) No?

Tyler Parks - 3 years, 10 months ago

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Don't know, maybe there is friction. But produced by the gas inside the hollow box due the inertial opposition to cyclic change of acceleration.

The other thing is that the gas would be heated to the point that its energy output by radiation compensates the energy input by motion.

Marc salat vilardaga - 3 years, 10 months ago

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Agreed. This scenario looks at the sort of mechanical effects that we are normally accustomed to neglecting because they are magnitudes smaller that some other effect. I.e. The answer to how much kinetic energy would the apparatus impact the floor with when the spring breaks is not in the same league than how much k.e. is lost in one oscillation of the box to the gas inside. With air in the room the principal energy loss would be to the air around the box and even that would be a magnitude or two less than the energy transferred between gravitation p.e., k.e. and spring strain energy during each cycle of movement. Nevertheless there are some effects which are in an even lower league or their time scales are so slow or quick that they don't effect the system, such as changes in the gravitation field (due to lunar+solar tidal) forces or moving objects out side the room. The list of possible finite but tiny interactions with the real world is endless. What about changing illumination on the experiment and photo pressure?

Ed Sirett - 3 years, 10 months ago

I thought the box would slow down because each time it changes direction, the inertia of the mass of the air would always be against the force caused by the spring. Constantly accelerating the air in different directions would use energy. Feel free if there's a misconception.

Gary Liu - 3 years, 10 months ago

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Interesting point. By itself, accelerating the air would not damp the oscillations. Try two thought experiments. Inside the box is a weight attached by two vertical rigid rods to the box. The weight must also be accelerated, but it won't damp the oscillations, just change the amplitude and period. Now attach the weight by two vertical perfect springs. Now the motion will be more complex, because you have two coupled oscillators, but the oscillation will not be damped, because there is nowhere else for the energy to go. The key point is that the gas gives the oscillating system a way to lose energy by heating the gas.

Walter Neilsen-Steinhardt - 3 years, 10 months ago

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You're right haha, there is no place to lose energy in my explanation. Thank you!

Gary Liu - 3 years, 10 months ago

The liquid would boil most likely - no pressure in vacuum, so it should have boiled already without much heating to reach the equilibrium in the box.

Gediminas Sadzius - 3 years, 10 months ago
Rick Montgomery
Jul 18, 2017

The gas is a red herring. Friction within the spring causes some of the kinetic energy to be dissipated as heat, and the machine runs down. Perpetual motion much?

I would disagree, the spring is stated to be elastic which implies there is no hysteresis and thus no energy loss there. The gas, however, will be forced to compress slightly at the extremes of the motion which will ultimately lead to energy loss as it heats up and radiates energy

Richard Jones - 3 years, 10 months ago

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That is definitely NOT what elastic means!

Rick Montgomery - 3 years, 10 months ago

If we assume an ideal spring (for those that went to physics class) the gas is the main source of energy loss. The gas will compress and relax (ever so slightly) with the acceleration and slowly heat (albeit, maybe a few degrees at most).

Ziggy Zaleskas - 3 years, 10 months ago

The gas is a red herring, means???

Prayas Rautray - 3 years, 10 months ago

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It means it's a meaningless distraction, a "clue" that does not lead to the answer. The expression comes from a story about a smuggler who crossed the border every day with a wheelbarrow full of red herrings and the customs officials thought he was smuggling some kind of contraband inside the fish. It turned out he was smuggling wheelbarrows.

Rick Montgomery - 3 years, 10 months ago

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I was mistaken about the origin of the expression but not the meaning. Look it up in Wikipedia for the apparent origin, and google "smuggling wheelbarrows" for the other story. :-)

Rick Montgomery - 3 years, 10 months ago

I'm sure this is correct. Stretching and compressing the spring must use energy, dissipated as heat.

Ian Chappel - 3 years, 10 months ago

How can the gas be a "red herring"? Even if we assume that there is no energy loss from the spring itself nor air friction against the box in a vacuum, energy still must be used to accelerate the motion of the gas in opposite directions as the box moves. The gas is the only thing that slows down the box.

Robert DeLisle - 3 years, 10 months ago

Thanks for the snark Rick. Perfectly elastic means that kinetic and potential energies are perfectly interconverted as the box oscillates. This is not a real spring...it's a theoretical spring. A perfect vacuum is theoretical as well so they're asking us to suspend disbelief for the sake of this thought experiment. The gas is not a red herring...it's the whole point. I do agree with you that it would slow down because of KE being dissipated as heat but not from their magically perfect spring. The friction of the moving gas against the inside surfaces of the metal box is the culprit here.

Duff Harrold - 3 years, 8 months ago

A lot of wrong answers here. This one is correct.

Matthew Helm - 3 years, 10 months ago
Gediminas Sadzius
Jul 17, 2017

I think the gas warms up at the extreme ends of the spring as the kinetic energy of the molecules converts into heat according to 1/2·m·v² = 3/2·k·T, where T is increasing due to molecular collisions. The spring does work on the gas to accelerate while the heat gets radiated to surroundings and that is how the energy charge of the initial pull of the spring gets gradually dissipated.

Assume the spring is perfect, i.e. free of internal frictional losses, that the "gas" in the statement of the problem is "air" as in the illustration, and that the metal box is plain, un-insulated. The air in the box will be compressed at the bottom and at the top in alternation as the box oscillates. Because air is not a perfect gas, compression causes its temperature to rise. Turbulent gross movements of the air will heat it further. Energy for heating comes from the total K + P energy of the system. The heat will be transferred to the box, warming it, and the box will radiate heat away as IR, draining energy irreversibly from the system. The oscillations will gradually dampen and decrease in amplitude until the magnitude of the excursions is lost in the thermal noise of the system.

Howard Ritter - 3 years, 10 months ago

A 'more complete explanation' is not necessary.

Peter Ruggles - 3 years, 10 months ago

Even if the spring is perfectly eIastic. I think the intent here is that the gas will maintain its inertia and will collide with the container as the box moves up and down continually dissipating heat until the spring stops.

Matthew Brutlag - 3 years, 10 months ago

Honestly I don't see any outside force heating the gas or cooling it, for that matter. If you have an elastic spring there should be no frictional losses and it should oscillate forever.

Albert Kirsch - 3 years, 10 months ago

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There is no outside force heating the gas, but the oscillating box will heat it. Think of the top and bottom of the box alternately increasing the pressure on the gas. This will cause sound waves in the gas that must be dissipated as heat.

Walter Neilsen-Steinhardt - 3 years, 10 months ago

What would be your answer if instead of air we have a half filled (with water) box?

Rohit Gupta - 3 years, 10 months ago

A spring may be elastic yet not perfectly elastic. Resistance in the spring will concert mechanical action to heat, eventually damping the spring to no oscillation.

The transfer of spring heat to the gas may exist, but will not be impactful. Any heating of the gas would not result in any decrease in density because the bus is sealed. No buoyancy increase.

Kradak Thomas - 3 years, 10 months ago

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Even if the spring is perfectly elastic (which were the actual intentions), the block will still stop oscillating. When the box is shaken, the temperature of the air inside will increase and the kinetic energy will convert into heat energy and escapes from the block slowly and gradually.

Rohit Gupta - 3 years, 10 months ago
Kaushik Chandra
Jul 7, 2017

Due to the random motion of air molecules inside the box, the box finally stops if the laboratory is at a gravity - free region.

If the box is in a region with gravitational force then the box will stop more easily.

Everyone appears to forgetting the impact of gravity acting as a force within the system, inevitably resulting in cessation of the oscillation

Graham Blom - 3 years, 10 months ago

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I don't think gravity would cause cessation of the system since the conversation of gravitational pe to ke is perfect if done under just gravity. I think they intend the air to be a real gas, but it's an odd question in many ways since they are wanting the spring to be considered elastic but other components to have friction or other loss.

Thomas Greenwood - 3 years, 10 months ago

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Gravitational forces on molecules closer to earth will be more.

Kaushik Chandra - 3 years, 10 months ago

...and also the internal friction of the spring and vibration losses to the support structure, all small effects but non zero.

Ed Sirett - 3 years, 11 months ago

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Yeah, they didn't say the spring was perfectly elastic or that the support was perfectly rigid but I'll bet the answer they were looking for was Tony's

John Warner - 3 years, 10 months ago

Random motion would average out over time so wouldn't stop the box. They don't define enough about how you are supposed to treat the system.

Thomas Greenwood - 3 years, 10 months ago

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The box has a velocity and that leads to unequal forces acting on the walls by the molecules.

Kaushik Chandra - 3 years, 10 months ago

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...which leads to a slight increase in the average speed of the gas molecules (i.e the gas warms up a tiny bit).

Ed Sirett - 3 years, 10 months ago

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@Ed Sirett Yeah , with increase in velocity, the Kinetic Energy increases for some molecules. However, the net energy of the system is constant.

Kaushik Chandra - 3 years, 10 months ago

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@Kaushik Chandra Indeed the net energy of the system is constant but some of it end up as thermal energy in the gas inside the box. Classical mechanics says there are (incredibly small) pressure waves inside the box which travel up and down at the speed of sound and eventually attenuate into the average molecular speed increasing (very very slightly). Statistical mechanics would say that there is a localised sub population of the gas molecules with an increased velocity and this extra energy will diffuse into the rest. In both cases the energy is not lost but become unrecoverable as work (in the thermodynamic sense).

Ed Sirett - 3 years, 10 months ago

But it's not the random nature of the molecules that causes this but the pressure increase decrease cycle of the gas.

Thomas Greenwood - 3 years, 10 months ago

No, the molecules in the box are at maximum entropy, presuming the box is at the same temperature as the environment. They will remain as an isotropic gas with that temperature.

Liam Roche - 3 years, 10 months ago
Brayden Halverson
Jul 18, 2017

The way I solved it was by remembering that the gas will accelerate at a slower pace than the solid therefore oscillating at a different frequency, dampening the overall motion. Where the energy goes is likely heat, but knowing that isn't necessary to answer the question in my opinion.

Jeffrey Smith
Jul 19, 2017

The spring ... due to elastic deformation ... while oscillating is experiencing hysteresis energy losses ... and the air within the cylinder is experiencing minuscule compressions and expansions due to sinusoidal accelerations ... this too produces small amounts of adiabatic heating and resultant kinetic energy losses to the system

The spring is stated to be perfectly elastic, which I take to mean no hysteresis. But the air compressions will cause heating as you state, which will be radiated off. Since total energy has to be constant, the loss of energy means loss of kinetic energy.

Paul Tibbs - 3 years, 10 months ago
Daniel Langstaff
Jul 20, 2017

Complications: air in box has resonance, and compressibility, and thermal losses. Box has resonance and compressibility and losses. Spring has thermodynamic loses.
If you simplify this by assuming that the spring is lossless, and that the box is implastic, then you still have resonance from the air. This quickly can be simplified into a hybrid 2 degree of freedom spring problem with an additional spring stay that is lateral to the initial motion. The 2 frequency vertical springs will evolve chaotically and disperse momentum into the lateral springs. This represents energy losses, not due to heating, but due to the conversion by angular momentum. Eventually, the chaos will increase to a degree where the momentum is no longer in the primary axis of movement, but distributed evenly across all degrees of freedom. This is equivalent to an ambient heat problem. Entropy wins again, even without Thermo considerations. Please note that this is essentially a macro scale version of how entropy interacts with heat on a molecular scale.

Sollux Captor
Jul 22, 2017

Shouldn't it just keep going towards the spring and stop at the ceiling in a place like space?

If the box is pulled by a small amount, then it won't have enough potential energy to reach the ceiling and will stop before that .

Pranshu Gaba - 3 years, 10 months ago
Terry Smith
Jul 22, 2017

The perfect spring and vacuum mean the oscillations continue forever.

BUT - the air in the box has mass and therefore has momentum. When the box goes down the gas compresses at the top and puts drag on the box. The opposite at the bottom.

After a while the oscillations stop (or become negligible, since everything is perfect in the system they never really stop...). The gas has heat that is the energy that was in the spring.

Mons Lee
Jul 21, 2017

I see the solution simply as the energy of the system goes into heating the gas until it comes to rest. No heat is lost by the spring or the gas as they are both surrounded by a perfect vacuum.

A W
Jul 20, 2017

The problem statement isn't quite clear about whether the spring is perfectly elastic with zero losses, but let's assume that for now.

The box contains gas, which is made up of molecules. As the box oscillates, the gas within the box will be mixed. That mixing will burn off kinetic energy causing the box oscillation to eventually slow down and stop.

Ok, I've updated the problem statement and replaced elastic by perfectly elastic.

Rohit Gupta - 3 years, 10 months ago
Aniansh Singh
Jul 20, 2017

The gas radiates to the surroundings and absorbs energy from the spring. This creates a sink which will drain the whole system.

Timothy Dommett
Jul 20, 2017

The statement said vacuum not taking away gravity. Gravity still exists within a vacuum

Jimmy Nolan
Jul 20, 2017

It is assumed that the spring has a co-efficient of restitution of 1. So the energy is dissipated in accelerating and braking the gas in the box. Which will heat up and radiate to surroundings. But the potential energy of the spring will reduce proportionally.

Work will be done against the frictional force in the spring along with the elastic force. Work done against the frictional force will be converted to thermal energy and radiated away. As energy is continuously lost the amplitude will gradually teplaced and eventually the system will come to rest.

Michael F
Jul 20, 2017

There's no such thing as perpetual motion so this was a triviality.

Completely agree. Dissipative forces always creep in and cause energy to lost as heat and sound.

Pranshu Gaba - 3 years, 10 months ago

When the box moves down the gas moves up inside the box similarly vice versa for upward movement of the box so it keeps on eating up some energy of the box thereby leading to the stoppage of the box even if it oscillates in the vacuum.

An elastic spring is one in which no energy is lost to deformation and thus heat. A perfect vacuum is one in which there are no stray molecules to collide with. However, there is no conceptual difference between the air resistance of a box in an atmosphere and the resistance of an atmosphere within a box. What is air resistance? It is the energy lost to slapping air molecules around. Those molecules hit others, etc, creating heat. Creating heat is converting energy.

In a system which has an ideal spring, a perfect vacuum, a perfectly rigid and reflective box (you all forgot that; the box could flex and create heat as well) filled with an ideal gas, the turbulence caused in the gas turns the kinetic energy of the box and the spring into thermal energy in the gas. So the box slows down, and eventually stops.

There are all sorts of other factors which could make it slow down more quickly, but in the end the gas filling is sufficient to stop it in the end.

Courtney Blain
Jul 19, 2017

I believe that due to the non uniform oscillation, i.e. variation from straight line due to the lack of conservation of angular momentum it will come to a stop. If not gravitational waves may play a part.

Ziggy Zaleskas
Jul 19, 2017

The oscillation is essentially creating small pressure waves in the gas, like low amplitude sound waves. The gas would heat maybe a degree or less before the oscillation would stop, depending on the energy of the spring oscillation.

Yuri Barros
Jul 19, 2017

The problem is the response of the fluid to the oscillation, which isn't instantaneous. The response of the force applied on the fluid particles is distributed over time. This causes a dampening of the motion of the system.

Gregory Pearson
Jul 18, 2017

The metal spring is not perfectly elastic: repeatedly stretching and relaxing it will cause it to heat, with the heat coming out of the kinetic energy of the system, causing the box to slow and eventually stop regardless of what happens to the gas molecules in the box and regardless of the surrounding vacuum.

Sum Pan
Jul 18, 2017

Simply think that instead of air there is some other dense fluid.then due to sudden change in direction during oscillation of box will cause that fluid to collide with the wall of the box and it leads to lose of energy and deceleration of the box .Due to air this resistance will be less but then also gradually it will stop the box.

I think that the answer given as correct is a good one, but if you want to be precise, the energy of oscillation will never reach zero. In classical mechanics (plus thermodynamics) energy will be transferred to heat the gas, and the energy of oscillation will decrease indefinitely, but will never reach zero. In quantum mechanics, the energy of oscillation will decrease to the zero point energy, but again the energy of oscillation will not be zero.

I don't understand how you have used quantum mechanics here to show that energy of the oscillation will never be zero. Can you further elaborate on it?

Rohit Gupta - 3 years, 10 months ago
Greg Slawson
Jul 18, 2017

I think it will slowly slow down due to friction at the point of contact of the spring and wood, and maybe other places.

Mohamed Elsayed
Jul 18, 2017

My reasoning was that the gas does not respond to the acceleration in phase with the box. This is most obvious at the turning points. When the box is at rest and about to turn the gas inside is still moving towards the upper/lower surface. This means the gas performs some negative work on the box, thus heating up and gradually wasting the mechanical energy of the oscillator.

The gas is a complete red herring. This is a simple case of equilibrium of vertical forces; when the box is at its lowest point the tension in the spring is greater than the pull of gravity, so it rises. Once past the equilibrium point the compression force in the spring pushes it back down again. Because some mechanical energy is lost at each turning point in the form of heat in the spring due to the spring molecules being caused to push or pull against each other, the resulting amplitude of the oscillations will decay exponentially over time. Thus the box will eventually come to a halt.

John Bailes - 3 years, 10 months ago

First, the problem states that the spring is perfectly elastic. With this assumption, there is NO loss of energy to heat in the spring. The fact that no such material exists is irrelevant: such idealisations are common in applied maths problems, and have to be precisely respected. However, it is correct that with the assumptions, the motion would still get smaller and smaller over time. I identify two clear mechanisms for this, one simple and unambiguous, and another which is a little more messy. The unambiguous mechanism is loss of energy by gravitational radiation. Sorry to those who don't know any general relativity, but the fact is very simple: any object that is accelerated radiates a little energy as gravitational radiation. This is a TINY amount of radiation for this sort of configuration, but it is finite and it makes the device asymptotically stop. The fact that it takes aeons is irrelevant to an idealised problem. The more tricky mechanism relies on simpler physics. As the box oscillates, the gas in it is accelerated, which creates a pressure and temperature gradient.This is not an equilibrium process, so there is a heat flow in the gas. (There is also radiation of energy from the hotter part of the gas which exceeds the absorption of energy by the cooler part of the gas, due to the 4th power law of radiation). Anyhow this pressurisation and heat flow converts kinetic energy to heat, rather like the sloshing of water in a bucket of water that is on the end of a pendulum. This brings the system to a halt over time. As you can see, the gravitational radiation answer is much more tidy, although the latter is a MUCH faster process and all that really matters. Without the gas in the box, gravitational radiation is the only way energy is lost (assuming perfect elasticity and rigidity), but the answer to the problem would remain the same (but would assume some knowledge of the consequences of general relativity).

Liam Roche - 3 years, 10 months ago

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