Another surd

Algebra Level 3

11 + 21 \large \sqrt{11 + \sqrt{21}}

The above expression can be expressed as a b + c d \sqrt{\dfrac{a}{b}} + \sqrt{\dfrac{c}{d}} , where a , b , c a,b,c and d d are positive integers with gcd ( a , b ) = gcd ( c , d ) = 1 \gcd(a,b) = \gcd(c,d) = 1 . Find a + b + c + d a+b+c+d .


This is one part of the set Fun with exponents


The answer is 26.

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5 solutions

Nihar Mahajan
Apr 14, 2016

11 + 21 = ( 21 2 ) 2 + ( 1 2 ) 2 + 2 21 2 1 2 = ( 21 2 + 1 2 ) 2 = 21 2 + 1 2 \sqrt{11+\sqrt{21}} = \sqrt{\left(\sqrt{\dfrac{21}{2}}\right)^2+\left(\sqrt{\dfrac{1}{2}}\right)^2 + 2\sqrt{\dfrac{21}{2}}\sqrt{\dfrac{1}{2}} }=\sqrt{\left(\sqrt{\dfrac{21}{2}}+\sqrt{\dfrac{1}{2}}\right)^2}=\sqrt{\dfrac{21}{2}}+\sqrt{\dfrac{1}{2}}

Thus a + b + c + d = 21 + 2 + 1 + 2 = 26 a+b+c+d=21+2+1+2=\boxed{26}

Moderator note:

The presentation of this solution makes it seem "magical". In actuality, we are simply interested in rational numbers α , β \alpha, \beta which satisfy

α + β = 11 , α × β = 21 2 . \alpha + \beta = 11, \alpha \times \beta = \frac{\sqrt{21}}{2}.

Nice!! .I was thinking the same(removing square root) but unable to do.

A Former Brilliant Member - 5 years, 2 months ago

Did the same

Aditya Kumar - 5 years, 1 month ago
Andreas Wendler
Apr 19, 2016

11 + 21 2 = a b + c d + 2 a c b d \sqrt{11+\sqrt{21}}^{2}=\frac{a}{b}+\frac{c}{d}+2\sqrt{\frac{ac}{bd}}

a d + b c b d = 11 \frac{ad+bc}{bd}=11

4 a c b d = 21 4\frac{ac}{bd}=21

From the last equation we see that bd must be a multiple of 4. Since we can choose 2 variables free we take b=1 and d=4 following:

a c = 21 ac=21

a + c 4 = 11 a+\frac{c}{4}=11

Calculating a=1/2 and c=42 we may write: 1 2 + 42 4 = 1 2 + 21 2 \sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}+\sqrt{\frac{42}{4}}=\sqrt{\frac{1}{2}}+\sqrt{\frac{21}{2}} resuting in the solution 26 \boxed{26} .

Yes I do such problem just as per Challenge Master note for Nihar Mahajan .
X + Y = 11 , X Y = 21 2 . S o X = 21 2 , Y = 1 2 . X+Y=11,\ \ X*Y=\dfrac {\sqrt{21}} 2.\ \ \ \ So\ X=\dfrac {21} 2, \ \ Y=\dfrac 1 {2}.

a+b+c+d=21+2+1+2=26.

Hung Woei Neoh
May 5, 2016

We want to express 11 + 21 \sqrt{11+\sqrt{21}} as a b + c d \sqrt{\dfrac{a}{b}} + \sqrt{\dfrac{c}{d}}

Now, let a b = p \sqrt{\dfrac{a}{b}} = p and c d = q \sqrt{\dfrac{c}{d}} =q

11 + 21 = p + q 11 + 21 = ( p + q ) 2 11 + 21 = p 2 + q 2 + 2 p q \sqrt{11+\sqrt{21}} = p + q\\ 11+\sqrt{21} = (p + q)^2\\ 11+\sqrt{21} = p^2 + q^2 + 2pq

We know that p 2 + q 2 p^2 + q^2 do not have a square root anymore, therefore

p 2 + q 2 = 11 p^2+q^2 = 11

which leaves us with

2 p q = 21 4 p 2 q 2 = 21 q 2 = 21 4 p 2 2pq = \sqrt{21}\\ 4p^2q^2 = 21\\ q^2 = \dfrac{21}{4p^2}

Substitute this to the equation above:

p 2 + 21 4 p 2 = 11 4 p 4 44 p 2 + 21 = 0 ( 2 p 2 21 ) ( 2 p 2 1 ) = 0 p 2 = 21 2 , 1 2 p = ± 21 2 , ± 1 2 p^2 + \dfrac{21}{4p^2} = 11\\ 4p^4 - 44 p^2 + 21 = 0\\ (2p^2 -21)(2p^2 - 1) = 0\\ p^2 = \dfrac{21}{2}, \; \dfrac{1}{2}\\ p = \pm \sqrt{\dfrac{21}{2}}, \; \pm \sqrt{\dfrac{1}{2}}

Now, we know that p = a b p = \sqrt{\dfrac{a}{b}} can only either be a positive number or a complex number, there are no negative values for p p .

Therefore, p = 21 2 , 1 2 p= \sqrt{\dfrac{21}{2}}, \; \sqrt{\dfrac{1}{2}}

If p = 21 2 , q = 1 2 p = \sqrt{\dfrac{21}{2}}, \; q=\sqrt{\dfrac{1}{2}} (Similarly, q q cannot have a negative value)

If p = 1 2 , q = 21 2 p = \sqrt{\dfrac{1}{2}}, \; q=\sqrt{\dfrac{21}{2}}

Therefore, 11 + 21 = p + q = 1 2 + 21 2 \sqrt{11+\sqrt{21}} = p + q = \sqrt{\dfrac{1}{2}} + \sqrt{\dfrac{21}{2}}

a = 1 , b = 2 , c = 21 , d = 2 a=1, b=2, c=21, d=2 . (Or if you simpy insist, a = 21 , b = 2 , c = 1 , d = 2 a=21, b=2, c=1, d=2 )

a + b + c + d = 1 + 2 + 21 + 2 = 26 a+b+c+d = 1 + 2 + 21 + 2 = \boxed{26}

Ashish Menon
Apr 14, 2016

Applying the formula a + b = a + a 2 b 2 + a a 2 b 2 \sqrt{a + \sqrt{b}} = \sqrt{\dfrac{a + \sqrt{a^2 - b}}{2}} + \sqrt{\dfrac{a - \sqrt{a^2 - b}}{2}} , we get:-

11 + 21 = 11 + 11 2 21 2 + 11 11 2 21 2 = 11 + 121 21 2 + 11 121 21 2 = 11 + 100 2 + 11 100 2 = 11 + 10 2 + 11 10 2 = 21 2 + 1 2 \begin{aligned} \sqrt{11 + \sqrt{21}} & = \sqrt{\dfrac{11 + \sqrt{{11}^2 - 21}}{2}} + \sqrt{\dfrac{11 - \sqrt{{11}^2 - 21}}{2}}\\ \\ & = \sqrt{\dfrac{11 + \sqrt{121 - 21}}{2}} + \sqrt{\dfrac{11 - \sqrt{121 - 21}}{2}}\\ \\ & = \sqrt{\dfrac{11 + \sqrt{100}}{2}} + \sqrt{\dfrac{11 - \sqrt{100}}{2}}\\ \\ & = \sqrt{\dfrac{11 + 10}{2}} + \sqrt{\dfrac{11 - 10}{2}}\\ \\ & = \sqrt{\dfrac{21}{2}} + \sqrt{\dfrac{1}{2}} \end{aligned}


\therefore a + b + c + d = 21 + 2 + 1 + 2 = 26 a + b + c + d = 21 + 2 + 1 + 2 = \boxed{26}

Can you please show me how?

a + b = a + a 2 b 2 + a a 2 b 2 \sqrt{a + \sqrt{b}} = \sqrt{\dfrac{a + \sqrt{a^2 - b}}{2}} + \sqrt{\dfrac{a - \sqrt{a^2 - b}}{2}}

A Former Brilliant Member - 5 years, 2 months ago

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I have not really yried proving but I have learnt that formula, i will tell it if I get.

Ashish Menon - 5 years, 2 months ago

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@Nihar Mahajan You know it.

A Former Brilliant Member - 5 years, 2 months ago

You get it now??

A Former Brilliant Member - 5 years, 1 month ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member Square both sides and everything cancels nicely, giving equality.

Sal Gard - 5 years, 1 month ago

I did the same way

Fidel Simanjuntak - 5 years, 1 month ago

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Great :) :+1:

Ashish Menon - 5 years, 1 month ago

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In response to Ashish Siva:Thanks

Fidel Simanjuntak - 5 years, 1 month ago

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@Fidel Simanjuntak In response to Fidel Simanjuntak: Youre welcome

Ashish Menon - 5 years, 1 month ago

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