Balls bouncing on a concave surface

A ball with zero initial velocity falls from a height of R n \frac{R}{n} near the vertical axis of symmetry on a concave spherical surface of radius R R . Assuming that the collision is elastic, it is observed that the second impact of the ball is at the lowest point of the spherical surface. Determine the value of n n to the nearest integer.


The answer is 8.

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2 solutions

Brian Moehring
Mar 11, 2017

Let O O denote the center of the sphere, L L the lowest point on the sphere, D D the point the ball is dropped from, B B the point on the sphere the ball bounces, and θ : = L O B \theta := \measuredangle{LOB} .

Since the ball falls from a height of R / n R/n , its speed v |v| immediately before impact at B B will be given by m g ( R n ) = 1 2 m v 2 v = 2 g R n mg\left(\frac{R}{n}\right) = \frac{1}{2}m|v|^2 \,\,\,\,\, \Rightarrow \,\,\,\,\, |v| = \sqrt{\frac{2gR}{n}} and, since the collision is elastic, this will also be the speed immediately after the impact at B B .

Now, since O L D B \overline{OL}\, ||\, \overline{DB} we know D B O = L O B = θ \measuredangle{DBO} = \measuredangle{LOB} = \theta . Further, since the angle the ball's path makes with the normal O B \overline{OB} is equal on both sides, we can conclude that the initial angle the ball's trajectory makes with the vertical is 2 θ 2\theta . Letting L L be the point ( 0 , 0 ) (0,0) and B = ( R sin θ , R ( 1 cos θ ) ) B = \big(R\sin\theta, R(1-\cos\theta)\big) , we therefore find the following equations of motion for the ball after it bounces: x = R sin θ v sin ( 2 θ ) t = R sin θ 2 g R n sin ( 2 θ ) t y = R ( 1 cos θ ) + v cos ( 2 θ ) t 1 2 g t 2 = R ( 1 cos θ ) + 2 g R n cos ( 2 θ ) t 1 2 g t 2 x = R\sin\theta - |v|\sin(2\theta)t = R\sin\theta - \sqrt{\frac{2gR}{n}}\sin(2\theta)t \\ y = R(1-\cos\theta) + |v|\cos(2\theta)t - \frac{1}{2}gt^2 = R(1-\cos\theta) + \sqrt{\frac{2gR}{n}}\cos(2\theta)t - \frac{1}{2}gt^2

Since the next time it collides with the sphere is at L L , which is ( x , y ) = ( 0 , 0 ) (x,y) = (0,0) , there will be some time t t such that 0 = R sin θ 2 g R n sin ( 2 θ ) t 0 = R ( 1 cos θ ) + 2 g R n cos ( 2 θ ) t 1 2 g t 2 0 = R\sin\theta - \sqrt{\frac{2gR}{n}}\sin(2\theta)t \\ 0 = R(1-\cos\theta) + \sqrt{\frac{2gR}{n}}\cos(2\theta)t - \frac{1}{2}gt^2 and while we could just jump right into solving this, it's useful to make a simplification: if we change variables to u = t g / R u = t\sqrt{g/R} , then these equations become 0 = R ( sin θ 2 n sin ( 2 θ ) u ) 0 = R ( ( 1 cos θ ) + 2 n cos ( 2 θ ) u 1 2 u 2 ) 0 = R\left(\sin\theta - \sqrt{\frac{2}{n}}\sin(2\theta)u\right) \\ 0 = R\left( (1-\cos\theta) + \sqrt{\frac{2}{n}}\cos(2\theta)u - \frac{1}{2}u^2\right) and since R > 0 R>0 , we can divide both equation by R R to find 0 = sin θ 2 n sin ( 2 θ ) u 0 = ( 1 cos θ ) + 2 n cos ( 2 θ ) u 1 2 u 2 0 = \sin\theta - \sqrt{\frac{2}{n}}\sin(2\theta)u \\ 0 = (1-\cos\theta) + \sqrt{\frac{2}{n}}\cos(2\theta)u - \frac{1}{2}u^2

Solving this first equation for u u yields u = n 8 sec θ u = \sqrt{\frac{n}{8}}\sec\theta and then substituting this into the second equation: 0 = ( 1 cos θ ) + 1 2 cos ( 2 θ ) sec θ n 16 sec 2 θ 0 = (1-\cos\theta) + \frac{1}{2}\cos(2\theta)\sec\theta - \frac{n}{16}\sec^2\theta Solving this equation for n n : n = 16 cos 2 θ ( ( 1 cos θ ) + 1 2 cos ( 2 θ ) sec θ ) = 16 cos 2 θ ( 1 cos θ ) + 8 cos ( 2 θ ) cos θ = 8 ( cos ( 2 θ ) + 1 ) ( 1 cos θ ) + 8 cos ( 2 θ ) cos θ = 8 + 8 ( cos ( 2 θ ) cos θ ) \begin{aligned} n &= 16\cos^2\theta\left((1-\cos\theta) + \frac{1}{2}\cos(2\theta)\sec\theta\right) \\ &= 16\cos^2\theta(1-\cos\theta) + 8\cos(2\theta)\cos\theta \\ &= 8(\cos(2\theta) + 1)(1-\cos\theta) + 8\cos(2\theta)\cos\theta \\ &= 8 + 8(\cos(2\theta) - \cos\theta)\end{aligned}

We see that n n depends on θ \theta , but since we're told that the ball starts near the vertical axis of symmetry, we may assume θ \theta is small and therefore cos ( 2 θ ) 1 cos θ \cos(2\theta) \approx 1 \approx \cos\theta , so that n 8 + 8 ( 1 1 ) = 8 . n \approx 8 + 8(1-1) = \boxed{8}.

Yes......great solution!!!

A Former Brilliant Member - 4 years, 3 months ago

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A short approach.The required time can be calculated as t = R s i n θ t=Rsin\theta / u s i n 2 θ usin2\theta

t = R / 2 u cos θ t = R/2u \cos\theta and R ( 1 cos θ ) = u sin 2 θ t + 1 / 2 g t 2 R(1-\cos\theta ) = -u \sin2\theta t+1/2gt^2 .

Put t and u 2 = 2 g H u^2=2gH we get 1 = 1 / 2 cos θ + R / 16 H cos 2 θ 1=1/2 \cos \theta + R/16 H \cos^2\theta .

So, if θ = 0 \theta=0 , then, H = R / 8. H=R/8.

Spandan Senapati - 4 years, 3 months ago

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Can you elaborate on your method? Specifically, the first line, what is t t and how do you get its relation and the second equation as well. This will help others to follow your solution easily.

Rohit Gupta - 4 years, 2 months ago

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@Rohit Gupta t t denotes the time from collision to where it hits next.And this follows as t t =displacement along X X direction / x x component of velocity

Spandan Senapati - 4 years, 2 months ago

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@Spandan Senapati Thanks, for the clarification. Further to add, the X direction is the horizontal direction. The distance traveled in the horizontal direction between the two impacts is R sin θ R \sin \theta and the horizontal component of velocity is u sin 2 θ u \sin 2\theta . Dividing them we will get t = R 2 u cos θ t = \frac{R}{2u\cos \theta} .

Similarly, the second equation is written for the displacement in the vertical direction.

Rohit Gupta - 4 years, 2 months ago

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@Rohit Gupta Yes sir.. .thanks.I forgot to write that step of getting t t

Spandan Senapati - 4 years, 2 months ago

I see that a lot of comments have been deleted.

Spandan Senapati - 4 years, 2 months ago
Aayush Agarwal
Mar 20, 2017

Let point of collision make an angle x with centre with lim x->0. Let us assume that during collision and at the bottom most point of spherical surface its velocity was u and g is acceleration due to gravity. It can be assumed as an inclined projectile motion with inclination x with horizontal. When it strikes the bottom most point let it makes an angle θ with the incline plane.

Using condition for inclined projectile to strike and rebound vertically tan(θ)*tan(x)=1/3 .

Therefore θ-> π/2 - 3*x.

Range of projectile = S = 2 u^2/g * (sin(θ) cos(θ+x)/cos^2(x)) .

Using small angle approximation we get S-> 2 u^2/g * sin(2 x) = R*sin(x).

R/n = u^2/(2*g) = R/8.

Therefore n=8.

Could you explain how you got the formula tan ( θ ) tan ( x ) = 1 3 \tan (\theta) \tan (x) = \dfrac{1}{3} ?

Since we are making approximations, does this mean that if we drop the ball from R 8 \frac{R}{8} , then the second impact of the ball will not be exactly at the lowermost point of the spherical surface?

Pranshu Gaba - 4 years, 2 months ago

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Let body projected up with speed u making angle θ with plane of inclination x. After rebounding vertically its velocity perpendicular to plane = u sin(θ). Therefore its net speed is u sin(θ) sec(x) before and after collision and it made angle (π/2-2 x) with horizontal before collision. Since during entire projectile motion, its horizontal velocity is same, u cos(x+θ) = u sin(θ) sec(x) cos(π/2-2 x) {initial=final}. thus giving tan(θ) tan(x)=1/3

Aayush Agarwal - 4 years, 2 months ago

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Thanks for explaining, now I get it.

Pranshu Gaba - 4 years, 2 months ago

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