Big Earth

Suppose planet BigEarth has the same density and distribution of mass as Earth, and that its atmosphere is identical to Earth's in composition and temperature.

If the radius of BigEarth is twice that of Earth, and the atmospheric pressure at its surface is 1 atm , \SI{1}{atm}, find the height of its atmosphere relative to that of Earth.

Half the height of Earth's atmosphere Same as on Earth 2 \sqrt 2 times higher than Earth's atmosphere Double the height of Earth's atmosphere

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5 solutions

Arjen Vreugdenhil
Jun 28, 2017

Relevant wiki: Gravitation

The mass of the planet is proportional to m R 3 m \propto R^3 .

The gravitational field at its surface is proportional to g m R 2 R 3 R 2 = R . g \propto \frac{m}{R^2} \propto \frac{R^3}{R^2} = R.

The atmospheric pressure is P = ρ a v g g h P = \rho_{avg} g h . Thus h = P ρ a v g g 1 g 1 R . h = \frac{P}{\rho_{avg} g} \propto \frac 1 g \propto \frac 1 R.

Thus, doubling the radius of the planet must be matched by halving the height of the atmosphere.

Of course, this assumes that the atmosphere layer is thin compared to the planet radius.

Steven Chase - 3 years, 11 months ago

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Of course. But then, that is the case with any planet I know of.

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 11 months ago

Nice question with beautiful solution. Enjoyed solving it.

Kaushik Chandra - 3 years, 11 months ago

It's clear that the mass of air particles above a given area on BigEarth's surface should be half the mass of the air particles same area on Earth's surface. But Noone has explained why that translates into an atmosphere half as high. Atmosphere thins as you go up! So doubling its height does NOT double the mass of air particles in that column. Neither does halving the atmosphere's height halve the mass of air particles in said column ! Please, someone give valid explanation - Tony Miller

Tony Miller - 3 years, 11 months ago

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If the density is the same, and the mass is halved, then the height is also halved.

Proof: Consider the air above an area A A , of height h h and density ρ \rho . Its mass is m = ρ V = ρ A h . m = \rho V = \rho A h. In order to halve m m , we must also halve h h if the other quantities remain the same.

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 11 months ago

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But Mr. V. who said the density is the same ? The problem stated that composition is the same. Composition is not density. Did you mean composition AND density are the same in your problem statement.? I think composition means BigEarth's atmosphere is also comprised of oxygen, hydrogen, nitrogen, some moisture , as earth's is. PLease explain how air density can be the same as on Earth when BigEarth has twice the gravitational force. ? thanks in advance

Tony Miller - 3 years, 10 months ago

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@Tony Miller To clarify further: the density of the air at earth's surface is caused by gravity but only indirectly . The more direct cause is the local pressure, which is the cumulative effect of gravity on the higher layers of the atmosphere.

Consider also that removing half of earth's atmosphere would result in half of the atmospheric pressure, even though it does not affect g g .

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 10 months ago

@Tony Miller The density of a gas depends on its composition and pressure: ρ = m V = M V m = M P R T , \rho = \frac m V = \frac M {V_m} = \frac {M P}{R T}, where M M is the molar mass, V m V_m the molar volume, and P V m = R T PV_m = RT per the idea gas law.

Therefore one might wonder about temperatures , but otherwise the fact of equal pressures settles the question.

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 10 months ago

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@Arjen Vreugdenhil Hi Mr. V. - I see you hit on exactly what I was getting at. Although you didn't mention temperature as a variable (and didn't need to as your problem was stated), I believe the temperature on BigEarth has to be hotter than on Earth in order for the scenario you presented to be true. Do you agree? Tony Miller

Tony Miller - 3 years, 10 months ago

... because the only thing that would allow average air density to be the same on both planets would be the expansive effects of higher heat on BigEarth to counter the higher gravity. Tony Miller

Tony Miller - 3 years, 10 months ago
Mark Hennings
Jul 11, 2017

More accurately, we could use the barometric formula p h = p 0 e m g h k T p_h \; = \; p_0 e^{-\frac{mgh}{kT}} for the atmospheric pressure p 0 p_0 at height h h , where p 0 p_0 is the sea-level pressure, m m is the mass of an atom of air, g g is the gravitational acceleration, k k is Bolztmann's constant and T T is the temperature of the atmosphere.

This model still assumes that gravitational acceleration is constant throughout the atmosphere, (so that the effective height of the atmosphere is small relative to the radius of the planet), but allows for the fact that the atmosphere does not stop dead at some point. We would need to adopt a definition of what level pressure corresponds to still being in the atmosphere (for example, p h = 1 1000 p 0 p_h = \tfrac{1}{1000}p_0 at the top of the stratosphere). Let us say, for definiteness, then, that the height of the atmosphere is that height h h for which p h = 1 1000 p 0 p_h = \tfrac{1}{1000}p_0 .

Whatever definition we adopt, the height required to obtain a particular pressure ratio (like 1 1000 \tfrac{1}{1000} ) is inversely proportional to g g (assuming that T T and m m are the same for both planets). Since g g on BigEarth is twice that on Earth, half the height of atmosphere is required on BigEarth to achieve the same sea-level pressure as on Earth.

Could you eleborate more why pressure ratio is inversely proportional to g?

Miki Miki - 3 years, 10 months ago

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What I said is that the height h h needed to achieve a fixed pressure ratio is inversely proportional to g g . This is because the pressure ratio is a function of g h gh .

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 10 months ago

If g is more then more force will act onot the molecules and we know that pressure is directly proportional to the force.

Kaushik Chandra - 3 years, 10 months ago
Beth Davies
Jul 13, 2017

I think this one is quite simple, the radius of the earth was doubled and the pressure stayed at 1atm so something must have been halved (like using opposite operations to solve an equation). Since it says that composition, density of the earth and mass of the earth stay the same, that means it has to be the height that halved.

I don't think this is the right approach. We must first establish the relationship between the pressure, height and other quantities.

Rohit Gupta - 3 years, 11 months ago

If the radius of the earth was doubled, and all other factors were the same except for the pressure, then the pressure would have doubled. Clearly your reasoning does not work there.

Maxime Augier - 3 years, 11 months ago
Jason Hautala
Jul 15, 2017

It seems like if one direction doubles, the mass would go up 8 times 4/3(pi)r^3. Changing r from 1 to 2 would make volume go up by 8 times, making gravity 8 times more, not twice as strong. It seems like the atmosphere would be 1/8 as thick to stay at 1 atmospheres. Where am I wrong in my thinking?

The gravitational field becomes weaker with distance. Since the planet's area is four times bigger, the gravitational force at the surface is "diluted" by a factor four.

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 11 months ago
Bernice Rodriguez
Jul 12, 2017

Everything is the same except size. Bigger planet means more mass stronger gravity and lower atmospheric height.

I just figured if the planet was bigger its gravitational field would have to be stronger, so the only way to have the same air pressure would be if there was less air being pulled down. And only one of the four choices gave us that option.

Richard Desper - 3 years, 11 months ago

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Good catch. We can qualitatively see that the height of atmosphere on the bigger planet should be smaller to have the same pressure. Only one option gives it, thus other options can be eliminated.

Rohit Gupta - 3 years, 11 months ago

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