Breaking pencils in two

You have 2016 sticks of the same length in a box. You pick a stick at random, break it into two equal halves , and put them back in for a total of 2017 sticks. You repeat this process of random picking and breaking indefinitely.

What is the maximum value of x x such that, at any time during this process , you are guaranteed to have at least x x sticks of the same length?


The answer is 1009.

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6 solutions

Mark Hennings
Feb 21, 2018

If there were no more than 1008 1008 pencils of each length 1 , 1 2 , 1 4 , . . . 1,\tfrac12,\tfrac14,... in the box, the total length of pencils would be less (we can only make a finite number of breaks, and so the number of pencils in the box will always be finite) than the infinite sum 1008 ( 1 + 1 2 + 1 4 + 1 8 + ) = 2 × 1008 = 2016 1008\big(1 + \tfrac12 + \tfrac14 + \tfrac18 + \cdots\big) \; = \; 2 \times 1008 \; = \; 2016 which is not possible. Thus there must be at least 1009 1009 pencils of some length in the box at any stage.

It is possible to have an arrangement where there are no more than 1009 1009 pencils of any one length.

  • Break 1007 pencils in half, leaving 1009 pencils of length 1 1 and 2014 pencils of length 1 2 \tfrac12 .
  • Break 1005 of the length 1 2 \tfrac12 pencils in half, leaving 1009 pencils of length 1 2 \tfrac12 and 2010 pencils of length 1 4 \tfrac14 .
  • Break 1001 of the length 1 4 \tfrac14 pencils in half, leaving 1009 pencils of length 1 4 \tfrac14 and 2002 pencils of length 1 8 \tfrac18 .
  • Break 993 of the length 1 8 \tfrac18 pencils in half, leaving 1009 pencils of length 1 8 \tfrac18 and 1986 pencils of length 1 16 \tfrac1{16} .
  • Keep on going until there are fewer than 1009 pencils of the shortest length.

Nice approach, Mark!

Geoff Pilling - 3 years, 3 months ago

This solution is incomplete as it only shows that x 1009 x\geq 1009 .

Abhishek Sinha - 3 years, 3 months ago

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I have added a comment to show how 1009 is possible.

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 3 months ago

If 1009 is the right answer as shown by Mark then the Question is poorly framed and sets misleading constraints. 1. It talks about random picking of sticks but his solution talks about carefully choosing the lengths to break 2. 1009 is the MINIMUM number, not the Maximum as demanded by the question

Navin Kumar Singh - 3 years, 3 months ago

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  1. That doesn't matter. Even if they're randomly picked, you should be certain that your answer works even in the worst case scenario, which is the same as purposefully choosing which sticks you break.

  • Read it again. The question is asking for the maximum number you are guaranteed to have, no matter which sticks you choose to break. Mark shows an example where there's only up to 1009 1009 sticks of each length, and shows it's impossible to construct one with 1008 1008 or less. Thus the maximum is 1009 1009 .

  • Ivo Zerkov - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    Thank you, Ivo .... You helped

    Navin Kumar Singh - 3 years, 3 months ago

    I agree that the question is quite confusing when written in this way. I originally thought that the answer would be "2016". My logic was very similar to FFname's reasoning.

    You are correct that 1009 is a minimum number, but it is also a maximum number. It depends on the exact phrasing. It's hard to explain this well, without creating some precise terminology. I'm going to have a try. Let me know if it helps:

    For one given sequence of breaks, at one given point in the sequence let's say that:

    • L0 = Number of sticks of Length 1.
    • L1 = Number of sticks of Length 1/2.
    • L2 = Number of sticks of Length 1/4
    • L3 = Number of sticks of Length 1/8
    • etc.
    • AND "L" is the largest of these L numbers.

    So if you break 1006 of the original sticks, then

    • L0=1010, and L1=2012, And L=2012

    Then if you break 400 of the 1/2-length sticks:

    • L0=1010, L1=1612, L2=800, And L=1612

    As you say: For all possible sequences, at all possible points in the sequence , 1009 is the MINIMUM possible value of L. But L is not actually the variable that they talked about in the question.

    The question is about a variable called x, which is defined such that you are guaranteed to have at least x sticks of the same length. ( At any possible point in any possible sequence ). This means that x has to be a number such that x is <= L (less than or equal to L) for any possible L .

    So if the minimum possible value for L is 1009:

    • x=2 works: {2 <= L, for all possible L }
    • x=50 works: {50 <= L, for all possible L }
    • x=1006 works: {1006 <= L, for all possible L }
    • x=1007 works: {1007 <= L, for all possible L }
    • x=1008 works: {1008 <= L, for all possible L }
    • x=1009 works: {1009 <= L, for all possible L }
    • x=1010 DOES NOT work: {1010 > L, for some possible L }
    • x=1011 DOES NOT work: {1011 > L, for some possible L }

    So 1009 is the maximum possible value for x, such that there are always guaranteed to be at least x sticks of the same length.

    Douglas Winship - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    Thanks, Douglas.... You really took a lot of pain to explain this. But that was very helpful

    Navin Kumar Singh - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    @Navin Kumar Singh More than welcome.

    I enjoyed writing it. It was an exercise in explaining something as rigourously as I could, and I was very pleased with the result.

    Douglas Winship - 3 years, 3 months ago

    A lot of people get confused when they have to find "the maximum of the minimum of ...". They see just the word "maximum" and think that they need the largest possible number, but fail to consider the subsequent condition.

    Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    Thanks, Calvin... I learnt a new thing

    Navin Kumar Singh - 3 years, 3 months ago

    I disagree with you. 1º The question is about sticks and not about pencils. 2º As @Navi Kumar Singh said, the question ask for the maximum number, so if you start with 2016 pencils and take one pencil you will have 2015 pencils of the same length and 2 pencils with 1/2 original length. 2015 is > than 1009, and you have the certainty that the 2015 pencils have the same length. 3º The statement says "picking and breaking indefinitely" but you said "we can only make a finite number of breaks".

    FFname FFnames - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    The question has been edited, and was initially about pencils. This point is trivial.

    The question talks about breaking indefinitely, but then asks about the position "at any stage of the process". At any such stage, you will only have made a finite number of breaks.

    You can have 2015 pencils of a certain length, but you are not guaranteed to have that number. The largest number you are guaranteed to have is 1009 1009 , although it is possible to have any larger number.

    Mark Hennings - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    Now I understand why the solution isn't 2015, the key i missed was "at any stage of the process", thanks.

    FFname FFnames - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    @FFname FFnames I still agree with FFname. "At all stages" would have been better.

    A Former Brilliant Member - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    @A Former Brilliant Member To my mind, "at all stages" and "at any stage" mean exactly the same thing!

    Mark Hennings - 3 years, 3 months ago

    If we take number 6 as the total number of sticks, the answer should be 4 according to the solution given, but do consider this (6)-(4,4)-(3,3,6)-(3,3,3,6)-(3,3,3,3,6) and so on.This implies that anytime we can be sure about the number of equal length pieces to be 3.4 would not give the same answer.

    Charlz Charlizard - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    Not sure I understand your argument... Can you clarify?

    It seems that the answer for 6 pencils is 4.

    Geoff Pilling - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    i have rephrase it as i was not able to write all i want to say.

    Charlz Charlizard - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    @Charlz Charlizard But in each of your cases listed you have at least one set of the same length that is 4 or greater.

    Geoff Pilling - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    @Geoff Pilling wasn't the question asks us to be sure about any length sticks and not one?

    Charlz Charlizard - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    @Charlz Charlizard As I understand it, you have to be able to guarantee that none of the sets can have length greater than a certain amount?

    Geoff Pilling - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    @Geoff Pilling Yes, now you are getting my point, otherwise one cannot be sure of the number of sticks of same length.

    Charlz Charlizard - 3 years, 3 months ago

    @Charlz Charlizard In the case of 6 6 sticks, it would not be possible for there to be no more than 3 3 sticks of any length, since that would mean that the total length of the sticks was less than (we can only have a finite number of sticks) 3 [ 1 + 1 2 + 1 4 + 1 8 + ] = 6 3\Big[1 + \tfrac12 + \tfrac14 + \tfrac18 + \cdots\Big] \; = \; 6 which is not possible. Thus we must have at least 4 4 sticks of some length.

    In all the cases you give, while there are many stick lengths which only have 3 3 sticks, there is always at least one stick length with 4 4 or more. Thus we always have a stick length count of 4 4 or more, but we do not have to have a stick length count of 5 5 (break two sticks in half, and have 4 sticks of length 1 1 and 4 4 sticks of length 1 2 \tfrac12 ). Thus 4 4 is the largest possible value n n in the statement "we must have at least n n of some stick length".

    Mark Hennings - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    @Mark Hennings I agree that there will be least 4 of some sticks of some length, but in order to be sure about every length sticks as the question asks, would't the answer here will be 3.?

    Charlz Charlizard - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    @Charlz Charlizard You are misreading the question. We are not asked for a number such that there are at least that number of sticks of any length, but that there is always at least one length with that number of sticks or more.

    Mark Hennings - 3 years, 3 months ago

    The question is poorly worded. It asks for the maximum number at any time. Well, there are 2016 sticks of equal length to start with. If you stop at time 0 (which satisfies "any time"), before breaking any sticks, you are guaranteed to have 2016 sticks of equal length--certainly more than the given answer of 1008. The question should read, "what is the maximum value of x such that you are guaranteed to have at least x sticks of equal length at ALL times during the process."

    Did anyone else get tripped up by this?

    Ken Haley - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    The phrase "at any time" does not mean "at one particular time that you can choose", like going with t = 0 t=0 . It is effectively identical to the phrase "at all times". If something is true for all times , then it is true at any time you choose, where you have all possible choices, and might pick any of the possible choices.

    Mark Hennings - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    To add on, many people are confused between the mathematical terms "for all" ( ) ( \forall) and "there exists one" ( ) ( \exists) , especially when these are combined.

    Saying "For all of human history, there exists a person that, is alive" is very different from saying "There exists a person that, for all of human history, is alive".

    Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 3 months ago

    I did the same thing, then I answered 2015, for I then thought, perhaps 'the process' starts at the moment the first one is done and the guessing begins...

    marieke Elzer - 3 years, 3 months ago

    I completely misinterpreted this question.

    Nathan Speer - 3 years, 3 months ago

    I would add that the question is poorly worded because it states the breaking process happens indefinitely , ergo the correct answer should be 1008. So the expression "at any time during this process " is italicized. Then the "at" is supposed to imply at a finite time? That's horribly vague. Namely, at some point in the very distant future, i.e. in the limit of infinite time, the sticks will be able to be binned perfectly into all the infinite lengths from L to 0 with a count of 1008 per bin.

    A Former Brilliant Member - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    Although you break it up into 1008 stick at each of the different length, you must remain the shortest stick that have amount of 2016. By this method, you will always get 2016 as the maximum number of stick of the same length despite how much times you break it up, you will never ever get this value smaller then 2016. Only the nearest integer, namely 1009, can successfully deduce the amount(2016) until this amount less than 1009 and also be the number satisfied the condition, then the proof complete.

    Kelvin Hong - 3 years, 3 months ago

    The way that I've seen the word used, "indefinitely" isn't quite the same thing as "infinitely".

    For example "Indefinitely long time" usually means that a finite amount of time passes, but that we have no upper limit on how much time that is. It could be a second, it could be a billion years, it could be a googleplex of millenia. It could be literally any finite number. But it is finite.

    Douglas Winship - 3 years, 2 months ago

    Wouldn't this demonstrate that if x=1009, at some point, you wouldn't have at least 1009 pencils, thus it HAS to be less than 1009. But if you leave 1007, you are going to end up with more and more pencils, so it has to be 1008?

    Manuel Muratalla Sánchez - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    No, because you can never have 1008 or fewer pencils of any length. You have to have at least 1009 of at least one length of pencil.

    Mark Hennings - 3 years, 3 months ago

    My solution was similar but a little more systematic. At each step,k, break 1010-k of the sticks of length 2^(-k). This creates a strictly descending series where ultimately there are 1008 lots with the following number of sticks in the lots: {1009, 1008, 1007,..., 2}. This is optimal since if any stick is broken, say in lot j, the next set down (call it lot j+1) “leapfrogs” lot j in terms of number of sticks. (There is an exception for the last lot containing the 2 smallest sticks where breaking one just creates another lot of 2).

    Sean McCloskey - 3 years, 2 months ago
    Gurnoor Singh
    Mar 4, 2018

    There are infinitely many ways to break those 2016 sticks. But the question is asking us what is the value of x so that if we choose any of those infinite ways, at any step we will have at least x sticks of same kind. So I assume that it is clear by now what the question is asking. Now let us say that the length of one of those 2016 sticks is 1 unit. We observe that the subsequent lengths of sticks will be of form 1/2^n where n is an integer. Now let us say there are ai pieces of the length 1/2^i. We have the equation a0 +a1/(2^1) + a2 /(2^2) +a3/(2^3)+.....= 2016 The solution of the values of ai from here represents each and every case possible. Now in all those solution sets, there exists a maximum value of ai. We need to find the minimum of the set of maximum values of ai to answer the question.

    To do that first simply consider the equation a0+a1/2 = 2016. Now one solution of this equation is going to be (1008,2016) We observe that if we increase the value of a0, the value of a1 decreases. So in these solutions the case we are looking for will be when a0=a1=1344 (in this case), because out of all the solutions of the above equation, the minimum of max(a0,a1) will be 1344.

    Extending this argument further, in the case of 3 variables a0+a1/2+a2/4= 2016, we observe this same again. Now here the equality a0=a1=a2 corresponds to (1152,1152,1152) triplet. ( I hope it is clear why we are choosing the equal values, if its not let me know in the comments I will elaborate it more) But luckily here we could get the integer values of a. Now in case we get a non integer as in a0+a1/2+a2/4+a3/8= 2016 case the optimised solution is (1075.2,1075.2,1075.2,1075.2) But clearly we can see our ai cannot take non integral values. So we have to round it off the right way. Now to round off, if we choose a0 as 1076, then it would give us the answer 1076 because all the other values are going to be less than it. But if we chose a0 as 1075, then at least one of the other three values is greater than 1075.2. Combining these two observations we can say that in case of non integral values, we take the ceiling of the non integral value as answer.

    Now coming to our question the equation now to be solved is a (1+(1/2)+(1/2^2)+(1/2^3)+....) =2016 Now since we are tending to infinity the infinite sum tends to 2 but is still slightly less than 2 by a very very small amount. So a is going to be bigger than 1008 by very very small amount but when we take its ceiling function, we get 1009.

    I hope this helps. If any part is not clear, let me know and I will elaborate.

    Can you take a look at my comments on Mark's Solution?

    Charlz Charlizard - 3 years, 3 months ago
    Jeremy Galvagni
    Mar 6, 2018

    Just a question for Nur or whom ever made this a weekly problem: why make 2016 sticks and not 2018? It doesn’t change much but make the problem up-to-date.

    The question is not clear: How to break the sticks? And if I break a stick in half, then I alreadyhave 2 of the same length!

    A Former Brilliant Member - 3 years, 3 months ago

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    Though in theory, you might be capable of doing that, malek, but I am curious of how you would do that in real life... then again, nobody can break sticks in exactly 2 equal halves so there that..

    marieke Elzer - 3 years, 3 months ago

    你亲妈买菜必涨价,这里是回答问题解题思路的地方,你这个吐槽算什么?陈独秀?

    许 宏量 - 3 years, 2 months ago
    Bert Seegmiller
    Mar 11, 2018

    Taking the instructions that:

    We start with 2016 sticks

    1. picking a stick at random, it is broken into two equal halves and both are replaced in the box
    2. continue repeating this process, but stop sometime or somewhere in the process and then count the number of equal-sized sticks.

    It is apparent that 2015 is a guaranteed maximum number for equal-length sticks. I will choose to stop ( during the process) after the first selection.

    I do not understand Mark Henning's solution (sorry, Mark!). I also do not understand the answer 1009.

    I originally picked 1008, since after 1008 selections, there would still be a minimum of 1008 equal-length sticks available (guaranteed). Mark's solution, however, pointed me to the answer 2015 (thank you Mark).

    If any time during this process can include " just after the process starts, but before I select a stick ", then the answer could be 2016.

    Dominic Bobay
    Mar 10, 2018

    I'd like to elaborate on finding solutions to problems in which random members are chosen and manipulated, such as in this one. First off, in this particular case, the problem is asking for a guarantee of 'x'. With this in mind, we can reinterpret the question like so:

    Let 'n' be the number of sticks that we start with, with each having a length of 1 unit. Consider the fact that when breaking each stick, the sum of the lengths of all the sticks remains at n units. Let's consider the set of all configurations of sticks that can be achieved by some combination of picking sticks and breaking them into two equal halves. We can now rephrase the question like so: what is the lower bound on the highest number of equal-length sticks for every member of this set?

    Now this turns into an optimization problem. Can we come up with some configuration that, when taking any number of sticks and splitting them, will result in a greater number of equal-length sticks? Let's reason through this step by step. First, we have 2016 sticks, all of equal length. Taking any one of those sticks and splitting them will give us 2015 equal-length sticks, which is a lower number than 2016, so our original setup was not an optimal solution. Now we start looking at extremes. If we took all 2016 sticks and split them, we would have 4032 sticks, which is definitely not optimal. But what if we took 1008 of those 2016 sticks and split them? Then, we would have 2016 half-length sticks, and 1008 full-length sticks. Notice the symmetry we have achieved here. If we segregate the 1008 full-length sticks, we will have 2016 half-length sticks, which is just a scaled down copy of our original setup. Now we can take half of those 2016 half-length sticks, split them, and come up with 1008 half-length sticks and 2016 quarter-length sticks.

    Now imagine applying this process indefinitely. How would we know if we have achieved an optimum (a lower bound on the highest number of equal-length sticks)? If we took any random stick from this configuration, it's length would be 1/2^m where 'm' is some integer, and there would be 1008 sticks of its kind. Breaking it up would give us 1007 sticks of length 1/2^m, yes, but it would also give us 1010 sticks of length 1/2^(m+1), because the number of sticks of length 1/2^(m+1) used to be 1008, but we just added 2 more sticks to that group. This means that the highest number of equal-length sticks for this new configuration is 1010. This value is greater than that of our previous configuration, 1008, and since we could've picked any stick from that configuration, it means that configuration is an optimal solution (and that 1008 is the lower bound). So why isn't it the solution to the problem?

    As some have pointed out, the problem is looking at configurations that can be achieved by any number of iterations of the process (the process being: "taking a stick and splitting it into equal halves"). Our configuration required an infinite number of steps. So our configuration is not valid because it cannot be achieved by any number of steps, for infinity is not a number. Admittedly, the question used the word "time" when describing steps of the process, which fuzzes up some interpretations. For instance, it is mathematically possible to perform an infinite number of steps in a finite amount of time, through a process known as a "Supertask" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supertask). However, we have 3 tries to solve the problem, so if you input 1008 the first time and didn't get it right, at least you have 2 more tries. I agree that the wording is a bit fuzzy, though.

    Now as for finding a configuration in a finite number of steps, this turned out to be somewhat tedious. Firstly, you can assume that because 1008 didn't work, and it was a supposed lower bound, the next potential lower bound would be at 1009. And it does turn out that 1009 has a solution, although this solution takes some working out to find. I used the fact that the infinite sum '(1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + ...) = 2', and that if I wanted to modify the sum to be finite but still equal to 2, I can cut off the series at any point, and multiply the last term by 2. For example, '(1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 2/16) = (1 + 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/8) = 2'. I then related 2016 to the nearest power of 2, which is 2048 (so 2016 = 2048 - 32). So if we let 'p = 2048/2 = 1024', then we have: '2048 = (p + p/2 + p/4 + p/8 + p/16 + p/32 + p/64 + p/128 + p/256 + p/512 + (2*p)/1024)'. Substituting 'p' for '1009 = p - 15', we get: '(p-15) + (p-15)/2 + (p-15)/4 + (p-15)/8 + (p-15)/16 +(p-15)/32 + (p-15)/64 + (p-15)/128 + (p-15)/256 + (p-15)/512 + (2p-30)/1024) = 2018'. Note that the last term, '(2p-30)/1024', can be written as '1 + 994/1024'. We subtract out that extra 1 from this term, and also the first term 'p-15', to get 'p-16', so that our total sum is now equal to 2016. So our final result is:

    1008 sticks of unit-length, 9 groups of 1009 sticks of '1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, 1/64, 1/128, 1/256, and 1/512' lengths, and 994 sticks of 1/1024 length.

    Borja Cm
    Mar 9, 2018

    The problem asks for a number x such that, no matters how many times we repeat the process, we can be sure that at least x sticks will have the same length. We can consider sticks of 1 unit of lenght initially. We can represent ai, i=0,1,2,3,4,...m, where "ai" means the ammount of sticks of length "(1/2)^i". In this way (a0,a1,a2,a3,...,am) will represent the different amounts for each length (in decreasing order)

       Note 1: When we break a stick of length (1/2)^i, ai dicreases in 1 and a[i+1] goes up in 2. (because we made two new pieces with the first one)
    
       Note 2: Let´s N be the inital number of sticks and let´s x be the wanted number, i.e. NO MATTERS HOW MANY STICKS WE BREAK, WE WILL HAVE 
       ALWAYS AT LEAST x STICKS WITH THE SAME LENGTH. I afirm that x > N/2:
    
         N= Sum(ai·(1/2)^i) <= Sum(x·(1/2)^i) = xSum((1/2)^i) = x(2-1/2^m) < 2x,   so is clear that x > N/2.
    

    Let´s see some numeric examples to practice with the notation:

     For example, if we take 3 initial sticks, in the first step we will have (3). In the second step (2,2)
    
     For n=4, (4) then (3,2) and no matters how many steps we take, we will always have AT LEAST 3 with the same length.
    
     For n=5 the solution is also x=3: (5) , (4,2) , (3,4), (3, 3, 2) and no matters how many steps we take, we will always have AT LEAST 3 with the same length.
    
     For n=6 the solution is x=4: (6) , (5,2), (4,4) which is the solution (as we are going to prove).
    

    I afirm that given a inital natural number N of sticks, the general solution is x = WholePart(N/2) + 1. Let´s see it:

    Case 1

    Case 1: If N is an odd number, N=2n+1, I afirm that the solution would be x = WholePart(N/2) + 1 i.e. x=n+1
    
    According to Note 1, we begin with (n+1, 2n).
    
    If 2n<=n+1, we have the solution. Else we have (n+1, n+1, 2n-2). 
    
    If 2n-2 <= n+1, we have the solution. Else, we have (n+1, n+1, n+1,2n-6).
    
    And we continue the process till the last term is <= n+1.
    
    After k steps, we have (n+1, n+1, n+1,......., 2n+2-2^k) and we continue the process while 2n+2-2^k <= n+1. Solving this equation, we get that k is the first 
    natural number such that 2^k>=n+1. 
    
    So, the solution will be (n+1, n+1, n+1, ....., 2n+2-2^k) being the first k values "n+1", and 2n+2-2^k por the k+1 position.
    

    Case 2

    Case 2. If N is an even number, the reasoning is quiet similar and the solution will be (n+1, n+1, n+1, ....., 2n+2-2^k) being the first k-1 values "n+1", and 
    2n+2-2^k por the k position.
    

    Let´s see two examples:

    Example 1

      Case 1. Odd number = 17. 
      x = Whole Part(17/2)+1= 9 must be the solution.
    
      The first k such that 2^k>=9 is k=4, so according to above (9,9,9,9,2) is the solution and this is true because 9+9/2+9/4+9/8+2/16= 17
    

    Example 2

      Case 2. Even number= 2016
      x =  Whole Part(2016/2)+1= 1009 must be the solution.
    
     The first k such that 2^k>=1009 is k=10. So (1009, 1009, 1009, 1009, 1009, 1009, 1009, 1009, 1009, 994) is the solution and this is true because 
    1009 + 1009/2 +1009/4 +1009/8 + 1009/16 + 1009/32 + 1009/64 + 1009/128 +  1009/256 + 994/512 = 2016
    

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