BRILLIAthon Day 1 1 , Problem 2 2 of 2 2

Geometry Level 2

tan ( x ) = tan 1 ( x ) \tan(x) = \tan^{-1}(x)

Find the smallest integer x x satisfying the equation above.


The answer is 0.

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4 solutions

David Vreken
Jul 17, 2020

According to an extension of Niven's theorem , the only rational values of tangent are 0 0 and ± 1 \pm 1 . Since the equation can be rearranged to x = tan ( tan ( x ) ) x = \tan (\tan (x)) (and if we assume x x must be an integer), we only need to test these three values, and we find:

tan ( 1 ) tan 1 ( 1 ) \tan(-1) \neq \tan^{-1}(-1)

tan ( 0 ) = tan 1 ( 0 ) \tan(0) = \tan^{-1}(0)

tan ( 1 ) tan 1 ( 1 ) \tan(1) \neq \tan^{-1}(1)

Therefore, x = 0 \boxed{x = 0} .

Wow! Niven's Theorem is so powerful to prove things about trigonometory! Nice solution!

Vinayak Srivastava - 11 months ago

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It helped that I still had Niven's Theorem on my mind after doing the question "Irrational, Existing or What?"

David Vreken - 11 months ago

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Actually, I came to know about it that day only, which searching to complete my proof. I did not understand its power at that time. I though it is just another theorem, but it is a good one to prove so many things!

Vinayak Srivastava - 11 months ago

Very Great @David Vreken what should I write now for the proof, LOL as you have already used Niven's theorem. BTW I loved your puns video in youtube and to be honest in the first problem I got the names from your children to see your reaction, don't mind me, consider it as a psychological experiment, I am unpredictable. Now I guess I will write a proof related to high-school trigonometry XD.

Siddharth Chakravarty - 11 months ago

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Aha! One mystery solved!

David Vreken - 11 months ago

@David Vreken - What youtube channel is @Siddharth Chakravarty talking about, please tell me.................

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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lmgtfy LOL.....

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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Thank you @Páll Márton , but how will you gtfm without the name of the channel?

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member The name is David Vreken :)

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member Thanks @Páll Márton , I found it

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

@David Vreken - The PunsCompilation video is pure gold LOL XD

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

@David Vreken - Your channel deserves more subs, so here's +1 subscribe to you good sir.

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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Thanks, I'm glad you like it lol

David Vreken - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

@David Vreken the wording has been changed now, so there are more values now. @Yajat Shamji upload a new question, or put a proper wording. Check this

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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Since the answer box for this questions did not say "Use 3 significant digits," I assumed that the answer was an integer (and in my solution I did write, "if we assume x x must be an integer"), but I do agree that there are other possible non-integer solutions and that the question should probably say "find an integer solution to x x " instead of just "find x x ."

David Vreken - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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It was first written "positive integer", so I reported it, and then it was changed to integer. Then, I asked @Yajat Shamji the proof that it is the only integer, because no solution was posted then with a proof. However, instead of proof, it was changed to "Find x x ".

Vinayak Srivastava - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

Yes, even I answered 0 when the wording was not changed, but now as he has done it. I am requesting @Yajat Shamji to upload a new problem. Because I think lot of people might have got confused or given wrong answers or viewed the solutions.

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@Siddharth Chakravarty @Siddharth Chakravarty , I was reading some formulas of Kinematics, and I can understand most of these, but I am unable to solve the questions. You are good in physics as I have seen in your solutions of Daily Challenges. So, can you give some tip? Thanks!

Vinayak Srivastava - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@Vinayak Srivastava Yes, I sure can because I loveee physics, just mention me in some discussion note, and ask your particular doubts.

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@Siddharth Chakravarty Even I like Physics a little, but is there any specific rule for solving questions, or is it just practice?

Vinayak Srivastava - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@Vinayak Srivastava The main thing is to understand the questions and only the knowledge of the equations and for what it is used. But even Physics can't take the place of Maths, Maths and Logic always on no.1 for me :D

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@Siddharth Chakravarty For me, nothing can take place of pure Algebra and Number Theory!

Vinayak Srivastava - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

@Vinayak Srivastava Just math :) Two years ago I was the 2th in the county phisics competition. Only a few points...

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member Nice! You seem to be multi-talented, you have got a lot of awards!

Vinayak Srivastava - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

BTW The correct solution isn't y=tan(tan(y)) where tan(y)=x?

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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I don't understand what you mean.

Vinayak Srivastava - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@David Vreken wrote that: x = t a n ( t a n ( x ) ) x=tan(tan(x)) , but: t a n ( x ) = t a n 1 ( x ) tan(x)=tan^{-1}(x) Let's be t a n ( y ) = x tan(y)=x : t a n ( t a n ( y ) ) = t a n 1 ( x ) tan(tan(y))=tan^{-1}(x) But t a n ( y ) = x t a n 1 ( x ) = y tan(y)=x\implies tan^{-1}(x)=y : t a n ( t a n ( y ) ) = y tan(tan(y))=y

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member Oh, but the answer will be same since tan ( 0 ) = 0 \tan(0)=0 .

Vinayak Srivastava - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@Vinayak Srivastava Only I can't solve trigonometric equations?

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member I also couldn't solve most till yesterday, just read a little yesterday and can solve some now(I also don't understand the complexity of this sentence).

Vinayak Srivastava - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

@A Former Brilliant Member I did:

tan ( x ) = tan 1 ( x ) \tan (x) = \tan^{-1}(x)

tan ( tan ( x ) ) = tan ( tan 1 ( x ) ) \tan(\tan (x)) = \tan(\tan^{-1}(x))

tan ( tan ( x ) ) = x \tan(\tan (x)) = x

x = tan ( tan ( x ) ) x = \tan(\tan (x))

David Vreken - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@David Vreken Yes, that was self-evident bcoz I just reversed it back to verify, why did you still write the proof? Any problem?

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@Siddharth Chakravarty No problem, I was just showing a different way.

David Vreken - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

@David Vreken Can we simplify that? x = t a n ( x ) x=tan(x) ? But from our approaches: x = y x = t a n ( x ) x=y\implies x=tan(x) Isn't?

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member Oh, I didn't see your comment notification neither your comment, LOL! But what approach you used?

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

@A Former Brilliant Member How did you get x=y?

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@Siddharth Chakravarty y=tan(tan(y) and x=tan(tan(x)) have the same roots.

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member Ohh. But it can be two different roots :)

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member But if x=tan(x), then x=tan(tan(x)) :)

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member Did your mind just run through steps of self-realisation? XD

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

@A Former Brilliant Member It could but not necessarily. If tan ( x ) = 1 \tan(x) = 1 and tan ( y ) = 1 \tan(y) = 1 , one possibility is x = y = π 4 x = y = \frac{\pi}{4} , but another possibility is x = π 4 x = \frac{\pi}{4} and y = 5 π 4 y = \frac{5\pi}{4} .

David Vreken - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@David Vreken Yeah :) some text

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member What does "some text" mean?

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@Siddharth Chakravarty If your comment is too short, then you can't send

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

@David Vreken Also in the context of this question, if you plot the graph or check the non-integer solutions, x y x\neq y .

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

LaTeX: 20 20

Intelligible Solution: 10 10

Uniqueness: 10 10

Pics: 0 0

Algorithmic Structure: 3 3

Animations: 0 0

Total: 43 43

Yajat Shamji - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

tan ( x ) = tan 1 ( x ) \tan(x) = \tan^{-1}(x) x = tan ( tan ( x ) ) x = \tan(\tan(x))

According to an extension of Niven's Theorem, the only rational values of tangent are 0 0 and 1 ± 1 1 \pm 1 .

When graphed, the only line that exists is the one with x = 0 x = 0 (As seen in the pictures below)

tan ( 0 ) = tan 1 ( 0 ) \tan(0) = \tan^{-1}(0) tan ( 1 ) = tan 1 ( 1 ) \tan(1) \cancel{=} \tan^{-1}(1) tan ( 1 ) = tan 1 ( 1 ) \tan(-1) \cancel{=} \tan^{-1}(-1)

x = 0 x=0

@Yajat Shamji - scores.........

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Sorry! Family issues followed by a (almost) week ban...

Yajat Shamji - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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Wow, its been a week, how are you?

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member I am fine.

Yajat Shamji - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

Mathathon is almost finished, and all the problems have already been posted........... @Yajat Shamji

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member I withdraw then.

Yajat Shamji - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@Yajat Shamji You still have time till 26th to post solutions, so there's still a chance.............

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member Not likely, I have to focus on the BRILLIAthon...

Yajat Shamji - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@Yajat Shamji isn't it over, after you went offline, everybody stopped commenting here, because we thought it got cancelled like Mathematicians War of Siddharth Chakravarty

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member No. It's still on.

Yajat Shamji - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@Yajat Shamji Ok, looking forward to my score on this problem then :)

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

Do you have 100's of notifications lol?

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member Yes, I do.

Yajat Shamji - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@Yajat Shamji LOL, take your time going through them LOL

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member I just dismissed them lol

Yajat Shamji - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@Yajat Shamji LOL, I always do that LOL

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

Hope that you and your family are ok

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member My family is OK.

Yajat Shamji - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

LaTeX: 20 20

Intelligible Solution: 10 10

Uniqueness: 10 10

Pics: 1 1

Algorithmic Structure: 3 3

Animations: 0 0

Total: 44 44

Awarded 'BRILLIAthon Star' for Problem 2 2 .

Yajat Shamji - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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Thanks, @Yajat Shamji . I've been very eager to see my score, as the Math War got cancelled :) I'm glad you're continuing the BRILLIAthon!

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 3 weeks ago

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@A Former Brilliant Member No problem! Check Problem 1 1 !

Yajat Shamji - 10 months, 3 weeks ago
Jeff Giff
Jul 17, 2020

At first glance I saw ‘positive’, and I was like WHAT? So I tried re-writing the formula as tan ( tan ( x ) ) = x \tan (\tan (x))=x , etc. One solution was x = 0 x=0 . Then I saw that the wording has changed, and realised the only possibility was that the answer 0 isn’t considered positive and the wording had to be changed, so my proof is tan ( x ) = tan 1 ( x ) tan ( tan ( x ) ) = x , \tan (x)=\tan ^{-1} (x)\Rightarrow \tan ( \tan (x))=x, and the only integer solution to this equation is 0 since 0 is a valid solution and the solution to this equation has an irrational period. \text{and the only integer solution to this equation is 0 since 0 is a valid solution and the solution to this equation has an irrational period.} Since the period is irrational, no matter what integer you multiply it by, the result is irrational.

Yes, the question was wrong, but I reported it and now @Yajat Shamji has changed it! Now it is correct! However, there isn't much clarity about being an integer!

Vinayak Srivastava - 11 months ago

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That is why I reported it for not specifying about the number x, whether it was rational or not @Vinayak Srivastava

A Former Brilliant Member - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

LaTeX: 20 20

Intelligible Solution: 10 10

Uniqueness: 0 0

Pics: 0 0

Algorithmic Structure: 3 3

Animations: 0 0

Total: 33 33

Yajat Shamji - 10 months, 3 weeks ago
James Watson
Jul 17, 2020

tan ( 0 ) = 0 \tan(0) = 0 , tan 1 ( 0 ) = 0 \tan^{-1}(0)=0 therefore the answer is 0 \boxed{0} . It is debatable whether 0 is positive but in this case it is.

Edit: the wording of the question has been changed so 0 being positive or not can be left aside

You're not in the competition...

Yajat Shamji - 11 months ago

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was this not an open community question? sorry i didn't realise

James Watson - 11 months ago

What competition? Who cares if he's not. Why are you gatekeeping him? Just let him submit a solution.

Pi Han Goh - 11 months ago

I am curious-when is 0 0 positive?

Vinayak Srivastava - 11 months ago

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i don't know, there are people who think that it is and those who do not. it can be written as a positive ( + 0 +0 ) or as a negative ( 0 -0 ). i guess it is down to opinion. as i said, in this case the author believes that 0 0 is positive and in order to get the question 'right' i will go along with it. besides, i have work to do and debating 0's positiveness isn't my priority at the moment

James Watson - 11 months ago

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I am not arguing, I wish to know where + 0 +0 and 0 -0 are used, it seems interesting to me!

Vinayak Srivastava - 11 months ago

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@Vinayak Srivastava you can see it in limits i guess, when evaluating them from different sides

James Watson - 11 months ago

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@James Watson Ok, I'll see to it some day. Thanks for letting me know!

Vinayak Srivastava - 11 months ago

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@Vinayak Srivastava yeah, a good example is lim x 0 1 x \lim\limits_{x\to 0}\frac{1}{x} . we can prove that this limit doesn't exist when approaching 0 from the positive side and negative side; since evaluating the limit at + 0 +0 results in \infty and 0 -0 results in -\infty we can conclude that it doesn't exist

James Watson - 11 months ago

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@James Watson Oh, thank you! Now I think I understand a bit where + 0 +0 and 0 -0 came.

Vinayak Srivastava - 11 months ago

@James Watson But ain't this limit going like from the negative side going to a number very close to 0 but not 0, like -0.000...1 where... a lot of zeroes between and same for the positive side. Although the answer is undefined for x=0, but 0 is a neutral number because 0 is nothing, so doing nothing is to be neutral in a logical sense also.

Siddharth Chakravarty - 11 months ago

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@Siddharth Chakravarty what do you mean by doing nothing?

James Watson - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@James Watson 0 has neutral parity because adding and subtracting, it does/ affects nothing.

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@Siddharth Chakravarty ok so what has that got to do with the limit?

James Watson - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@James Watson I mean y= undefined when x=0, because `1/0 literally means searching for a number that multiplied by 0 gives 1 which is not possible. However, you can check some arguments on 0^0, you will find them of interest.

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@Siddharth Chakravarty yes y may be undefined when x=0, but what a limit means is that it when x tends to 0, y tends to \infty or - \infty . tends to means approaches

James Watson - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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@James Watson I know this, I was telling you what y would be at when x=0. Because limit always doesn't approach the expected value like y = |x| where the derivate is not defined at 0 if you use limits from both the sides.

Siddharth Chakravarty - 10 months, 4 weeks ago

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