Can you manipulate?

Algebra Level 3

a b c d = 2 , a c b d = 3 \dfrac{a-b}{c-d} = 2, \qquad \dfrac{a-c}{b-d} = 3

If the above are true for real numbers a a , b b , c c , and d d , find the value of a d b c . \dfrac{a-d}{b-c}.


The answer is -5.

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12 solutions

Relevant wiki: System of Linear Equations (Simultaneous Equations)

The given equations imply { E 1 : a + 2 d = b + 2 c E 2 : a + 3 d = 3 b + c \begin{cases} E_1:\ a + 2d = b + 2c \\ E_2:\ a + 3d = 3b + c \end{cases} We want to multiply both equations by a factor and subtract them so that the left side becomes a d a - d . It is not difficult to see that factors 4 and 3 do the trick, so that 4 a + 8 d = 4 b + 8 c 3 a + 9 d = 9 b + 3 c a d = 5 b + 5 c . \begin{array}{c} 4a + 8d = 4b + 8c \\ 3a + 9d = 9b + 3c \\ \hline a - d = -5b + 5c.\end{array} Clearly, a d = 5 ( b c ) , a d b c = 5 . a - d = -5(b - c),\ \ \ \therefore\ \ \ \ \frac{a-d}{b-c} = \boxed{-5}.

Tapas Mazumdar
Apr 29, 2017

Relevant wiki: Componendo and Dividendo

a b c d = 2 ( a b ) + ( c d ) ( a b ) ( c d ) = 2 + 1 2 1 by componendo and dividendo ( a d ) ( b c ) ( a + d ) ( b + c ) = 3 ( 1 ) a c b d = 3 ( a c ) + ( b d ) ( a c ) ( b d ) = 3 + 1 3 1 ( a d ) + ( b c ) ( a + d ) ( b + c ) = 2 ( 2 ) \begin{aligned} \dfrac{a-b}{c-d} = 2 & \implies \dfrac{(a-b)+(c-d)}{(a-b)-(c-d)} = \dfrac{2+1}{2-1} & \small {\color{#3D99F6} \text{by componendo and dividendo}} \\ & \implies \dfrac{(a-d)-(b-c)}{(a+d)-(b+c)} = 3 \qquad {\color{#3D99F6} (1)} \\ \dfrac{a-c}{b-d} = 3 & \implies \dfrac{(a-c)+(b-d)}{(a-c)-(b-d)} = \dfrac{3+1}{3-1} \\ & \implies \dfrac{(a-d)+(b-c)}{(a+d)-(b+c)} = 2 \qquad {\color{#3D99F6} (2)} \end{aligned}

( 1 ) ÷ ( 2 ) {\color{#3D99F6} (1)} \div {\color{#3D99F6} (2)} gives

( a d ) ( b c ) ( a d ) + ( b c ) = 3 2 { ( a d ) ( b c ) } + { ( a d ) + ( b c ) } { ( a d ) ( b c ) } { ( a d ) + ( b c ) } = 5 applying componendo and dividendo again a d b c = 5 a d b c = 5 \begin{aligned} \dfrac{(a-d)-(b-c)}{(a-d)+(b-c)} = \dfrac 32 & \implies \dfrac{\{(a-d)-(b-c)\}+\{(a-d)+(b-c)\}}{\{(a-d)-(b-c)\}-\{(a-d)+(b-c)\}} = 5 & \small {\color{#3D99F6} \text{applying componendo and dividendo again}}\\ & \implies - \dfrac{a-d}{b-c} = 5 \\ & \implies \dfrac{a-d}{b-c} = \boxed{-5} \end{aligned}

In an easy way, put d=0 and c=1, solve for a and b you'll get answer.

Sahil Silare - 4 years, 1 month ago

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Yeah, such a shortcut works here. But I wanted to show the rigorous approach. :)

P.S. How have you been lately? Can you come on Slack so that we may talk and discuss things?

Tapas Mazumdar - 4 years, 1 month ago

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Add me on it . I don't know what is it, please forward link.

Sahil Silare - 4 years, 1 month ago

Wow what a lot of work, I used substitution and adding of equation to get there a lot quicker.

Peter van der Linden - 4 years, 1 month ago

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Well, componendo and dividendo hit my brains first so I uploaded the solution with that method.

Tapas Mazumdar - 4 years, 1 month ago

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If I read my comment, it wasn't very friendly. Sorry for that. Your way works fine too of course! It's a matter of what your brains are trained for ;)

Peter van der Linden - 4 years, 1 month ago

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@Peter van der Linden No it was all okay. I wasn't offended or anything. And yes you're correct, whatever method a person is observing or has been practicing most is the first thing that will strike his mind. Btw, if you have some time in hand, go to my profile and read my bio/description. ;)

Tapas Mazumdar - 4 years, 1 month ago

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@Tapas Mazumdar Done that and following now. I don't have much time to upload problems, so I am more of a solver ;)

Peter van der Linden - 4 years, 1 month ago

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@Peter van der Linden Well thank you very much sir. You got (+1) following too. :)

Tapas Mazumdar - 4 years, 1 month ago
Tom Engelsman
Apr 29, 2017

I decided to use a linear algebra approach:

Let the above two equations be rewritten as the system:

a b 2 c + 2 d = 0 a - b - 2c + 2d = 0

a 3 b c + 3 d = 0 a - 3b - c + 3d = 0

which after performing row reduction yields c c and d d as free variables (since we have a 2x4 system). The full solution set is:

a = 5 p 2 3 q 2 , b = p 2 + q 2 , c = p , d = q a = \frac{5p}{2} - \frac{3q}{2}, b = \frac{p}{2} + \frac{q}{2}, c = p, d = q ; p , q R p,q \in \mathbb{R} .

We now compute: a d b c = ( 5 p 2 3 q 2 ) q ( p 2 + q 2 ) p = 5 p 2 5 q 2 p 2 + q 2 = 5 2 ( p q ) 1 2 ( p q ) = 5 . \frac{a-d}{b-c} = \frac{(\frac{5p}{2} - \frac{3q}{2}) - q}{(\frac{p}{2} + \frac{q}{2}) - p} = \frac{\frac{5p}{2} - \frac{5q}{2}}{\frac{-p}{2} + \frac{q}{2}} = \frac{\frac{5}{2} \cdot (p-q)}{-\frac{1}{2} \cdot (p-q)} = \boxed{-5}.

Awsm solution (+1)

Kushal Bose - 4 years, 1 month ago

My solution: I came up with a weird solution:

(a-b)/(c-d) = 2

(a-c)/(b-d) = 3

(a-b)/(c-d) = (c-d)/(c-d) + 1 and (a-c)/(b-d) = (b-d)/(b-d)+2

then subtracting,

(a-b)/(c-d)-(c-d)/(c-d) = [ a-b-c+d]/(c-d) =1 (a-c)/(b-d)-(b-d)/(b-d) = [a-c-b+d]/(b-d) = 2 so ........(c-d)/(b-d) = 2

so.....(a-c)/(b-d)+(c-d)/(b-d) = (a-c+c-d)/(b-d) = (a-d)/(b-d) = 3+2 = 5

a+2d = b+2c a+3d = 3b+c , subtracting these 2 equation so d= 2b-c so b-c = (2b-c)-b = d-b , -----> (b-c) = -(b-d), & (b-d) = -(b-c)

hence since (a-d)/(b-d) = 5 (a-d)/-(b-c) = 5, then---> (a-d)/(b-c) = -5

Daniel Cheng - 4 years, 1 month ago

a-b = 2(c-d) => a + 2d = b + 2c

a-c = 3(b-d) => a + 3d = 3b + c.

Subtracting these 2 equations give d = 2b - c.

Substitution gives a = - 3b - 6c.

Putting a and d in the given equation gives: a-d=-5b-5c =-5(b-c). Dividing by b-c gives the answer - 5.

Voltaire Carrera
May 9, 2017

IM NOT THAT GOOD AT MATH SO USED TRIAL AND ERROR

A=6 B=2 C=3 D=1

Thus,

(A-D)÷(B-C)=(6-1)÷(2-3)

= -5

P.S IM still Grade 2 😂

Yes. This is a good attempt!

Food for thought: Is there any other values of A,B,C,D such that (A-D)/(B-C) is NOT equal to -5? Why or why not?

Pi Han Goh - 4 years, 1 month ago

That was my way too!

Geoff Collinson - 4 years, 1 month ago
M B
May 8, 2017

Since we have nothing to do with d, Let d=0, then a-c=3b; and a-b=2c; then subtracting both we get c=2b, resubstitute this in a-c=3b we get a=5b, hence write all in terms of b in question we get 5b/-b = -5

You have shown that the expression is equal to -5 when d=0, but how do you know that the expression is still equal to -5 if d=0 is not fulfilled?

Pi Han Goh - 4 years, 1 month ago
Betty BellaItalia
May 11, 2017

Frank O'Shea
May 10, 2017

How does a 15-year old get to set up these?

Anywhere here is my brute force solution:

Re-write the two equations and eliminate a by addition to give d = 2b -c

Now eliminate a by subtraction to give d = 4b - c

From these, b = 0 and c = - d

So the required quotient is -5d/5 = -5

I am pleased with myself, rather in the way that a man who digs a ditch with a shovel is when he sees a JCB do the job more elegantly and quickly.

FOS

I subtracted the two equations to get d = 2 b c d = 2b- c , but I am not able to get d = 4 b c d = 4b -c . Can you explain how you got d = 4 b c d = 4b - c ? Thanks

Pranshu Gaba - 4 years, 1 month ago
Matthew Feig
May 12, 2017

I was most interested to know if the values of 2 and 3 had to be 'specially chosen' to make the requested value of a d b c \frac{a-d}{b-c} come out to a constant like -5 independent of a, b, c, d.

So I just redid the algebra for the general case of a b c d = X \frac{a-b}{c-d}=X and a c b d = Y \frac{a-c}{b-d}=Y .

Following linear algebra steps similar to those used by Tom Engelsman, Arjen Vreugdenhil, and others, the result is a d b c = X Y 1 X Y \frac{a-d}{b-c}=\frac{XY-1}{X-Y} .

(I may upload the steps later.) So the dependence on the particular values of a, b, c, d always drops out. I can't say I really understand why, though, or how the repeating structure of the three fractions leads to this.

input in WolframAlpha solve (a-b)/(c-d)=2, (a-c)/(b-d)=3, m=(a-d)/(b-c) result: m=-5

I tried numbers. I set d = 1 d = 1 .

The easiest way to solve this is to try to set the first numerator, c d c - d , to 1. So I set c = 2 c = 2 .

To pick different numbers, I chose b = 3 b = 3 , which meant a = 5 a = 5 .

Well, 5 2 3 1 = 3 2 \frac {5 - 2}{3 - 1} = \frac {3}{2} , so, that doesn't work.

So I set b = 4 b = 4 and a = 6 a = 6 .

Since 6 2 4 1 = 4 3 \frac {6 - 2}{4 - 1} = \frac {4}{3} , that doesn't work either. But I figured let me keep the 6 6 since it equals 2 × 3 2 \times 3 .

So then I tired setting c = 3 c = 3 , which meant I had to set b = 2 b = 2 , which worked because 6 3 2 1 = 3 \frac {6 - 3}{2 - 1} = 3 .

Now plug in 6 1 2 3 = 5 \frac {6 - 1}{2 - 3} = -5 .

Good try. You have shown that a d b c = 5 \dfrac{a-d}{b-c} = - 5 when d = 1 , c = 2 d= 1, c= 2 . But is there another possible value of a d b c \dfrac{a-d}{b-c} if d = 1 , c = 2 d=1,c=2 is not fulfilled?

Pi Han Goh - 4 years, 1 month ago

By componendo and dividendo on the given information, we get (b-d)(c-d)=1/2 Also, If (a-d)/(b-c)=k, (4/3)[(b-d)/(c-d)]=(k+1)/(k-1) Putting the value of (b-d)/(c-d)=1/2 we get k=-5

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