Christmas Streak 10/88: Two Strange To Be Strange

I have two distinct, fair, six-sided dice that have positive integers on their sides. Neither of the dice is a "normal" die (i.e., with 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 on the sides).

Interestingly, the probability distribution of the sum of rolling these two dice is exactly the same as that of the sum of rolling 2 "normal" dice.

Let the numbers on the first die be ( a 1 , a 2 , a 3 , a 4 , a 5 , a 6 ) , (a_1, a_2, a_3, a_4, a_5, a_6), and those on the second ( b 1 , b 2 , b 3 , b 4 , b 5 , b 6 ) , (b_1, b_2, b_3, b_4, b_5, b_6), where a 1 a 2 a 6 a_1\leq a_2 \leq\cdots\leq a_6 and b 1 b 2 b 6 . b_1\leq b_2 \leq \cdots\leq b_6.

Submit your answer as the product of these two 6-digit integers: a 1 a 2 a 3 a 4 a 5 a 6 × b 1 b 2 b 3 b 4 b 5 b 6 . \overline{a_1 a_2 a_3 a_4 a_5 a_6} \times \overline{b_1 b_2 b_3 b_4 b_5 b_6 }.

The dice above have 1,1,2,2,4,8 and 1,2,3,3,4,4 on their sides.  Their sum can produce the same numbers (2-12) as the sum of two ordinary dice, but not with the same probability distribution. The dice above have 1,1,2,2,4,8 and 1,2,3,3,4,4 on their sides. Their sum can produce the same numbers (2-12) as the sum of two ordinary dice, but not with the same probability distribution.


The answer is 16462241712.

This section requires Javascript.
You are seeing this because something didn't load right. We suggest you, (a) try refreshing the page, (b) enabling javascript if it is disabled on your browser and, finally, (c) loading the non-javascript version of this page . We're sorry about the hassle.

3 solutions

Boi (보이)
Oct 7, 2017

We need to use generating functions .

A normal dice can be expressed as ( x + x 2 + x 3 + x 4 + x 5 + x 6 ) , (x+x^2+x^3+x^4+x^5+x^6), where throwing two normal dices would be

( x + x 2 + x 3 + x 4 + x 5 + x 6 ) ( x + x 2 + x 3 + x 4 + x 5 + x 6 ) = x 2 + 2 x 3 + 3 x 4 + 4 x 5 + 5 x 6 + 6 x 7 + 5 x 8 + 4 x 9 + 3 x 10 + 2 x 11 + x 12 . (x+x^2+x^3+x^4+x^5+x^6)(x+x^2+x^3+x^4+x^5+x^6)=x^2+2x^3+3x^4+4x^5+5x^6+6x^7+5x^8+4x^9+3x^{10}+2x^{11}+x^{12}.

The exponents express the sum; the coefficients express the number of cases.


Then let f ( x ) = ( x + x 2 + x 3 + x 4 + x 5 + x 6 ) ( x + x 2 + x 3 + x 4 + x 5 + x 6 ) . f(x)=(x+x^2+x^3+x^4+x^5+x^6)(x+x^2+x^3+x^4+x^5+x^6).

Let g ( x ) g(x) and h ( x ) h(x) be the generating functions of the two dices, respectively.

f ( x ) = g ( x ) h ( x ) , f(x)=g(x)h(x), but we all know that the sum of the coefficients of g ( x ) g(x) and h ( x ) h(x) should be 6 6 respectively.

Then g ( 1 ) = h ( 1 ) = 6. g(1)=h(1)=6.

We all know that both g ( x ) g(x) and h ( x ) h(x) should have x x as their factor.


Since f ( x ) = ( x + x 2 + x 3 + x 4 + x 5 + x 6 ) 2 = { x ( x 2 + x + 1 ) ( x 3 + 1 ) } 2 = x 2 ( x + 1 ) 2 ( x 2 x + 1 ) 2 ( x 2 + x + 1 ) 2 , f(x)=(x+x^2+x^3+x^4+x^5+x^6)^2=\{x(x^2+x+1)(x^3+1)\}^2=x^2\cdot (x+1)^2\cdot (x^2-x+1)^2\cdot (x^2+x+1)^2,

f ( 1 ) = g ( 1 ) h ( 1 ) = 1 2 2 2 1 2 3 2 . f(1)=g(1)h(1)=1^2\cdot 2^2\cdot 1^2\cdot 3^2.

The only way of dividing this (without making g ( x ) g(x) and h ( x ) h(x) equal, of course) is:

g ( x ) = x ( x + 1 ) ( x 2 + x + 1 ) g(x)=x(x+1)(x^2+x+1) and h ( x ) = x ( x + 1 ) ( x 2 x + 1 ) 2 ( x 2 + x + 1 ) 2 . h(x)=x(x+1)(x^2-x+1)^2(x^2+x+1)^2.


Expanding both expressions, we get

g ( x ) = ( x 2 + x ) { ( x 2 + x ) + 1 } = x 4 + 2 x 3 + x 2 + x 2 + x = x 4 + 2 x 3 + 2 x 2 + x , g(x)=(x^2+x)\{(x^2+x)+1\}=x^4+2x^3+x^2+x^2+x=x^4+2x^3+2x^2+x,

h ( x ) = { ( x 2 + x ) ( x 2 x + 1 ) } { ( x 2 + 1 + x ) ( x 2 + 1 x ) } = ( x 4 + x ) ( x 4 + x 2 + 1 ) = x 8 + x 6 + x 5 + x 4 + x 3 + x . h(x)=\{(x^2+x)(x^2-x+1)\}\{(x^2+1+x)(x^2+1-x)\}=(x^4+x)(x^4+x^2+1)=x^8+x^6+x^5+x^4+x^3+x.

Therefore, the two dices would be ( 1 , 2 , 2 , 3 , 3 , 4 ) (1,~2,~2,~3,~3,~4) and ( 1 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 8 ) . (1,~3,~4,~5,~6,~8).

122334 × 134568 = 16462241712 . \therefore~122334\times134568=\boxed{16462241712}.

Amazing way of converting a seemingly certainly casework-based problem into a nice mathematical one! Great solution

Alex Li - 3 years, 7 months ago

Log in to reply

Thank you! :)

Boi (보이) - 3 years, 7 months ago

I'm so happy that I came up with an identical solution! Well not really identical, I did not came up with the smart idea of substituting 1 in the polynomial, but still trying some options I came up with the right solution. You might want to explain why you can't factor the polynomials any further - that's because you really factor x 6 1 x^6-1 , which divided by x 1 x-1 and multiplied by x x is the polynomial that describe a die. The roots of such a polynomial are the unity roots of order 6, and we want to factor it into polynomials with integer coefficients, which are irreducible over the integers. A polynomial x n 1 x^n-1 can be factored into cyclotomic polynomials of orders that divide n, and they all are irreducible. For n=6 it's the 1st cyclotomic polynomial x 1 x-1 (which we ignore as we divide by it), the 2nd cyclotomic polynomial x + 1 x+1 , the 3rd cyclotomic polynomial x 2 + x + 1 x^2+x+1 , and the 6th cyclotomic polynomial x 2 x + 1 x^2-x+1 . The rest is exactly as shown in your solution.

me myself - 3 years, 7 months ago

Question: how do you explain that the particular g(x) and h(x) you chose is the only way this is possible? I know they cannot be equal given the context of the problem, but am confused as to why there is one unique solution.

Jackson Forner - 3 years, 7 months ago

Log in to reply

Let's say a = 1 , b = 2 , c = 1 , d = 3. a=1,~b=2,~c=1,~d=3.

Try and split a 2 b 2 c 2 d 2 a^2b^2c^2d^2 into two numbers such that each of them are equal to 6 and contains a a , except a b c d abcd and a b c d . abcd.

Boi (보이) - 3 years, 7 months ago

Log in to reply

Okay, I think I see what you are saying. Thanks!

Jackson Forner - 3 years, 7 months ago

Log in to reply

@Jackson Forner Hehe, no problem! ^^

Boi (보이) - 3 years, 7 months ago
Arjen Vreugdenhil
Oct 16, 2017

The solution with generating functions seems to be the most general. However, one can often find some of the possibilities as follows.

First, I subtract one from each of the two six-sided dice. This does not significantly alter the problem. Instead of rolling a six-sided die, one could also roll a three-sided "die" and a two-sided "die": { 0 , 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 } = { 0 , 1 , 2 } + { 0 , 3 } D 6 = D 3 + 3 D 2 . \{0,1,2,3,4,5\} = \{0,1,2\} + \{0,3\}\ \ \ \ \ \ \mathbb D_6 = \mathbb D_3 + 3\mathbb D_2. Or also, { 0 , 1 , 2 , 3 , 4 , 5 } = { 0 , 1 } + { 0 , 2 , 4 } D 6 = D 2 + 2 D 3 . \{0,1,2,3,4,5\} = \{0,1\} + \{0,2,4\}\ \ \ \ \ \ \mathbb D_6 = \mathbb D_2 + 2\mathbb D_3. The sum of two six-sided dice may therefore be written as D 6 + D 6 = ( D 3 + 3 D 2 ) + ( D 2 + 2 D 3 ) . \mathbb D_6 + \mathbb D_6 = (\mathbb D_3 + 3\mathbb D_2) + (\mathbb D_2 + 2\mathbb D_3). The terms can be shuffled to yield a different pair of D 3 / D 2 \mathbb D_3/\mathbb D_2 combinations: D 6 + D 6 = ( D 3 + D 2 ) + ( 3 D 2 + 2 D 3 ) . \mathbb D_6 + \mathbb D_6 = (\mathbb D_3 + \mathbb D_2) + (3\mathbb D_2 + 2\mathbb D_3). This describes the pair of dice we are looking for. They are known as Sicherman dice . We add the "1" back in: D A = 1 + D 3 + D 2 = 1 + { 0 , 1 , 2 } + { 0 , 1 } = { 1 , 2 , 2 , 3 , 3 , 4 } ; \mathbb D_A = 1 + \mathbb D_3 + \mathbb D_2 = 1 + \{0,1,2\} + \{0,1\} = \{1,2,2,3,3,4\}; D B = 1 + 3 D 2 + 2 D 3 = 1 + { 0 , 3 } + { 0 , 2 , 4 } = { 1 , 3 , 4 , 5 , 6 , 8 } . \mathbb D_B = 1 + 3\mathbb D_2 + 2\mathbb D_3 = 1 + \{0,3\} + \{0,2,4\} = \{1,3,4,5,6,8\}.


Note . There are other ways to recombine the terms of D 6 + D 6 \mathbb D_6 + \mathbb D_6 , resulting in different set of dice with this property. For instance, with D 6 + D 6 = ( D 3 + 3 D 2 ) + ( D 3 + 3 D 2 ) = ( D 3 + D 3 ) + ( 3 D 2 + 3 D 2 ) \mathbb D_6 + \mathbb D_6 = (\mathbb D_3 + 3\mathbb D_2) + (\mathbb D_3 + 3\mathbb D_2) \\ = (\mathbb D_3 + \mathbb D_3) + (3\mathbb D_2 + 3\mathbb D_2) we get a nine-sided die and a four-sided die: 1 + D 3 + D 3 = 1 + { 0 , 1 , 2 } + { 0 , 1 , 2 } = { 1 , 2 , 2 , 3 , 3 , 3 , 4 , 4 , 5 } ; 1 + \mathbb D_3 + \mathbb D_3 = 1 + \{0,1,2\} + \{0,1,2\} = \{1,2,2,3,3,3,4,4,5\}; 1 + 3 D 2 + 3 D 2 = 1 + { 0 , 3 } + { 0 , 3 } = { 1 , 4 , 4 , 7 } . 1 + 3\mathbb D_2 + 3\mathbb D_2 = 1 + \{0,3\} + \{0,3\} = \{1,4,4,7\}. Can you find a different solution with a nine-sided die and a four-sided die?

If it's a little late in the evening and the brain is no longer well-equipped for math, brute-forcing is your friend.

1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
#!/bin/env python  
from itertools import product, combinations_with_replacement  
from collections import Counter  
cgen=lambda a,b: Counter(map(lambda x:x[0]+x[1],product(a,b)))  
c=cgen(range(1,7),range(1,7))  
for a, b in combinations_with_replacement(combinations_with_replacement(range(1,10),6),2):
   if c == cgen(a,b):
      print(str(a) + ' x ' + str(b) + ' = ' +str(int(''.join(str(d) for d in a))*int(''.join(str(d) for d in b))))  

1
2
(1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 4) x (1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 8) = 16462241712  #<--- this is the one.  
(1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) x (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6) = 15241383936  #<--- normal dice  

I don't know how to properly format source code here. Had to do it in a way to avoid indents. Looks terrible, but will work.

To format, enclose your code in lines with ` ` ` (three back-apostrophe/grave accents, but without the spaces). I did the formatting for you-- hope you don't mind.

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 3 years, 7 months ago

Log in to reply

Ah so it's normal markdown syntax. Should have thought of that :)

Thanks for the edit, had to correct the code/remove some of the tricks i had to add to make the markdown parser not ruin the code.

The markdown engine for the preview does not always perform in the same way as the backend engine, so there was a little trial and error.

Dani Gehtdichnixan - 3 years, 7 months ago

The only chance of adding 2 is 1 + 1. Therefore each die will have a 1. To add 12 we have 11 + 1, 10 + 2, 9 + 3, 8 + 4, 7 + 5 and 6 + 6. If a die has an 11, the other can only have "ones", which implies having 6 times 12. It does not work. If a die has a 10, the other can have only a "2", and the rest "ones", so it would have 5 times "11". It does not work either. Following this reasoning, we do not have a partner that adds up to 12 that works until we reach 9 + 3: 3 - 9 2 - b2 2 - b3 1 - b4 1 - b5 1 - 1 With this distribution we obtain 1x12,2x11 and 3x10. But no combination of b2, b3, b4 and b5 is possible to generate the rest of the sums.

The following combination, 8 + 4, if it allows it: we fix 1-1, we generate 2x11 with the two "3", and 3x10 with two "2" and a 4 + 6. The rest, by symmetry is easily deduced:

4 - 8 3 - 6 3 - 5 2 - 4 2 - 3 1 - 1

JUAN MANUEL CRUZ MORALES - 2 years, 1 month ago

0 pending reports

×

Problem Loading...

Note Loading...

Set Loading...