[College Calc 01-01. The Reals] #03

Calculus Level 4

Choose all sets that have the least upper bound property .

{ A = { 1 n n Z + } { 1 n n Z + } B = { m n m , n Z + , n > m 2 } C = { 0. x 1 x 2 x 3 x i { 8 , 9 } } \begin{cases} A = \left\{\left.-\dfrac{1}{\sqrt{n}}\,\right|\, n\in \mathbb{Z}_+\right\}\cup \ \left\{\left.\dfrac{1}{\sqrt{n}}\,\right|\, n\in \mathbb{Z}_+\right\} \\ \, \\ B = \left\{\left.\dfrac{m}{n}\,\right|\, m,n\in \mathbb{Z}_+,~n>m^2\right\}\\ \, \\ C = \left\{\overline{0.x_1x_2x_3\cdots}\,|\, x_i \in \{8,9\} \right\} \end{cases}

Notations:

  • Z + \mathbb{Z}_+ denotes the set of positive integers.
  • a \overline{\phantom{a}\!\!\!\!\cdots} denotes the concatenation of the values overlined. For example, if a = 2 a=2 , b = 3 b=3 , and c = 4 c=4 , then a 0. b c 8 = 20.348 \overline{a0.bc8}=20.348 .

This is a part of the College Calc problem set. You can find more problems here .

A A only B B only C C only A , B A,B only B , C B,C only A , C A,C only A , B , C A,B,C None are

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1 solution

Boi (보이)
Oct 28, 2020

A

We can easily check that sup { 1 n n Z + } = 0 A . \sup \left\{\left.-\dfrac{1}{\sqrt{n}}\,\right|\, n\in \mathbb{Z}_+\right\} = 0\notin A. Thus A A does not have the l.u.b. property.


B

As for B , B, suppose it does not satisfy the l.u.b. property. Let X X be a subset of B B such that

sup X = k B . \sup X = k\notin B.

Clearly 0 < k 1 0< k\leq 1 which means that if n > m 2 n>m^2 and m n > k 2 \dfrac{m}{n}>\dfrac{k}{2} then 1 n = n n > m n > k 2 \dfrac{1}{\sqrt{n}}=\dfrac{\sqrt{n}}{n}>\dfrac{m}{n}>\dfrac{k}{2} such that

0 < n < 4 k 2 . 0<n<\frac{4}{k^2}.

Notice, however, that the number of such m n \dfrac{m}{n} is finite, as the choice of n n is now finite. This means there exists a maximal element c c of C C such that

c < k c<k

which is a contradiction, because c c itself would be the l.u.b of X X . Therefore, B B has the l.u.b. property


C

Again, suppose it does not satisfy the l.u.b. property, and let X X be a subset of C C such that

sup X = k C . \sup X = k\notin C.

Clearly 0.888 = 8 9 < k < 1 = 0.999 . 0.888\cdots = \dfrac{8}{9} < k < 1 = 0.999\cdots.

In the decimal expansion of k , k, locate the digit d d that is neither 8 nor 9, and is closest to the decimal point. (Of course, excluding the starting 0.) Suppose d d is at the n n -th decimal place. If it is zero, the consecutive zeros after that point must have been finite.*

Then you will notice that the largest 0. x 1 x 2 x 3 < k \overline{0.x_1x_2x_3\cdots} < k can ever be is k = 0. x 1 x 2 ( x n 1 1 ) 999 . k'=\overline{0.x_1x_2\cdots (x_{n-1}-1) 999\cdots}. It can never be larger.

Differently said, each x X C x\in X\subset C , since it satisfies x < k , x < k, must also satisfy x k . x \leq k'. This is a contradiction, because sup X = k k \sup X = k'\neq k . Therefore C C does indeed have the l.u.b. property.

(*This finite consecutive zeros condition is due to the fact that if the consecutive zeros were infinite, we can subtract 1 1 from the previous digit and replace all zeros with 9 9 without changing the value of k , k, which then means that k C . k\in C. )

Hello, I am confused. Could you please clarify your results ?

The least-upper-bound of sets A, B or C, exists, but has not to be necessarily included in the set itself for the sake of the definition. Indeed, according to the Wikipedia article you linked : 'The least-upper-bound property states that any non-empty set of real numbers that has an upper bound must have a least upper bound in real numbers.' They say '... in real numbers.'

This sounds to me... Take set A, for instance. Even if 0 is NOT in A, it is an upper bound for it and because each upper bound of A is greater or equal to 0 , then sup A = 0. So set A have the l.u.b. property. Don't you agree ?

Cédric Bohnert - 7 months ago

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That statement in Wikipedia is restricted to the set of real numbers. For a set X X to have the l.u.b. property means that for any bounded-above subset S S of X X the supremum of S S exists within X . X.

If we substitute X = R , X=\mathbb{R}, we indeed have the statement "Any bounded-above subset of R \mathbb{R} has a supremum in R . \mathbb{R}. " Read this section of the article .

Boi (보이) - 7 months ago

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Sure. We agree there but not in the application of this definition. Each element of set A A is a real number since there are mostly irrationals. It is bounded above by 0 0 . It is non-empty because 1 -1 is in it. Therefore the supremum exists. This s u p A sup A needs not to live inside the set for it to exist. This is what I would like to highlight in your correction and, that means all three sets A A , B B and C C satisfy the l.u.b statement. I hope it is clearer. Please think about the set X = { ( 1 ) n n R , n Z + } X =\{ { \frac{(-1)^n}{n} \in \mathbb{R}, n \in \mathbb{Z}_+ } \} . Is there a l.u.b ? Yes. the real 1 2 \frac{1}{2} is lesser than all reals in X X and it lives in the set X X itself : 1 2 X \frac{1}{2} \in X . Therefore we can even say : m a x X = s u p X = 1 2 max X = sup X = \frac{1}{2} . This example shows what you are saying. Now please think about the set Y = { 1 1 n R , n Z + } Y = \{ 1-\frac{1}{n} \in \mathbb{R}, n \in \mathbb{Z}_+ \} . It obviously has a l.u.b but not a maximum. Because the l.u.b is not in Y Y : 1 Y 1 \notin Y .

Cédric Bohnert - 7 months ago

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@Cédric Bohnert Yes, and those two sets X X has a supremum in R \mathbb{R} because R \mathbb{R} satisfies the l.u.b. property and X X is a subset of it -- but this has nothing to do with the l.u.b. property of X . X. If you want to say that X X has an l.u.b. property, then each subsets of X X must have a supermum in X . X.

When we say that X X has a l.u.b. property, we're talking about its subsets , not the set itself.

Boi (보이) - 7 months ago

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@Boi (보이) I am sorry for the confusion, Boi. I now understand your meaning better and it helps me to understand where I am wrong in your exam and, more important, the concept of l.u.b. Thank you for your replies.

Let me try to explain what is the difference about the l.u.b property of R \mathbb{R} and of a set X X .

In the example defined in my last reply, set Y Y does not satisfy the l.u.b property because every subsets of Y Y does not contain 1.

Indeed, if one of its infinite subsets would contain 1 1 , then there would always exist a rank n 0 n_0 , where 1 1 n 1 , n n 0 1-\frac{1}{n} \geq 1, n \geq n_0 , every subsequences x i = 1 1 i , i n 0 x_i = 1-\frac{1}{i}, i \geq n_0 being monoticaly increasing. Hence we shall always find an element x i 0 x_i0 greater than 1 1 .

This is of a course wrong. This shows 1 1 is never in a subset of Y Y . Hope I am clear and true. :)

Cédric Bohnert - 7 months ago

Hello again, Boi. Well, after a bit more thinking about your first set A A , I am still confused with your answer.

You say "For a set X X to have the l.u.b. property means that for any bounded-above subset S S of X X the supremum of S S exists within X X .".

Let me apply this definition to the set A A . Your counter-example s u p { 1 n , n Z + } = 0 sup \{ -\frac{1}{\sqrt{n}} , n \in \mathbb{Z}_+\} = 0 is not a well chosen one, to me. Indeed, this subset has 0 as l.u.b in R \mathbb{R} but not in A A itself. We have clearly 1 n < 0 < 1 -\frac{1}{\sqrt{n}} < 0 < 1 for all n Z + n \in \mathbb{Z}_+ , so that, it is bounded above and 1 A 1 \in A . This upper bound is therefore the least upper bound of { 1 n , n Z + } \{ -\frac{1}{\sqrt{n}} , n \in \mathbb{Z}_+\} in A A .

Don't you agree ?

Cédric Bohnert - 7 months ago

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@Cédric Bohnert That is indeed true, I've updated the problem.

Boi (보이) - 6 months, 4 weeks ago

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@Boi (보이) I'm still confused. 1 seems to be the least upper bound of A and is contained in A.

James Wilson - 5 months, 1 week ago

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@James Wilson The upper bound of A is not what is important; the least upper bound of any bounded-above subset of A must be in A.

Boi (보이) - 5 months ago

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@Boi (보이) I just read the Wikipedia page carefully, and I understand now. You are right. Best wishes.

James Wilson - 5 months ago

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