Compare the two quantities

Geometry Level 1

A square and a circle have the same perimeter.

Which has a larger area, the square or the circle?

The square The circle They have the same area

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24 solutions

Hana Wehbi
Jun 15, 2017

First, since we are comparing areas, we can pick numbers and make our calculations easier. Suppose the radius of the circle is 2 2 , thus the circumference is 4 π 4\pi which is equal to the perimeter of the square.

Thus, the side of the square is π \pi .

The area of the square is π 2 = 9.8696 \pi^2= 9.8696 .

The area of the circle is 4 × π = 12.5664 4 \times \pi = 12.5664 .

We can conclude that the area of the circle is greater.

But we could also solve this more abstractly. Suppose the perimeter of the square and the circumference of the circle both equal to 4 x 4x . Then each side of the square would be x x and its area would be x 2 x^2 . The radius of the circle would be 4 x 2 π \frac{4x}{2\pi} or 2 x π \frac{2x}{\pi} , so its area would be π ( 2 x π ) 2 \pi (\frac{2x}{\pi})^2 or 4 π \frac{4}{\pi} x 2 x^2 . Now, we can compare the area of the square, x 2 x^2 to the area of the circle 4 π \frac{4}{\pi} x 2 x^2 .

Since 1 < 4 π 1< \frac{4}{\pi} , multiply both sides by x 2 x^2 to obtain x 2 < 4 π x 2 x^2 < \frac{4}{\pi} x^2 .

Thus, the area of the circle is greater.

Moderator note:

If s s is the length of a side and n n the number of sides of a regular polygon, then the perimeter is s n sn and the area is ( s 2 ) ( n ) 4 tan ( π / n ) . \frac{(s^2)(n)} {4 \tan(\pi/n)}.

If we fix the perimeter at 1, then the area is

1 4 n tan ( π / n ) . \frac{1}{4n\tan(\pi/n)} .

Graphing this gets an increasing function that approaches 1 4 π 0.0796 \frac{1}{4\pi} \approx 0.0796 as n n goes to infinity, which is the area of a circle with a circumference of 1.

Along the lines of this question, how do we prove that out of any closed shape with constant perimeter, circle has the largest area?

Yash Karnik - 3 years, 11 months ago

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The perimeter should be at least less than that of the circle or equal to it. The challenge master note is very helpful here. Thank you.

Hana Wehbi - 3 years, 11 months ago

In mathematics we must be exact. It is not correct to just pick any square and any circle which happen to have the same perimeter nor is it correct to use equality sign between the exact value and rounded value.

Jesse Nieminen - 3 years, 11 months ago

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But l did mention that both polygons have same perimeter so we are dealing with a specific case here. Also, we can have a circle and square with same perimeter.

Hana Wehbi - 3 years, 11 months ago

If the perimeter is defined as including the corners of the square then the circle would be larger. If the perimeter is the "sides" of the square then the circle would be smaller. Is this correct?

Jim Turner - 3 years, 11 months ago

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No, it is not correct. We have consider the circumference or the perimeter as the measure of the distance around our shape and continue accordingly.

Hana Wehbi - 3 years, 11 months ago

This is very smart

Emily Redburn - 3 years, 11 months ago

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Thank you ;)

Hana Wehbi - 3 years, 11 months ago

Pretty obvious ..... equate circumference and perimeter. You get 4 side=2 pi*r a=2r/pi Area of square = 4r^2/pi^2 and area of circle= pi * r^2 4/pi^2 < pi.... so circle has larger area. Unfortunately I clicked on square and I realized my misfortune.

Shrinath Arolkar - 3 years, 11 months ago

In your explanation you state the example's "circumference is 4pi". You then go on to say the "area of the circle is 4 x pi". In which case you appear to be saying the circumference of the circle equals its area, as 4pi and (4 x pi) are the same thing.

G.R. Townley - 3 years, 11 months ago

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Not that I'm disputing the answer, only to say that using an example where the circle's radius is 2, produces an illustration of the solution that is not a clear as you might wish.

G.R. Townley - 3 years, 11 months ago

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But l did prove it abstractly in the second paragraph. Check the rest of my proof. Also, the challenge master note is so helpful here. Thank you.

Hana Wehbi - 3 years, 11 months ago

For a square: P = 4 L 1 A 1 = ( P 4 ) 2 = P 2 16 P=4L_1\implies A_1=\left(\frac{P}{4}\right)^2=\frac{P^2}{16} For a circle: P = L 2 , L 2 = 2 π r , A 2 = π r 2 = π ( P 2 π ) 2 = P 2 4 π P=L_2,\space L_2=2\pi r,\space A_2=\pi r^2=\pi\left(\frac{P}{2\pi}\right)^2=\frac{P^2}{4\pi} Now we have to compare A 1 A_1 to A 2 A_2 : P 2 4 4 P 2 4 π \frac{P^2}{4\cdot 4}\space \square \space \frac{P^2}{4\pi}

π < 4 4 π < 16 A 2 > A 1 \pi<4\implies 4\pi<16\implies A_2>A_1 . So, the circle has a higher area.

Victor Dumbrava - 3 years, 4 months ago

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Thank you. I would write that as a solution.

Hana Wehbi - 3 years, 4 months ago

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I would too, but is it possible to answer a question that is so old? FWIW, there is no text field for "Write your answer here"

Victor Dumbrava - 3 years, 4 months ago

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@Victor Dumbrava I would tag any staff memeber and ask for help. Always new ideas are welcomed here.

Hana Wehbi - 3 years, 4 months ago
Marta Reece
Jun 15, 2017

4 a = 2 π r 4a=2\pi r

a = 2 π r 4 = π r 2 a=\dfrac{2\pi r}{4}=\dfrac{\pi r}{2}

A r e a = a 2 = ( π r 2 ) 2 = π 2 r 2 4 2.48 r 2 < 3.14 r 2 π r 2 = A r e a Area_{\square}=a^2=\left(\dfrac{\pi r}{2}\right)^2=\dfrac{\pi^2r^2}{4}\approx2.48r^2<3.14r^2\approx\pi r^2=Area_{\bigcirc}

Nice, Thank you.

Hana Wehbi - 3 years, 12 months ago

I also used this method but miscalculated somewhere that showed the square has bigger area.

A Former Brilliant Member - 3 years, 11 months ago

Elegant! -Lee Slutes

Lee Slutes - 3 years, 11 months ago

Yeah accidentally thought that the perimeter of a square was 2a so stuffed up my calculations haha. Oh well.

Dani Watson - 3 years, 11 months ago

I used this as well :)

Shakir Ahmad - 3 years, 11 months ago

More simple. Great!

Elder Santos - 3 years, 11 months ago

Note: The picture is not drawn to scale.

One way of solving problems like this is to set a value for the radius of the circle or side length of the square.

Set r a d i u s = 1 radius=1 . Then the circumference is 2 π r = 2 π ( 1 ) 6.283185307 2 \pi r=2 \pi (1) \approx 6.283185307 and the area is π r 2 = π ( 1 2 ) 3.141592654 \pi r^2=\pi (1^2) \approx 3.141592654

Since they have equal perimeters, compute for the side length of the square from the circumference of the circle.

6.283185307 = 4 x 6.283185307=4x \implies x 1.570796327 x \approx 1.570796327

So the area of the square is 1.57079632 7 2 2.4674011 1.570796327^2 \approx 2.4674011

It can be seen that the area of the circle is larger than the area of the square.

Nice solution. Thank you for posting it.

Hana Wehbi - 3 years, 12 months ago

** DISCLAIMER: Picture not drawn to scale. *

Ivan Fan - 3 years, 11 months ago

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The picture is not necessarily not drawn to scale. But thanks, I noted it in my solution.

A Former Brilliant Member - 3 years, 11 months ago

With a fixed perimeter the area of a polygon increases as the number of edges increases. If we think of a circle with an infinite number of edges it is clear that it must have the larger area.

Matthew Lambert - 3 years, 11 months ago
Wilmer Rojas
Jun 26, 2017

Let r r be the radius of the circle and a a be the side of the square.

We know that P c = 2 π r P_c = 2 \pi r and P s = 4 a P_s = 4a are the same, and we want to know which area is larger: that of the circle or of the square.

We know that A c = π r 2 A_c = \pi r^2 and A s = a 2 A_s = a^2 . Since we don't know the values of r r or a a , we rewrite them as:

r = P c 2 π r = \frac{P_c}{2 \pi} and a = P s 4 a = \frac{P_s}{4} . Which allows to rewrite our area equations as:

A c = π ( P c 2 π ) 2 A_c = \pi (\frac{P_c}{2 \pi}) \ ^2 and A s = ( P s 4 ) 2 A_s = (\frac{P_s}{4}) \ ^2 .

Which leaves us with:

A c = P c 2 4 π \ A_c = \frac{P_c ^2}{4 \pi} \ and A s = P s 2 4 2 \ A_s = \frac{P_s ^2}{4^2} \ .

Since 4 π < 4 2 4 \pi < 4^2 , we can conclude that when P c = P s P_c = P_s , then A c > A s A_c > A_s for any value of P P .

Nice algebra work. Just out of curiousity, can we prove that pi < 4 ?

Pi Han Goh - 3 years, 11 months ago

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There was something like this ( π = 4 \pi = 4 ) a few years ago. I am sure you might have seen this

Mahdi Raza - 1 year ago

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Yup .

Pi Han Goh - 1 year ago

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@Pi Han Goh 🤣🤣 Your explanation should be marked as a separate option Trolled \boxed{\text{Trolled}}

Mahdi Raza - 1 year ago
Leonardo Vannini
Jun 26, 2017

Let r r be the radius of the circle and l l the side of the square.

P e r i m e t e r c i r c l e = P e r i m e t e r s q u a r e 2 π r = 4 l π r = 2 l π 2 r 2 = 4 l 2 π A c i r c l e = 4 A s q u a r e A c i r c l e = 4 π A s q u a r e > A s q u a r e { Perimeter }_{ circle }={ Perimeter }_{ square }\Leftrightarrow 2\pi r=4l\Leftrightarrow \pi r=2l\Leftrightarrow { \pi }^{ 2 }{ r }^{ 2 }=4{ l }^{ 2 }\Leftrightarrow \pi { A }_{ circle }=4{ A }_{ square }\Leftrightarrow { A }_{ circle }=\frac { 4 }{ \pi } { A }_{ square }>{ A }_{ square }\quad \blacksquare

Mohammad Khaza
Jun 25, 2017

suppose,both of their perimeter is 1.

in case of square,4x=1

         0r,x=1/4=.25

in case of circle, 2πr=1

             or, r=1/2π=.16

now,the area of square is, x^2=(o.25)^2=1/16=0.06

and the area of circle is, πr^2=0.08

so,the area of circle is bigger.

Why can we suppose that their perimeters are both 1? What if we set their perimeters as 2 instead? Would the answer change?

Pi Han Goh - 3 years, 11 months ago
Rocco Dalto
Jun 25, 2017

Let r r be the radius of the circle and x x be the side of the square.

Let P s P_{s} be perimeter of the square and P c P_{c} be perimeter of the circle.

P s = P c 4 x = 2 π r r = 2 x π A r e a = 4 x 2 π > x 2 = A r e a P_{s} = P_{c} \implies 4x = 2\pi r \implies r = \dfrac{2x}{\pi} \implies Area_{\bigcirc} = \dfrac{4x^2}{\pi} > x^2 = Area_{\square}

Thank you.

Hana Wehbi - 3 years, 11 months ago

Let r be the radius of the circle. Then the perimeter = circumference = 2 r pi, and the area = pi r^2. Then the perimeter of the square is = 2 r pi, so a side = (1/4) 2 r pi = r pi/2, and the area = (r pi/2)^2 = r^2*pi^2/4. . Since pi^2/4 > pi, the square has the larger area. Ed Gray

Edwin Gray - 3 years, 11 months ago

I was looking for the error in my analysis. It is not true that Pi^2/4 > pi. Feel better now. Edwin Gray

Edwin Gray - 3 years, 11 months ago
Shou Seiyo
Jun 29, 2017

The isoperimetric inequality states that, given any simple closed curve in the plane (like both the circumpherence and the square are) with a fixed perimeter, the circumpherence is the curve that surrounds a bigger area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isoperimetric_inequality

Oh wow! What a strong statement to solve such a standard question.

At least it gets the job done!

Pi Han Goh - 3 years, 11 months ago

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Yeah :-) It's "killing flies with a cannon", as we say in Spain, but, well, it works... :-D

Shou Seiyo - 3 years ago
Jerry Overmyer
Jun 29, 2017

I just remembered hearing years ago that a sphere maximizes volume based on surface area. Not sure why. So I just applied the same logic to conclude that the circle must maximize area based on perimeter. :-)

The circle has infinite area.

Israelle Skinner - 3 years, 11 months ago

I also remembered that/a similar point about a circle being the most efficient way to endorse a space (less perimeter for same area, so same perimeter = more area, but I still got it wrong!

I my case (I suspect many others too) my eyes, seeing the pictured examples shapes of a square with a greater area than the pictured circle overrode that logic, and ignored the written question (stating same perimeter) - The 2 images had the same height - in which case the square would have the greatest area. Rather than referring back to the question and the logic, I have a snap answer based on the images.

It's a bit like "the Stroop effect" - conflicting inputs can make for incorrect decisions (https://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/java/ready.html)

If a deliberate distraction, then that's fine, but the questioner should probably mention it in the solution. If accidental the effect of the images should really be considered when composing questions (if interpreting anything from the results).

Posting the question without the images? I strongly predict a far higher success rate :)

Will Gunby - 3 years, 11 months ago

What do you mean by "sphere maximizes volume based on surface area"? I don't think this is a proper phrase...

Pi Han Goh - 3 years, 11 months ago
Andrew Coulson
Jun 28, 2017

Suppose the perimeter of both shapes is 4 units.

Each side of the square is therefore 1 unit, so the square has an area of 1 × \times 1, i.e. 1.

The perimeter of the circle is 2 π r 2\pi r . So 2 π r 2\pi r = 4, and therefore r r = 4 2 π \frac{4}{2\pi} = 2 π \frac{2}{\pi} .

The area of the circle is π r 2 \pi r^{2} . Since r r = 2 π \frac{2}{\pi} , the area is therefore π × ( 2 π ) 2 \pi \times \left(\frac{2}{\pi}\right)^{2} = π × 4 π 2 \pi \times \frac{4}{\pi^{2}} = 4 π \frac{4}{\pi} = 1.27, which is larger than the area of the square.

Christian Buhl
Jun 27, 2017

p = p e r i m e t e r p = perimeter

Area of square = ( p / 4 ) 2 (p/4)^2 = p 2 / 16 p^2/16

Perimeter of circle = 2 r p i 2*r*pi

p = 2 r p i p = 2*r*pi

r = p / 2 p i p/2*pi

Area of circle = r 2 p i r^2*pi = ( p / 2 p i ) 2 p i (p/2*pi)^2*pi = p 2 / 4 p i p^2/4*pi

p 2 / 16 < p 2 / 4 p i p^2/16 < p^2/4*pi -> Area of square < Area of circle

This is the proper solution because it proves that the area of the circle is greater then the area of the square for any perimeter. My solution was identical to this in every step. Well done Christian.

Jose Alvarez - 3 years, 11 months ago
Jesse Nieminen
Jun 26, 2017

Let r r be the radius of the circle and x x be the side length of the square.

Now, 2 π r = 4 x π r = 2 x π r 2 = ( 2 x ) 2 π = 4 π x 2 > x 2 2\pi r = 4x \implies \pi r = 2x \implies \pi r^2 = \dfrac{\left(2x\right)^2}{\pi} = \dfrac4\pi x^2 > x^2 , since 0 < π < 4 0 < \pi < 4 .

Hence, the circle has larger area.

Nicholas Kross
Jun 26, 2017

A circle's area is A = 2 π r A = 2\pi r , and its perimeter is P = 2 π r P=2\pi r . A rectangle's area is A = s 2 A = s^2 (where s = side length), and its perimeter is P = 4 s P=4s .

2 π r = 4 s 2\pi r=4s . Some math later... r = ( 2 s / π ) r=(2s/\pi) .

Thus, the A of the circle is 4 s 2 / π 4s^2/\pi , which is bigger than s 2 s^2 (since 4 / π > 1 4/\pi > 1 ).

Vu Vincent
Jun 25, 2017

Let the side length of the square be m m and radius of the circle be r r . We have

{ 2 π r = 4 m π r 2 : m 2 \begin{cases} 2\pi r=4m \\ \pi r^2 :m^2\end{cases}

From the first eq. we have, by substitution:

m = π r 2 m 2 = π 2 r 2 4 \Rightarrow m=\frac { \pi r }{ 2 } \Leftrightarrow m^2=\frac { \pi^2 r^2 }{ 4 }

Plugging into the 2nd eq. ,as RHS represents the square's area and LHS represents the circle's area:

π r 2 : π 2 r 2 4 4 π r 2 : π 2 r 2 4 : π \pi r^{ 2 }:\frac { \pi ^{ 2 }r^{ 2 } }{ 4 } \\ \Rightarrow 4\pi r^{ 2 }:\pi ^{ 2 }r^{ 2 }\\ \Leftrightarrow 4:\pi

Now from this we conclude, easily, that the L H S > R H S LHS > RHS , or in other words:

A c i r c l e > A s q u a r e \boxed{A_{circle} > A_{square}}

Rahul Singh
Jul 2, 2017

let r= radius of circle and a=side length of square. 2 p i r = 4 a 2*pi*r=4*a (Given) implies that ( p i / 2 ) = ( a / r ) (pi/2)=(a/r) squaring both sides, ( p i / 2 ) 2 = ( a / r ) 2 (pi/2)^2 =(a/r)^2 dividing the above equation by pi ( p i / 4 ) = ( a 2 ) / ( p i r 2 ) (pi/4)=(a^2)/(pi*r^2) since p i pi is less than 4 4 , thus area of the circle is larger than the square.

Angad Narula
Jul 1, 2017

How can I post my own questions ?

By clicking here

Pi Han Goh - 3 years, 11 months ago
Gerry Young
Jun 29, 2017

2pi r =4L
r/L = 4/(2pi) r =0.6366L

area of square L^2 area of circle pi r^2 =pi x (0.6366L)^2 = 1.273L^2

therefore a if a circle and a square have the same perimeter the circle will always have an area 27.3% larger than the square

Syrous Marivani
Jun 29, 2017

Let the side of square be x and radius of the circle r. We are given 4x = 2πr, 2x = πr, and r = 2x/π. Then πr^2 = 2xr, or πr^2 = 4x^2/π. Since 4/π > 1, then πr^2 > x^2, so the area of the circle is larger.

Let's consider π = 3 for this problem to make the calculation easier.

It is known that perimeter of the circle is = 2πr = 6r, (r is radius). It is known that the perimeter of the square is = 4L, (L is each side of the square).

Since they have same perimeter, 4L = 6r and from this we get that L = 3 r 2 \frac{3r}{2} .

It is known that the area of the circle is πr², and the area of the square is L². Now let's suppose they have equal area and if we are wrong we will find what side of the equation is bigger. So 3r² = 9 r ² 4 \frac{9r²}{4} , and from this we get 3r² = 2.25r². -> 3r² > 2.25r²

So, for this problem, the area of the circle is larger ∀ r ∈ R.

pi = 3 is not true.

You can't just say "Let some constant = some incorrect value" and hope that your argument works out...

Pi Han Goh - 3 years, 11 months ago
Stephen Roughley
Jun 28, 2017

For each shape, consider the perimeter P and area A.

For the square:

P = 4 l P=4 * l

A = l 2 A=l^2

Therefore A = P 2 4 4 \frac{P^2}{4 * 4}

For the circle:

P = 2 π r P=2 \pi r

A = π r 2 A = \pi r^2

Therefore A = P 2 4 π \frac{P^2}{4 \pi}

π < 4 \pi < 4 , so A ( c i r c l e ) > A ( s q u a r e ) A(circle)>A(square)

El área del cuadrado esta definida por P 4 \frac{P}{4} El área del circulo esta definida por P π \frac{P}{π} Donde P, es el perímetro. Sabiendo que el perímetro es el mismo para ambos caso podemos crear la siguiente formula que nos permite ilustrar la relación de las áreas: A= P 4 o r π \frac{P}{ 4 or π } La relación del área es inversamente proporcional a la del denominador de la igualdad, por lo tanto al ser π (3.14...) menor a 4, entonces deducimos que la figura que mayor área tendrá sera la del circulo, debido a que el denominador relacionado en su ecuación es mas pequeño, que el del área del cuadrado, por lo tanto su área sera mayor.

Robert DeLisle
Jun 27, 2017

Let P be the perimeter that is equal for both figures.

Square side length is P / 4 P/4 , area is P 2 / 16 P^2/16

Circle diameter is P / π P/\pi , radius is P / 2 π P/2\pi , area is π ( P / 2 π ) 2 = P 2 / 4 π \pi (P/2\pi)^2 = P^2/ 4\pi ,

Since π < 4 \pi < 4 it follows that 4 ( π ) < 4 ( 4 ) = 16 4(\pi) < 4(4) = 16 and that the circle area is greater than the square area.

Jordan Marsaw
Jun 27, 2017

i'm not good enough with LaTEX to make the fix but 'r' shouldn't be squared in parentheses.

Jordan Marsaw - 3 years, 11 months ago

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I don't see any issue with your solution Thank you for posting it, looks logical and neat.

Hana Wehbi - 3 years, 11 months ago
Space Sizzlers
Jun 26, 2017

Given any closed 2 dimensional figure with a fixed value of perimeter the area of CIRCLE is the most .

You mean the MOST.

Jose Alvarez - 3 years, 11 months ago

Can you show why this is true?

Pi Han Goh - 3 years, 11 months ago

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