Cyclic Inequality

Algebra Level 2

If a , b , a, b, and c c are distinct numbers, is it possible that

a + 2 b < b + 2 c < c + 2 a ? a + 2b < b + 2c < c + 2a ?

Yes No

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7 solutions

Chung Kevin
Apr 11, 2017

Consider the solution set to the inequality ( b + 2 c ) ( a + 2 b ) > 0 (b + 2c) - ( a+ 2b ) > 0 . It corresponds to the "upper half" of the space that is cut by the plane a b + 2 c = 0 -a - b + 2c = 0 .
Consider the solution set to the inequality ( c + 2 a ) ( b + 2 c ) > 0 (c+2a) - (b+2c) > 0 . It corresponds to the "upper half" of the space that is cut by the plane 2 a b c = 0 2a - b -c = 0 .

Because these 2 planes are not parallel, hence we can conclude that they must intersect, and so these "upper half" will have to intersect, giving us a solution to the inequality.


This is an example of a solution where we have shown that the answer exists, but did not have to find a value that worked.

The 2-variable version is slightly more interesting / relevant. If we have inequality a x + b y > c , d x + e y > f ax + by > c, dx + ey > f , then if a e b d ae \neq bd , we can conclude that there will always be a solution (though it's not clear what the solution is in terms of the variables).

Moderator note:

Here is the 3-dimensional graph of the planes intersecting:

can you post the graph,sir.

sam dave - 4 years, 1 month ago

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The exact graph is not important, which is why I didn't add it.

All that we needed to know, was that we had 2 "half spaces", which would have to intersect as long as their separating plane is not parallel.

In general, for 3 variables with 2 inequalities, we are guaranteed to have a solution, unless the inequalities are multiples of each other. It doesn't quite matter what coefficients we use.

Chung Kevin - 4 years, 1 month ago

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i got it ,thank you sir.

sam dave - 4 years, 1 month ago

Why doesn't plugging in random values verify the inequality? Putting a=1, b=2 and c=3 gives 5<8<5 Can you explain?

Vaibhav Kandwal - 4 years, 1 month ago

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It does not hold true for all possible values. The question asks if there is some set of values, such that the inequality is true.

E.g. Is it possible for x < y x < y ? The answer is yes, even though putting in x=2, y = 1 doesn't make it true.

Chung Kevin - 4 years, 1 month ago

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@Chung Kevin Ah I had a second thought about it. I believe you should rephrase the question to let the viewers know that this inequality is true for a specific domain only. :D

Vaibhav Kandwal - 4 years, 1 month ago

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@Vaibhav Kandwal How would you have phrased the problem? What words are you looking for?

When I said "is it possible", it already implies "does there exist some set of numbers that makes it possible ...", as opposed to "show that for all sets of numbers, it is true that ...".

Chung Kevin - 4 years, 1 month ago
Arjen Vreugdenhil
Apr 16, 2017

My goal is not only to find a "yes" (one example is enough, after all), but also to establish precise conditions for the inequalities to hold true.

First I subtracted a + b + c a+b+c . The inequality then becomes b c < c a < a b . b-c < c-a < a-b. Since the sum of these three terms is zero, it is obvious that at least one of them must be negative and one positive. This shows immediately that b < a , c b < a, c . The order of a , c a, c does not matter, as long as they are sufficiently close to each other.

Thus we have the following recipe to make all triples that satisfy the inequalities:

  • pick any number b b

  • pick any number c > b c > b

  • pick any number a a between 1 2 ( b + c ) \tfrac12(b+c) and c c

  • swap a a and c c if desired.

To prove that this works, let c = b + k c = b + k and a = b + k t a = b + k t , with k > 0 k > 0 and 0 < t < 1 0 < t < 1 . Then the inequality above translates to k < k ( 1 t ) < k t , -k < k (1-t) < k t, which is true iff 1 2 < t < 1 \tfrac12 < t < 1 .

Or, if we swap a a and c c , let a = b + k a = b + k and c = b + k t c = b + k t , with k > 0 k > 0 . Then the inequality becomes k t < k ( 1 t ) < k , -k t < -k (1-t) < k, which again is true iff 1 2 < t < 1 \tfrac12 < t < 1 .

Love your analysis. It's great

Patrick Tawil - 4 years, 1 month ago

If I put a =1, b=2, c=3, then this given condition does not hold true

Raju Singh - 4 years, 1 month ago

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1 + 2 2 = 5 1 + 2\cdot 2 = 5 , 2 + 2 3 = 8 2 + 2\cdot 3 = 8 , 3 + 2 1 = 5 3 + 2\cdot 1 = 5 .

These numbers do not match the original inequality, nor do they match my criterion that b < a , c b < a, c .

Arjen Vreugdenhil - 4 years, 1 month ago

This problem does not belong under "Basic." It is more difficult than that.

Dennis Rodman - 2 years, 1 month ago

Comparing the three expressions pairwise, we have that

a + 2 b < b + 2 c a + b 2 < c a + 2b \lt b + 2c \Longrightarrow \dfrac{a + b}{2} \lt c , (i),

b + 2 c < c + 2 a b + c 2 < a b + 2c \lt c + 2a \Longrightarrow \dfrac{b + c}{2} \lt a , (ii),

So considering a number line, from (i) we have that the average of a , b a,b lies to the left of c c , so at least one of a , b a,b lies to the left of c c . From (ii) the average of b , c b,c lies to the left of a a , so at least one of b , c b,c lies to the left of a a . So neither of a , c a,c can be the least value, which implies that b b is less than both a a and c c . We can't glean any information from these inequalities as to how a a and c c relate to one another, so we will try plugging some examples of ( a , b , c ) (a,b,c) into the given inequality string with b b as the minimum to see what pans out:

  • ( a , b , c ) = ( 2 , 1 , 3 ) a + 2 b = 4 , b + 2 c = 7 , c + 2 a = 7 (a,b,c) = (2,1,3) \Longrightarrow a + 2b = 4, b + 2c = 7, c + 2a = 7 , inequality not satisfied;

  • ( a , b , c ) = ( 3 , 1 , 4 ) a + 2 b = 5 , b + 2 c = 9 , c + 2 a = 10 (a,b,c) = (3,1,4) \Longrightarrow a + 2b = 5, b + 2c = 9, c + 2a = 10 , inequality satisfied;

  • ( a , b , c ) = ( 4 , 1 , 3 ) a + 2 b = 6 , b + 2 c = 7 , c + 2 a = 11 (a,b,c) = (4,1,3) \Longrightarrow a + 2b = 6, b + 2c = 7, c + 2a = 11 , inequality satisfied.

So Yes \boxed{\text{Yes}} , there do exist distinct a , b , c a,b,c such that a + 2 b < b + 2 c < c + 2 a a + 2b \lt b + 2c \lt c + 2a . As a necessary condition b b must be the least of the values, but this is not a sufficient condition, i.e. we can have b b as the minimum but choose a , c a,c so that the inequality is not satisfied. Also, we can find cases where either a < c a \lt c or c < a c \lt a and still satisfy the inequality, so there are no restrictions on the relative values of a , c a,c .

Comments: If, for example, c = a + 1 c = a + 1 then b + 2 c < c + 2 a b < a 1 b + 2c \lt c + 2a \Longrightarrow b \lt a - 1 , which explains why ( a , b , c ) = ( 2 , 1 , 3 ) (a,b,c) = (2,1,3) did not work. Similarly, if a = c + 1 a = c + 1 then a + 2 b < b + 2 c b < c 1 a + 2b \lt b + 2c \Longrightarrow b \lt c - 1 . So a , c a,c are structurally equivalent in the given inequality string, but what matters in finding triples ( a , b , c ) (a,b,c) that work is the absolute value of the difference between a a and c c . In general, if a c = k |a - c| = k then we require that both a a and c c exceed b + k b + k .

I don't care if it's not the best solution out there, I just used to upvote your solutions whenever I see them

Mehdi K. - 4 years, 1 month ago

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Haha Thanks for the support! :)

Brian Charlesworth - 4 years, 1 month ago

The best way to show that the inequality is possible is to give values directly.

I couldn't find a nice description of this set, but it gives a simple answer (see my solution).

Chung Kevin - 4 years, 2 months ago
Vu Vincent
Apr 10, 2017

a + 2b < b + 2c (i)
b +2c < c + 2a (ii)
a + 2b < c + 2a (iii)

Add them all together, we get: 2a + 2c +5b < 4c + 4a + b => 4b < 2c + 2a => [2b < c + a]

When we manipulate (iii), which connects the minimum value [a + 2b] and the max [c + 2a], we get [2b < c + a] as well, hence the inequality is possible.

I'm not certain that this solution is correct. You have shown that your manipulations do not lead to a contradiction, but how do we know that there can't be another contradiction that arises later?

Chung Kevin - 4 years, 2 months ago
Andy Burns
Apr 22, 2017

a + 2b < b + 2c < c + 2a

Implies that

a + 2b < c + 2a (transitive quality)

hence,

2b < c + a

then,

b < c + a 2 \frac{c + a}{2}

is the required condition.

e.g.

a = 10 , b = 3 and c = 8 When substituted, gives the 'chain'

16 < 19 < 28

as required.

regards,

L3mon3ntry.

Actually, b < c + a 2 b < \frac{c+a} { 2} is a necessary, but not sufficient condition. For example, with b = 2 , a = 2 , c = 3 b = 2, a = 2, c = 3 , we have 6 < 8 < 7 6 < 8 < 7 .

You removed the middle inequality, so there is no reason why b + 2 c b + 2c must be bounded between the other two terms.

Chung Kevin - 4 years, 1 month ago

We can take two examples, in which we consider rational numbers:

1 1 ) a = 2 5 a=2'5 , b = 1 b=1 and c = 2 c=2 , and the double inequality is: 4 , 5 < 5 < 7 4,5<5<7 , so it is True;

2 2 ) a = 1 a=1 , b = 2 b=2 and c = 3 c=3 , and the double inequality is: 5 < 8 < 5 5<8<5 , so it is False.

Then, you have that the double inequality is not True for any number of rational numbers, worse if there are triples for which it is.

Dhruv Somani
Apr 14, 2017

Consider the numbers ( a , b , c ) = ( 7 , 4 , 8 ) (a, b, c) = (7, 4, 8) .

Could you explain how you got to these numbers?

Pranshu Gaba - 4 years, 1 month ago

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