Damn irrationals

You have the 3 numbers { 4 , 1 + 2 2 , 2 } \big\{4,\ 1+2\sqrt{2},\ \sqrt{2}\big\} on a blackboard. You are permitted to perform the following operation whenever you want and as many times as you want:

  • You can choose 2 numbers a a and b b and replace them with a + b 2 \frac{a+b}{\sqrt{2}} and a b 2 \frac{a-b}{\sqrt{2}} .

Is it possible to attain the 3 numbers { 3 + 2 , 2 2 , 2 1 } \big\{3+\sqrt{2},\ 2\sqrt{2},\ \sqrt{2}-1\big\} after a finite number of operations?

Yes No

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2 solutions

Sharky Kesa
Mar 3, 2017

Note that by applying the operation, the sum of the squares of the three numbers remains constant. Let's prove this:

Let the numbers be ( a , b , c ) (a,b,c) . Thus, the new numbers are ( a + b 2 , a b 2 , c ) (\frac{a+b}{\sqrt{2}}, \frac{a-b}{\sqrt{2}}, c) . Here, the sum of the squares of each number is

( a + b ) 2 2 + ( a b ) 2 2 + c 2 = 2 a 2 + 2 b 2 2 + c 2 = a 2 + b 2 + c 2 \frac{(a+b)^2}{2}+\frac{(a-b)^2}{2}+c^2=\frac{2a^2+2b^2}{2}+c^2=a^2+b^2+c^2

Therefore, the sum of the squares of all the numbers remains constant.

Note that 4 2 + ( 1 + 2 2 ) 2 + 2 2 = 16 + 1 + 8 + 4 2 + 2 = 27 + 4 2 4^2+(1+2\sqrt{2})^2+\sqrt{2}^2 = 16+1+8+4\sqrt{2}+2=27+4\sqrt{2} , whereas ( 3 + 2 ) 2 + ( 2 2 ) 2 + ( 2 1 ) 2 = 9 + 2 + 6 2 + 8 + 2 + 1 2 2 = 22 + 4 2 (3+\sqrt{2})^2+(2\sqrt{2})^2+(\sqrt{2}-1)^2=9+2+6\sqrt{2}+8+2+1-2\sqrt{2}=22+4\sqrt{2} . Since these values are unequal, we cannot achieve the second set of numbers from the first set.

This is a very elegant solution! +1 for this man. :-)

Tapas Mazumdar - 4 years, 3 months ago

I managed to prove that the absolute value of the product of the numbers either stays the same of increases and used it to solve the problem.

Jesse Nieminen - 4 years, 3 months ago

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Nice monovariant! Alternatively, you could have used the overall sum of the terms as a monovariant and gotten the contradiction quicker.

Sharky Kesa - 4 years, 3 months ago

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I tried using the sum, but I wasn't able to make it work.

Jesse Nieminen - 4 years, 3 months ago

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@Jesse Nieminen Btw, I managed to implement the O(n) algorithm I came up with in C++.

Jesse Nieminen - 4 years, 3 months ago
Raushan Sharma
Mar 8, 2017

Sum of squares of the three numbers in the triple is invariant. Then, the rest follows easily as the sum of squares of the numbers in the two triples is different!! So, not possible to get the second triple.

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