Which is more likely?
A: You roll two dice 5 times and, every time, one of the two comes up as 1 and the other as 6.
B: You roll 10 dice all at once. 5 come up as 1s and the other 5 come up as 6s.
Assume the dice are standard, six-sided, and fair.
How are the two situations similar? How are they different?
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That's neat:)
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Thanks, that was my first solution on Brilliant. :)
Thanks for this, so are you saying that in A. One can only have (1,6) or (6,1), but in B. One can have (1,1) or (1,6) or (6,6) or (6,1) Therefore more chances of getting what you want in B.?
I had the same approach. Great Explanation bro!
Cool solution without getting dirty in calculations :)
Situation A: The probability of one roll of two dice coming up as 1 and 6 is: 6 1 * 6 1 * 2 = 1 8 1 and since the rolls are independent, the probability of getting the same results 5 times is: 1 8 5 1 .
Situation B: The probability is: 5 ! ( 1 0 − 5 ) ! 1 0 ! * 6 5 1 * 6 5 1 = 252 * 3 6 5 1 .
If we divide A by B, we get 2 5 2 2 5 = 6 3 8 < 1, which means Situation B is more likely than Situation A .
@Dan Carr , if we left out 10C5, we would only be calculating the chance of one permutation (perhaps 1111166666). 10C5 accounts for all the possible permutations.
why do you multiply by 2 in situation A?
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Because there are two possibilities since 1 and 6 can switch between the two dice. It doesn't have to be exactly which one is which.
Judy, would you explain in more detail how you calculated the probability for case 2?
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(1/6)^5 is the probability of getting dice with no.6 5 times. So we use the AND concept in this and this is similar in the case of getting dice with no.1 5 times. Therefore, (1/6)^5 * (1/6)^5 is initially established; however, we must consider the fact that there can be several outcomes while arranging the dice with the Numbers 1 and 6. Since there are 10 dice and there are two different types of dice, exactly 5 each, then we can arrange them in 10C5 ways. Therefore, we multiply this as well.
The first part 10C5 is the number of ways 5 1s and and 5 6s can turn up. For example, 1 - dice # 1, 3, 7, 8 and 9; 6 - dice # 2, 4, 5, 6 and 10. OR 1 - dice # 2, 4, 8, 9 and 10; 6 - dice # 1, 3, 5, 6, 7 And there are in total 252 combinations. The second and third part are the probabilities of coming up with 5 1s and 5 6s respectively.
For situation B, I get the 1/6^5, but what is the reasoning behind 10C5?
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10C5 is about the ways in which you can arrange the dice with number 6 and the dice with number 1. By multiplying 10C5, you take into account the different ways the dice can be arranged when exactly 5 dice have no.6 and 5 dice have no.1.
@Lisa Dollar Sorry, I should have been more specific. What is the justification for using 10 and 5 in the combination. Also, it feels like the order matters if we are treating 1111166666 different from 6666611111, so is that more related to a permutation instead of a combination?
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@Dan Carr . Hmmm...I see your point. I think we can agree that there are 6^10 possible outcomes. Now how many of them have 5 ones and 5 sixes?
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Yep, totally agree with 6^10 possible outcomes. And I agree with the other explanations that situation A is basically a subset of situation B, so that means B is more likely to happen. I am mostly just curious about what's the easiest way to find the number of ways we can arrange 5 ones and 5 sixes so we can find the probability of B happening.
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for situation A, I think it is because you want a 6 or 1 on the first roll, and 6 or 1 on the second roll, and a 6 or 1 on the third, etc; so you multiply the separate probabilities together. You would add if you were saying 'or' for each of the rolls.
thank u for help
I think you switched 15 choose 5 for 10 choose 5 in your solution.
In situation A why are you multiplying the probability of each roll together? Shouldn't you find the probability of a single roll, like you did (1/18), and the add it to itself 5 times rather than multiply? For situation B isn't it just 1/6 times itself 10 times the number of distinguishable permutations?
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Think about it: adding them together 5 times is actually multiplying by 5. Which would be the probability of ANY of the dice roll pairs to be 1 and 6, since 1/18 is the probability of getting one correct one and you have 5 chances. However getting ALL of them right means that if the first 1/18 was successful, the next roll also has an 1/18 success rate within that first 1/18, and so on. So you multiply as many times as you roll. For your second question: 1/6*10 would be the probability of getting one specific number out of the rolls. Again, 1/6 is the probability of a specific number appearing on one die, and multiplies by the number of rolls (doesn't matter if they're at the same time or consecutive, in this case). But we need 2 specific numbers to appear 5 times each, and that has the complicated formula shown above. Remember, basically, if ANY of the rolls can be considered as successful, then you add (multiply by the number of rolls) the probabilities (as multiple rolls raise the chance of success), however if ALL of them have to be, you multiply (raise to the power of the rolls) the probabilities (as multiple rolls decrease the success, exponentially).
Too complicated
If you think of the question in terms of 5 different colors of dice. Scenario B with 2 of each color of dice would be equivalent to A if you required that you had a 1 of each color and a 6 of each color. Obviously this is more restrictive than just having any 5 be 1s. Therefore B is more likely.
Think of the given conditions as following-->
You roll two dice 5 times and, every time, one of the two comes up as 1 and the other as 6. *
You roll dice for the first time and you don't get the expected output i.e. 1 and 6, Game Over . You need not to make further move as it doesn't satisfy given condition.
You roll 10 dice all at once. 5 come up as 1s and the other 5 come up as 6s.
you roll 2 dice (2 out of 10, we will roll 2 dice at a time) and you get output 1 and 1. you can still continue , as here we need total five 1 s and five 6 s . So, even after rolling two dice, we still have chance for getting expected output after rolling all the dice.
Therefore we can clearly observe that Case 2 is more likely.
NO MATHS REQUIRED !!
Just because you reasoned through it algorithmically doesn't mean there isn't any mathematics. (No calculation, sure!) Your argument resembles some that come from combinatorial game theory.
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Actually, I meant that no calculations.. Otherwise maths is everywhere... algorithms are maths too.... It was kinda sarcastic statement....
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No worries. There is the occasional person (even on this site) who has trouble with the idea that algorithmic arguments are maths, so I wanted to make sure.
Event B is more likely than event A, and this is more easily seen by modifying Experiment A for ease of comparison. In each of the following dice experiments, consider having 10 dice, numbered #1 to #10.
Event A' : You roll the 10 dice and place them in order. Each pair of dice (#1, #2), (#3, #4), (#5, #6), (#7, #8), and (#9, #10) come up as a 1 and a 6 (in either order).
We note the following:
There are precisely five 1s and five 6s in Event A'. |
Event A' is equivalent to Event A. |
Event B : You roll the 10 dice and place them in order. There are precisely five 1s and five 6s.
Now that we've restated Event A as Event A', we can more easily compare it to Event B by noting that
Each time Event A' occurs, so does Event B. |
But there is at least one case of Event B (many, actually) that is not a case of Event A'. For example:
Die: | #1 | #2 | #3 | #4 | #5 | #6 | #7 | #8 | #9 | #10 |
Roll: | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 | 6 |
Thus the probability that Event B occurs is strictly greater than that of Event A' occurring.
Situation A : The probability of rolling two dice and getting a 1 and a 6 is 3 6 2 = 1 8 1 since order doesn't matter. The probability of doing this 5 times in a row is ( 1 8 1 ) 5 = 1 8 5 1 .
Situation B : This problem is equivalent to dividing 10 similar objects (the dice) into 6 different boxes (the six faces of the die). You can use the "stars and bars" method to determine this. There are 15 spaces (10 objects and 5 dividers) in which to place 5 dividers. Therefore there are ( 5 1 5 ) = 3003 ways to roll 10 dice. Only 1 of these ways is five ones and five sixes. The probability is 3 0 0 3 1
The probability of B > the probability of A.
I understand the logic behind Situation B, but for the life of me, I can't reconcile it with the other probabilities in other solutions.
For example, everyone seems to agree that the probability of rolling two dice and getting a 1 and a 6, order not mattering, is 1/18. With Stars and Bars used similarly to above, this would seem to lead to 7 spaces (2 objects and 5 dividers). Therefore, there would be 7C5 = 21 ways to roll the two dice, and only 1 of these ways has one 1 and one 6. So this seems to lead to probability = 1/21, instead of 1/18.
I realize now that my probability calculation for Situation B is incorrect. You can use the "stars and bars" method to determine the probability here. Took me a while to figure out why.
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Hi Erick, how would be the correct calculation of the probability for the Situation B?
Situation A can be one of the variations of situation B. In other words, situation B is a conclusion of situation A, and have less limits.
Outcome A with five pairs of 1,6 is a small subset of outcome B with five 1s and five 6s, so B is more likely.
Without calculating any probabilities, treat it as a permutation problem with five 1s and five 6s. Fully one hundred percent of the permutations will satisfy condition B, but only certain ones where the 1 and 6 are paired will satisfy A: 16,61,61,16,16 etc. Thus B is far more likely.
This doesn't take very long, though I started actually writing out an expression for A and realized that in A since you roll 2 at a time, you only have 2 ways to get 1 1 and 1 6 while in B you roll 10 at once, so you have 10 C 5 ways to get 5 1s and 5 6s and by what I think you know 10 C 5 is way larger than 2 so B has a lot more ways to occur
Because of in B the order doesn't matter B is more likely.
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It is not necessary to calculate the exact probabilities of both situations. We can see that the ordering of the dice is much less strict in A as in B. More formally, if we list all the rolls in order, we see that any situation matching A would also match B (as an example, ABABABABAB would match both situations). However, many lists of rolls would match B but not A (for example, AAAAABBBBB). Therefore, the number of favorable outcomes is necessarily greater for B, and with the same number of possible outcomes (10 die rolls) the probability for situation B is greater .