90 of 100: The Safer Sheep

Each sheep has two fences (represented by matchsticks) protecting it from the wolf. If two matchsticks are removed at random from each sheep's fencing, which sheep is more likely to survive?

A sheep survives if one of its two fences is intact after the matchsticks are removed.

A B The two sheep are equally safe

This section requires Javascript.
You are seeing this because something didn't load right. We suggest you, (a) try refreshing the page, (b) enabling javascript if it is disabled on your browser and, finally, (c) loading the non-javascript version of this page . We're sorry about the hassle.

19 solutions

Isaac Browne
Aug 28, 2017

Here is a quick generalization. If we have an n n sided polygon, the probability of the sheep not surviving is the probability that a matchstick is picked from the outer side then the inner side or the inner side then the outer side, thus we have it is

2 ( n 2 n ) 3 n ( 3 n 1 ) = 4 9 3 n \frac{2*(n*2n)}{3n(3n-1)} = \frac{4}{9-\frac{3}{n}}

It is clear that for bigger n n , this probability gets smaller as the probability approaches 4 9 \frac{4}{9} from above. So, the more sides, the less likely for the sheep to die and the more likely for it to survive.

I don't understand the formula((

Nikita Mahilewets - 3 years, 9 months ago

Log in to reply

It might be clearer if the product were expressed as 2 ( 2 n / 3 n ) ( n / ( 3 n 1 ) ) 2*(2n/3n)*(n/(3n-1)) The probability that the first match is from the outer polygon is 2 n / 3 n 2n/3n (or 2 / 3 2/3 if you prefer). The probability that the second match is from the inner polygon, conditioned on the first match being from the outer polygon, is n / ( 3 n 1 ) n/(3n-1) . The extra factor of 2 is observed by noting that the reverse order would also leave the sheep unsafe.

Richard Desper - 3 years, 9 months ago

It's all the multiplication principle in counting.

For the numerator, 2 because we can switch the order, n because we have n options for the inner fence, 2n because we have 2n options for the outer fence.

For the denominator, 3n(3n-1) because there are 3n options for the first matchstick, and 3n-1 options for the second matchstick.

Isaac Browne - 3 years, 9 months ago

Absolute elegance !

Randy Marsh - 3 years, 9 months ago

One have to remove 1 stick from outer fence in each case. So, it remains 11 and 14 sticks in total. For case 1, probability of inner stick to be chosen= 4/11

For case 2, probability of inner stick to be chosen= 5/14

4/11 > 5/14 . So, case 1 has more chance for inner stick to be chosen. Once an inner stick is chosen, it is no more safe. So, case 2 in more likely to survive.

This seems to ignore the probabilites ofan inner stick being taken out and then an outer one - see the solutions above and below yours.

Katherine barker - 3 years, 9 months ago

Log in to reply

He didn't mention the probability of an outer stick being chosen because in both cases P(an outer stick chosen)= 1/3. Thus, we only need to analyse the inner section to find the answer.

Ishan Maheshwari - 3 years, 9 months ago

That is also the same way I thought about it! For anyone wanting it in decimal form, 4/11≈0.364 while 5/12≈0.357. The probability of the outer stick being chosen in both cases is exactly 1/3. Hence, Sheep B is more likely to survive.

Ishan Maheshwari - 3 years, 9 months ago

Log in to reply

5/14*=~0.357

Wuu Yyiizzhhoouu - 3 years, 9 months ago

Log in to reply

Sorry, I made a typo. But thanks for pointing it out!

Ishan Maheshwari - 3 years, 9 months ago

Ok - Iied - I will try a further clarification. these are not Schrodinger's sheep - they end up alive or dead. So:

The 4 ways you can remove 2 sticks are: 1. 1 from the outside, then one from the inside 2. 1 from the inside, then one from the outside 3. 2 from the outside 4. 2 from the inside

For sheep A P(O first) = 8 out of 12 = 8/12 = 2/3
P ( I then second) = 4 oo 11 = 4/11
P (These 2 events) = 2/3 4/11 = 8/33 P(a) P (I first) = 4oo12 = 4/12 =1/3 P (O then second) = 8/11 P(b) P (These 2 events) = 1/3 8/11 = 8/33 P(b)

P (sheep dead) = P (a v b) = P(a) + P(b) = 16/33

P (O first) = 2/3 P (O then second) = 7/11 P (These 2 events) = 2/3 7/11 = 14/33 P(aa) P (I first) = 1/3 P (I then second) = 3/11 P (These 2 events) = 1/3 3/11 = 1/11 P(bb)

P (sheep alive) = P(aa) + P(bb) = 14/33 + 1/11 = 17/33

Now - note that 16/33 = 17/33 = 1 - because the sheep is either alive or dead.

I f you have a different possiblity for sheep A living or dieing - can you work through your assumptions and maths and show these probabities add up to 1? (I don't seem to ale to edit line breaks where I want them - so you may have to insert your own to follow this)

Katherine barker - 3 years, 9 months ago

Not correct. If you analyze both stage (first pick, then second) the right comparison is 8/11 > 10/14.

Roy McDonald - 3 years, 9 months ago

Log in to reply

No - it isn't. If you disagree with Judy, Michel, Stephano et al - show us P(sheep survivining) + P(sheep being eaten) = 1. If your numbers can't worl through to that - you're wrong. End of.

Katherine barker - 3 years, 9 months ago

That wasn't the question though. The question was to remove a stick at random from either the outer or inner section

Jon Mills - 3 years, 9 months ago

Log in to reply

He didn't mention the probability of an outer stick being chosen because in both cases P(an outer stick chosen)= 1/3. Thus, we only need to analyse the inner section to find the answer.

Ishan Maheshwari - 3 years, 9 months ago

Log in to reply

That's not true. P(an outer stick chosen)= 2/3 and P(an inner stick chosen)= 1/3 so using your argument you could find the answer using only outer section instead - which since the probabilities would be the same using either method, by definition would mean A and B would be equally likely

Jon Mills - 3 years, 9 months ago

Log in to reply

@Jon Mills No - but the counter-argument has been put so many times, by so many people, using so many methods but arriving at the same answer that I really can't face going over it again. It is one of the strange facts of maths that once you have decided a probability = P(me), no discussion or counter-proposal will ever change your mind.

Katherine barker - 3 years, 9 months ago

Fantastic !

Randy Marsh - 3 years, 9 months ago
Judy Gu
Aug 27, 2017

As stated, a sheep survives if and only if both matchsticks are removed from the same (outer or inner) fence .

Sheep A : The outer fence has 8 matchsticks and the inner fence has 4 matchsticks.

P(Sheep A survives) = 1 * P(Both matchsticks are removed from the outer fence) + 1 * P(Both matchsticks are removed from the inner fence) + 0 * P(The two fences have one matchstick each removed from them).

= 1 * ( 8 2 ) ( 4 0 ) ( 12 2 ) \frac{{8 \choose 2}{4 \choose 0}}{12 \choose 2} + 1 * ( 8 0 ) ( 4 2 ) ( 12 2 ) \frac{{8 \choose 0}{4 \choose 2}}{12 \choose 2} + 0 * ( 8 1 ) ( 4 1 ) ( 12 2 ) \frac{{8 \choose 1}{4 \choose 1}}{12 \choose 2}

= 1 * ( 8 ! 2 ! ( 8 2 ) ! \frac{8!}{2!*(8-2)!} / 12 ! 2 ! ( 12 2 ) ! \frac{12!}{2!*(12-2)!} ) + 1 * ( 4 ! 2 ! ( 4 2 ) ! \frac{4!}{2!*(4-2)!} / 12 ! 2 ! ( 12 2 ) ! \frac{12!}{2!*(12-2)!} )

= 1 * 28 66 \frac{28}{66} + 1 * 6 66 \frac{6}{66} = 17 33 \frac{17}{33} = 0.5152 .

Sheep B : Likewise, the outer fence has 10 matchsticks and the inner fence has 5 matchsticks.

P(Sheep B survives) = 1 * ( 10 2 ) ( 5 0 ) ( 15 2 ) \frac{{10 \choose 2}{5 \choose 0}}{15 \choose 2} + 1 * ( 10 0 ) ( 5 2 ) ( 15 2 ) \frac{{10 \choose 0}{5 \choose 2}}{15 \choose 2} + 0 * ( 10 1 ) ( 5 1 ) ( 15 2 ) \frac{{10 \choose 1}{5 \choose 1}}{15 \choose 2}

= 1 * ( 10 ! 2 ! ( 10 2 ) ! \frac{10!}{2!*(10-2)!} / 15 ! 2 ! ( 15 2 ) ! \frac{15!}{2!*(15-2)!} ) + 1 * ( 5 ! 2 ! ( 5 2 ) ! \frac{5!}{2!*(5-2)!} / 15 ! 2 ! ( 15 2 ) ! \frac{15!}{2!*(15-2)!} )

= 1 * 45 105 \frac{45}{105} + 1 * 10 105 \frac{10}{105} = 11 21 \frac{11}{21} = 0.5238 .

Therefore, 0.5238 > 0.5152 which means sheep B \boxed{B} is more likely to survive.

Well done !!!

Randy Marsh - 3 years, 9 months ago

Yup that's how i would've aproach it 2 years ago, good job.

Liviu Vigu-Giurea - 3 years, 9 months ago
Robert DeLisle
Aug 29, 2017

What do u make in the anzwer and how?I can't understand how did u make the graph type thing.What is it?

Shubhajit Chakraborty - 3 years, 9 months ago

Log in to reply

The diagrams are cross tables of all the outcomes pairing outer and inner fence segments removed. The green areas are "safe" when two outer or two inner segments are removed. The red areas are "unsafe" when a combination of one outer and one inner segment are removed allowing entry for the wolf. The diagonals are blacked out because the same segment of fence can not be removed twice. The probabilities are then derived from the count of red (wolf can get sheep) or green (sheep is safe and survives) table entries divided by the total of all table entries that are red or green ( not blacked out). It i just a way to display a table of all possible outcomes and a direct way to compute the probability.

Robert DeLisle - 3 years, 9 months ago

In first green square,you take only one fence out.But in question,it was said -u have to take out 2 fences.same for first i-i green block

Shubhajit Chakraborty - 3 years, 8 months ago

Your answer was correct because u mistake for both cases.but when it comes to probability,your answer is wrong.

Shubhajit Chakraborty - 3 years, 8 months ago

But probability is also correct.Its imppssible

Shubhajit Chakraborty - 3 years, 8 months ago

Oh ho.no you are right bro.sorry I didn't see-u make black coloured for same o -frences andI-frences

Shubhajit Chakraborty - 3 years, 8 months ago

Chance for sheep A to die = 8/12 x 4/11 + 4/12 x 8/11 = 48.485%

Chance for sheep B to die = 10/15 x 5/14 + 5/15 x 10/14 = 47.619%

=> Sheep A more likely to die

=> Sheep B more likely to survive

For a sheep NOT to survive there has to be removed one match from the outer fence and one match from the inner fence. For sheep A there are 8 matches on the outer fence and 4 on the inner fence, so that's a total of 12. The chance for removing one of each fence is (2)x(8/12)x(4/11)=(64/132)=(16/33). For sheep B there are 10 matches on the outer fence and 5 on the inner fence, so that's a total of 15. The chance for removing one of each fence is (2)x(10/15)x(5/14)=(100/210)=(10/21). 10/21 is smaller than 16/33 so sheep B is more likely to survive.

Enlightening !

Randy Marsh - 3 years, 9 months ago

wrong reasoning - see one of the other explanations above!

mathias schenker - 3 years, 9 months ago

Log in to reply

You're absolutely right. I calculated the chance of taking 1 match from outer fence and 1 match from inner fence. But then I let out the possibilities of 2 matches from outer fence or 2 matches from inner fence. I've changed my solution.

Michel van den Heuvel - 3 years, 9 months ago

So what we see now is the amended solution? That was what I got, using the 'sheep eaten' branches of a probability tree. It also matches Isaac Browne's solution. The solution immediately above seems to include only an outer stick being removed, and then an inner one, and ignores an inner stick being taken, and then an outer one.

Katherine barker - 3 years, 9 months ago
Stefano Gallenda
Aug 29, 2017

To be reached by the wolf we need to remove 1 matchstick for each fence...

Case A : P A = 8 12 4 11 + 4 12 8 11 = 2 ( 8 12 4 11 ) = 16 33 P_A = \frac{8}{12}\cdot\frac{4}{11}+\frac{4}{12}\cdot\frac{8}{11} = 2\cdot(\frac{8}{12}\cdot\frac{4}{11}) = \frac{16}{33}

Case B : P B = 10 15 5 14 + 5 15 10 14 = 2 ( 10 15 5 10 ) = 10 21 P_B = \frac{10}{15}\cdot\frac{5}{14}+\frac{5}{15}\cdot\frac{10}{14} = 2\cdot(\frac{10}{15}\cdot\frac{5}{10}) = \frac{10}{21}

P A > P B B P_A > P_B \Rightarrow B is most likely to survive

Erick Lee
Aug 29, 2017

I'm not sure why, but I find this problem easier to think about when it is stated as the "Matching Socks Problem". It is a different context solved using the same method. Restate the problem as, "Drawer A has 8 white and 4 black socks, Drawer B has 10 white and 5 black socks. If I pull two socks at random from a drawer, will I be more likely to get a matching pair from Drawer A or Drawer B?" Pulling a matching pair of socks is equivalent to the sheep surviving. Some nice solutions strategies are at https://www.cut-the-knot.org/m/Probability/ProbabilityOfSocks.shtml

Because it is matching socks problem, you need and outside and an inside fence. its simpler to think about chance of sheep death rather than sheep survival.

Karl Snowsill - 3 years, 9 months ago
Sundar R
Aug 28, 2017

Clearly, the sheep in the figure with a larger number of matchsticks / number of segments is more likely to survive. B is a pair of pentagons and A is a pair of squares, Hence B is safer than A

You do realize the difference in survival percentage is less that 1%, that's a big call for an instinct.

Karl Snowsill - 3 years, 9 months ago

Ok, i didn;t think it would be this close but i felt that equality would be a much closer affair than the scenario suggested

Sundar R - 3 years, 9 months ago

Extraordinary !

Randy Marsh - 3 years, 9 months ago
Jordan Weitz
Apr 12, 2020

The solution to this problem involves comparing the probabilities of survival in each case A (inner fence length 4) and B (inner fence length 5). The survival probability as a function of inner fence length will only increase or decrease with n, so this problem is equivalent to comparing n = 1 and n = 2. For n = 1, survival probability is 0, so B is the better chance.

Rick Zhou
Jan 11, 2018

Just saying, this problem can be done by simple logic. There are more sticks on the outside in case B and more sticks on the inside of case B compared to case A. Simple reasoning would conclude it's harder to get into the fence with more sticks.

Ilya Prokin
Sep 2, 2017

No need for exact computation. P(death) = P(1 external AND 1 internal) = P(1 internal | 1 external) P(1 external). The probability to remove an external matchstick first is the same in both cases P(1 external) = 2n/(2n+n) = 2/3 (here n is the number of internal matchsticks). As P(1 external) is the same, we only need to compare probability to remove 1 internal matchstick after 1 external was removed, P(1 internal | 1 external) = n / (2n+n-1) = n/(3n-1)= 1/(3-1/n). When n is large, P(1 internal | 1 external) goes close to 1/3 (lower bound). However, with the decrease of n, the denominator decreases as well, so P(1 internal | 1 external) increases, and thus P(death) increases. Therefore, P(death) is higher for smaller n (case A). So B is more likely to survive.

Fakharu .
Aug 29, 2017

The way I calculated probability is:

First find out in how many ways fatal combination can be choose. It would be number of matchsticks in outer fence multiplied by number of mathcsticks in inner fence. Then divide it by how many ways, 2 matchsticks can be chosen for each formation. For formation A, it is 12C2 and for formation B it is 15C2. So the probability is

A: 8 4 12 C 2 \frac{8*4}{12C2} B: 10 5 15 C 2 \frac{10*5}{15C2} /

Hence the probability for choosing fatal combination for B is less hence B is more safe.

I just went with the "more matches, more chances to survive" logic... the problem itself is pretty straightforward.

If two matchsticks are removed, there are three possible outcomes: (1) both will be removed from inner fence; (2) both will be removed from outer fence; or (3) one will be removed from each fence. The first two options will leave the sheep safe; the sheep will only be eaten if one matchstick is removed from each fence. Thus, the odds of survival will be 100% minus the odds of not surviving (or of one matchstick being removed from each fence).

The probability of Sheep A's survival is therefore 100% minus the probability of either (a) removing a matchstick from the outside fence followed by removing a matchstick from the inside fence or (b) removing a matchstick from the inside fence followed by removing a matchstick from the outside fence, as follows:

1-( 2 3 \frac{2}{3} * 4 11 \frac{4}{11} + 1 3 \frac{1}{3} * 8 11 \frac{8}{11} ) = 1- 16 33 \frac{16}{33} = 17 33 \frac{17}{33} = ~0.515

The probability of Sheep B's survival is, again, 100% minus the probability of either (a) removing a matchstick from the outside fence followed by removing a matchstick from the inside fence or (b) removing a matchstick from the inside fence followed by removing a matchstick from the outside fence, as follows:

1-( 2 3 \frac{2}{3} * 5 14 \frac{5}{14} + 1 3 \frac{1}{3} * 10 14 \frac{10}{14} ) = 1- 10 21 \frac{10}{21} = 11 21 \frac{11}{21} = ~0.524

So, Sheep B has a slightly better chance of survival.

Oliver Piattella
Aug 29, 2017

For the sheep A the total number of different configurations of two removed matchsticks are ( 12 2 ) {12}\choose{2} = 66, whereas the configurations in which one matchstick from the outer fence AND one matchstick from the inner fence are missing are 8 × 4 = 32 8\times 4 = 32 . Since all the removals are equiprobable then the probability of the sheep A be reached by the wolf is:

P ( A ) = 32 66 = 16 33 P(A) = \frac{32}{66} = \frac{16}{33}

For the sheep B we have ( 15 2 ) {15}\choose{2} = 105 total possible removals and 10 × 5 = 50 10\times 5 = 50 fatal removals. Hence:

P ( B ) = 50 105 = 10 21 P(B) = \frac{50}{105} = \frac{10}{21}

Since P ( A ) > P ( B ) P(A) > P(B) then the sheep B is safer.

For a n n -side polygon, if the outer number of matchsticks is double than the inner one, we have ( 3 n 2 ) {3n}\choose{2} = 3 n ( 3 n 1 ) 2 \frac{3n(3n - 1)}{2} and 2 n 2 2n^2 fatal instances, so that:

P = 4 n 2 3 n ( 3 n 1 ) = 4 9 3 / n P = \frac{4n^2}{3n(3n - 1)} = \frac{4}{9 - 3/n}

Hence, the larger n n is, the smaller P P becomes and the safer the sheep stays.

Arjen Vreugdenhil
Aug 29, 2017

In the first situation, removing the first matchstick removes 12.5 % 12.5\% resp. 25 % 25\% of one of the fences. This greatly reduces the chance that the second matchstick will be taken from the same fence.

In the second situation, the percentages are only 10 % 10\% and 20 % 20\% . The chance that the second matchstick will come from the same fence decreases, but not as strongly is in the first situation.

Thus the sheep in the pentagonal setup is better protected.


Algebraic generalization

If the inner fence has m m and the outer fence n n sections, the probability of the wolf getting the sheep is P = m n ( n + m 2 ) = 2 m n ( m + n ) ( m + n 1 ) . \mathbf P = \frac{mn}{\binom{n+m}{2}} = \frac{2mn}{(m+n)(m+n-1)}. When comparing two situations where the inner fence makes up fraction α \alpha of the total, so that m = α N , n = ( 1 a l p h a ) N m = \alpha N, n = (1-alpha)N , we have P = α ( 1 α ) ( 1 + 1 N 1 ) . \mathbf P = \alpha(1-\alpha)\left(1 + \frac{1}{N-1}\right). Clearly, a greater value of N N results in a smaller chance that the wolf gets the sheep.

Syrous Marivani
Aug 29, 2017

P(A survives) = P(we remove 2 matches from outer boundary) + P(we remove two matches from inner boundary) = 2 8 7 ( 16 2 ) = 0.933333 , , , , , , \frac{8*7}{(\frac{16}{2})}= 0.933333,,,,,, .

P(B survives) = 2 10 9 ( 20 2 ) = 0.94736 \frac{10*9}{(\frac{20}{2})} = 0.94736----- . So B survives.

Tom Engelsman
Aug 29, 2017

For Sheep A to survive, we must remove two matchsticks exclusively from either the eight outer fence pieces OR from the four inner fence pieces, which has probability:

P ( A ) = C 2 8 + C 2 4 C 2 12 = 17 33 0.5151 . P(A) = \frac{C^{8}_{2} + C^{4}_{2}}{C^{12}_{2}} = \frac{17}{33} \approx \boxed{0.5151}.

Using the same reasoning for Sheep B (ten outer pieces & five inner pieces) we obtain the probability:

P ( B ) = C 2 10 + C 2 5 C 2 15 = 11 21 0.5283 . P(B) = \frac{C^{10}_{2} + C^{5}_{2}}{C^{15}_{2}} = \frac{11}{21} \approx \boxed{0.5283}.

Hence, Sheep B has the greater chance for survival ( P ( B ) > P ( A ) ) (P(B) > P(A)) . NOTE: C y x = x ! y ! ( x y ) ! . C^{x}_{y} = \frac{x!}{y! (x-y)!}.

0 pending reports

×

Problem Loading...

Note Loading...

Set Loading...