Don't write all the possibilities, part 2

Algebra Level 5

Given y = x + x x + x y=\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x-\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x-\ldots}}}} , within the range 1 y 2015 1 \leq y \leq 2015 :

Given that x x is a natural number such that 1 y 2015 1 \leq y \leq 2015 , what is the probability that y y is a natural number?

Express the probability in the form a b \dfrac{a}{b} (fraction in simplest form), and enter into the answer box the value of a + b a+b .


The answer is 4060226.

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3 solutions

Hobart Pao
Aug 13, 2015

What I noticed is that if n n is a whole number, and the value of x x is in the form n ( n + 1 ) + 1 n(n+1) +1 , then the value of y y will simply be n + 1 n+1 . In the range of y y values from 1 1 to 2015 2015 , the values of n n will be from 0 0 to 2014 2014 , which is 2015 2015 numbers that will give a natural y y . The highest value of x x satisfying the conditions will be 2014 2015 + 1 2014 \cdot 2015 + 1 and the lowest value of x x satisfying the conditions will be 0 1 + 1 0 \cdot 1 + 1 . That gives 2014 2015 + 1 2014 \cdot 2015 + 1 total possibilities for x x , and the probability of getting a natural value of y y is 2015 4058211 \dfrac{2015}{4058211 } , and since that's in simplest form already, a + b = 4060226 a+b = \boxed{4060226} .

The problem is not very clear; as it is, it looks like x x can be any positive integer. Judging from your solution, what you mean to ask is given that 1 y 2015 1 \le y \le 2015 , what is the probability that y y is an integer?

Jon Haussmann - 5 years, 10 months ago

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x can be any positive integer, but only certain values of x will return a natural y, and i'm restricting the y values between 1 and 2015, which correspond to specific x values.

Hobart Pao - 5 years, 10 months ago

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you can get x values like 1, 2, 3, 4...etc up to a certain point to satisfy the condition that y will be between 1 and 2015, but only certain x values will give you natural values of y.

Hobart Pao - 5 years, 10 months ago

I second Jon Haussmann on the problem being unclear.

Adit Mohan - 5 years, 10 months ago

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How's it now?

Hobart Pao - 5 years, 10 months ago

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awkwardly worded but much less ambiguous. thanks.

Adit Mohan - 5 years, 10 months ago

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@Adit Mohan Out of curiosity, how would you have worded it?

Hobart Pao - 5 years, 10 months ago

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@Hobart Pao "given that x is a natural number such that y lies between 1and 2015(both inclusive), what is the probability that y is a natural number? ".
the benefits of the this wording are .
1.that x is a natural number is made explicit ( as it is in subject verb adjective form).
2. since the restriction is placed on x any chance of the reader getting confused about the sample size is eliminated.
3. the actual question statement is place at the end, right before the question mark.


Adit Mohan - 5 years, 10 months ago

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@Adit Mohan That's really good. I'll use that. Thanks

Hobart Pao - 5 years, 10 months ago

How did you think about the n(n+1)+1 form of x

Mridul Gupta - 5 years, 10 months ago

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I just happened to notice it.

Hobart Pao - 5 years, 10 months ago

Let's try it in more algebraic way!!!

First, we have y = x + x x + x . . . y=\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x-\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x-...}}}}

y = x + x y y=\sqrt{x+\sqrt{x-y}}

y 2 x = x y y^{2}-x=\sqrt{x-y}

y 4 2 y 2 x + x 2 = x y y^{4}-2y^{2}x+x^{2}=x-y

So, we will treat it as a polynomial in terms of x

x 2 ( 2 y 2 + 1 ) x + y 4 + y = 0 x^{2}-(2y^{2}+1)x+y^{4}+y=0

x = 2 y 2 + 1 ± ( 2 y 2 + 1 ) 2 4 ( y 4 + y ) 2 x=\dfrac{2y^{2}+1 \pm \sqrt{(2y^{2}+1)^{2}-4(y^{4}+y)}}{2}

x = 2 y 2 + 1 ± 4 y 4 + 4 y 2 + 1 4 y 4 4 y 2 = 2 y 2 + 1 ± ( 2 y 1 ) 2 x=\dfrac{2y^{2}+1 \pm \sqrt{4y^{4}+4y^{2}+1-4y^{4}-4y}}{2}=\dfrac{2y^{2}+1 \pm (2y-1)}{2} Since 2y-1 always be positive number.

Now, we have to choose only one root that correct (another root will exceed because the method of square). And after I've tried both two roots I found that the negative root (choose negative sign) is the answer.

Then we have

x = y 2 y + 1 x=y^{2}-y+1

Since y vary from 1 to 2015, x will run from 1 to 2014 × 2015 + 1 2014 \times 2015+1 but there are just 2015 value of x that can produce integer y.

Hence the probability is then P r o b = 2015 2014 × 2015 + 1 Prob=\dfrac{2015}{2014 \times 2015+1} and also this is the simplest fraction form.

a b = 2015 2014 × 2015 + 1 \dfrac{a}{b}=\dfrac{2015}{2014 \times 2015+1}

a + b = 201 5 2 + 1 = 4060225 + 1 = 4060226 a+b=2015^{2}+1=4060225+1=\boxed{4060226}

Rindell Mabunga
Sep 29, 2015

Let x + x x + . . . = A \sqrt{x + \sqrt{x - \sqrt{x + ...}}} = A and x x + x . . . = B \sqrt{x - \sqrt{x + \sqrt{x - ...}}} = B

From these equations, we can get A = x + B A = \sqrt{x + B} and B = x A B = \sqrt{x - A}

A = x + B A = \sqrt{x + B}

A 2 = x + B A^2 = x + B

x = A 2 B x = A^2 - B -------------------------------------> [ e q u a t i o n 1 ] [equation 1]

B = x A B = \sqrt{x - A}

B 2 = x A B^2 = x - A

x = B 2 + A x = B^2 + A -------------------------------------> [ e q u a t i o n 2 ] [equation 2]

From equation 1 and equation 2, we will get

A 2 B = B 2 + A A^2 - B = B^2 + A

A 2 B 2 A B = 0 A^2 - B^2 - A - B = 0

( A B ) ( A + B ) ( A + B ) = 0 (A - B)(A + B) - (A + B) = 0

( A + B ) ( A B 1 ) = 0 (A + B)(A - B - 1) = 0

Since A , B > 0 A, B > 0 , A + B > 0 A + B > 0 . Therefore A B 1 = 0 A - B - 1 = 0 or B = A 1 B = A - 1

Using equation 1,

x = A 2 B x = A^2 - B

x = A 2 A + 1 x = A^2 - A + 1

0 = A 2 A + ( 1 x ) 0 = A^2 - A + (1 - x)

But A = y A = y

0 = y 2 y + ( 1 x ) 0 = y^2 - y + (1 - x)

This equation must lead to [ y + M ] [ y ( M + 1 ) ] [y + M][y - (M + 1)] for some natural number M M . The value of y y will be M + 1 M + 1 .

1 x = M ( M + 1 ) 1 - x = -M(M + 1)

x = 1 + M ( M + 1 ) x = 1 + M(M + 1)

x = 1 + y ( y 1 ) x = 1 + y(y - 1)

Range of y y is 1 y 2015 1 \leq y \leq 2015 . Then the range of x x must be 1 x 2014 × 2015 + 1 1 \leq x \leq 2014 \times 2015 + 1 . Therefore there are only 2015 2015 values of y y for 2014 × 2015 + 1 2014 \times 2015 + 1 values of x x .

a b = 2015 2014 × 2015 + 1 \frac{a}{b} = \frac{2015}{2014 \times 2015 + 1}

a = 2015 a = 2015 and b = 2014 × 2015 + 1 b = 2014 \times 2015 + 1

a + b = ( 2014 ) ( 2014 × 2015 + 1 ) = 4060226 a + b = (2014)(2014 \times 2015 + 1) = 4060226

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