A and B are distinct numbers such that A n − B n is an integer for all positive integers n .
Do both A and B have to be integers?
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LOL. That is a great way to deal with this problem.
There's also the "let's get our hands dirty approach", though that motivates why one would use that technique.
Just do this: 5.5^2 - 1.5^2 That will get your answer.
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Note that A = 5 . 5 , B = 1 . 5 doesn't satisfy the condition. It has to hold for all values of n , and not just for n = 1 , 2 .
As an example, 5 . 5 5 − 1 . 5 5 = 5 0 2 5 . 2 5 .
As it turns out, we do require that A and B are integers.
P.S. Good attempt at a counterexample using a denominator of 2 and setting A − B = 4 = 2 2 . This allows the condition to hold for more values of n , just not all values of n .
Patrick's approach of using the Lifting the Exponent lemma is a great way to solve the problem. We could still proceed pretty directly, though you can see why this approach motivates using LTE.
[This is not a complete solution.]
Hint 1:
First show that
A
,
B
are rational. In particular, counter examples are not "complex (but not real)" nor "irrational", so if you have found such a counter example, check a few values of
n
first.
Hint 2:
Set common denominator, IE
A
=
D
N
,
b
=
D
M
. Show that if
p
∣
D
, then
p
∣
N
,
M
.
Hence, conclude that
a
,
b
are integers.
[These are the details. Do not read ahead if you want to solve this yourself.]
Hint 1: Since A − B = 0 , thus A + B = A + B A 2 − B 2 is rational. Hence, A , B = 2 ( A + B ) ± ( A − B ) is also rational.
Hint 2: Note that we can multiply A and B by any integer, and still satisfy the conditions. Hence, we may assume that p is a prime, and multiply throughout by p D . Redefining notation, let A = p N , B = p M , where p is a prime (possibly 2).
To satisfy the conditions, p ∣ N ⇔ p ∣ M . If so, both terms are integers and we are done. Henceforth, suppose that p ∣ N , p ∣ M , N = M .
Let
A
=
p
k
q
+
p
M
where
p
∣
q
. Then,
A
l
−
B
l
=
(
p
k
q
+
p
M
)
l
−
(
p
M
)
l
=
(
1
l
)
(
p
M
)
l
−
1
(
p
k
q
)
1
+
(
2
l
)
(
p
M
)
l
−
2
(
p
k
q
)
2
+
…
+
(
l
−
1
l
)
(
p
M
)
1
(
p
k
q
)
l
−
1
+
(
p
k
q
)
l
.
To reach a contradiction, the goal is to pick an
l
such that the first term has much more powers of
p
in the denominator than the subsequant terms, which means we actually have a fraction.
To achieve this, let
l
=
p
z
>
k
+
2
and
p
∣
z
(the reason for these conditions will become obvious soon). Multiplying throughout by
p
l
, we obtain:
p
l
(
A
l
−
B
l
)
=
(
1
l
)
M
l
−
1
p
k
q
+
(
2
l
)
M
l
−
2
p
2
k
+
1
q
2
+
(
3
l
)
M
l
−
3
p
3
k
+
2
q
3
+
…
+
(
l
−
1
l
)
M
1
p
k
l
−
k
+
l
−
1
+
p
k
l
+
l
q
l
From lucas' theorem / Kummer's theorem / manual verification, we know that
Hence,
p
k
+
1
is the highest power of
p
that divides
(
1
l
)
M
l
−
1
p
k
q
and
p
k
+
2
divides every subsequant term on the RHS. Hence
p
k
+
2
does not divide the RHS.
This contradicts the fact that
p
l
>
p
k
+
2
divides the LHS.
Note: When trying to find counterexamples, we see that increasing the value of
k
in
A
−
B
=
p
k
q
allows us to make the
A
n
−
B
n
an integer for larger values of
n
. E.g. Take
p
=
2
,
A
=
5
.
5
,
B
=
4
.
5
.
This is reflected in the solution, where the test value is set larger than
k
+
2
.
Note: Michael Mendrin's solution suggests using
l
=
p
z
+
1
>
k
. Can you complete the argument?
IE How does that change the solution from Lucas' Theorem onwards?
Note: We are very interested in calculating v p ( N n − M n ) , which is where the Lifting the Exponent Lemma comes in.
Yeah and showing then rational is too easy right 🙄
hey.. doesn't anyone have the full proof to this? .. .okay let me digest what you've just said
Edit: Patrick Corn has provided the full proof. Now I'll compare his approach with mine to see how I can complete mine.
i made a horrible mistake. i did not read the problem properly. it is for all n. i assumed that it is true for n=1,2. unless we understand the problem there is no chance of solving it.
I feel like i'm missing something here, but can't A and B be sqrt(3) and sqrt(2) with n=2 and the answer still be an integer.
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Well, read the question again........it says for ALL POSITIVE INTEGERS n.........you have only taken the case when n equals to 2......what if n=3 or 5.....??
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Conjugates? (2+sqrt(2)) and (2-sqrt(2)) looks distinct enough, and the root terms for all integer powers cancels each other.
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@Francis Kong – Notice that ( 2 + 2 ) 1 − ( 2 − 2 ) 1 = 4 2 is not an integer. In fact, this is never an integer, because the integer powers cancel out but not the fractional powers. For the fractional powers to cancel out, you are thinking of A n + B n , which is this version of the problem .
If if you are using A = 2 + 2 , B = 2 − 2 , then n = 2 will not work. See Hint 1 for why we can conclude that A , B must be rational.
How about A = (cos(2 pi)+i sin(2 pi)) B = (cos(2 pi)-i sin(2 pi)) A and B are distinct "numbers", so no restriction on being complex?
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@Vitrioil V Check your A and B.....they are both integers.....!!!
In your example, A = 1 , B = 1 are not distinct "numbers".
In addition, See Hint 1 which shows that A , B are rational (which is a subset of the reals).
Note: We could make
A
n
−
B
n
a
Gaussian integer
and ask if
A
,
B
must necessarily be Gaussian integers too.
I have not thought this through.
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For Gaussian integers, it's easy to see (by De Moivre) that z and z satisfy the given condition, where a r g ( z ) = n π , i.e. indeed solutions over Gaussian integers are also INTEGERS!!
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@Mihir Mallick – Yes, similar to the original problem, it is clear that any pair of Gaussian integers will satisfy the condition because their operations are a closed set. The point of the problem is to ask "Are there any other solutions? Could we not do something funky?". For example, the A n + B n case allows for some flexibility .
I've edited my comment to reflect this.
What about Binet's formula? f n = 5 φ n − ψ n (here φ = 2 1 + 5 ; ψ = 2 1 − 5 )
After raising 5 to n t h power, can't we write f n in the form A n − B n where A and B are irrational?
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You have to have the same a , b for all powers n . That 5 ruins it.
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Oh, ok, got your point!
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@Mihir Mallick – Besides, it's easy to show that a , b have to be at least rational numbers. The difficulty is proving that they must be integers.
This is a great argument! However the last part can be somewhat simplified and carried out without reference to Kummer's theorem.
I will be writing up the full solution when I get home in a week or so, but I can't publish it except by sending a digital photo of my computer screen. Is there a way I can publish a photo here from my phone?
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Yes, but not easily. We use markdown to display images, so you just need to upload the photo (to another image site).
(Especially if that sounds foreign to you,) A much easier approach would be to use the desktop version of the site, where you have a formatting toolbar that allows you to upload photos stored on your computer by clicking the third button from the left.
Alternatively, email the digital photo to me and I will upload it.
Right, there isn't a need to appeal to Kummer's theory, the 2 facts were all that I needed, and this could be shown directly / "is well-known". Manual verification is the easiest, though Lucas/Kummer's theory provides a clean presentation of the ideas.
Wouldn't it be easier to use binomial expansion?
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Can you clarify what you mean? That's what I used in expanding out A l = ( p k q + p M ) l . Were you thinking of using it in another way?
NOTE : There is a mistake in the solution. See if you can figure it out!
From Calvin's hint, we know that A and B are rationals.
Let A = b a and B = d c where ( a , b ) and ( c , d ) are coprime
Hence, b n a n − d n c n = ( b d ) n ( a d ) n − ( b c ) n
⇒ ( a d ) n − ( b c ) n ≡ 0 ( mod ( b d ) n )
⇒ ( a d ) n ≡ ( b c ) n ( mod ( b d ) n )
⇒ a d ≡ ± b c ( mod b d )
This is only possible when b a = d c ⇒ A = B
Hence, A and B must be integers ■
The mistake is in the line:
( a d ) n ≡ ( b c ) n ( m o d ( b d ) n ) ⇒ a d ≡ ± b c ( m o d b d ) .
Can you find a counterexample to this statement?
Be careful, that's not how modular arithmetic works. You cannot take roots just like that, in part because there are multiple roots, so all that we have is an equality of multi-valued functions (meaning some value in one set is equal to some value in the other set)
As an explicit example, 1 5 2 ≡ 1 2 ( m o d 4 2 ) , but 1 5 ≡ 1 ( m o d 4 ) . In this case, the root of 1 ( m o d 1 6 ) is ± 1 , ± 7 ( m o d 1 6 ) , which is how I came up with the counter example.
This part of the proof requires a bit of work to push through.
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Thanks! I guess that a d ≡ ± b c (mod b d )
But as the ( a , b ) and ( c , d ) are co-primes, the overall result would be the same. I am not sure but would think over it.
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No, not quite. Maybe in the case of n = 2 because those are 2 square roots, but not always.
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@Calvin Lin – Thank you, sir to figure out my mistake! Will think of another solution. Till then, I am deleting this answer.
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@Tirth Patel – Oh, please leave this up for now. You can just add a note to the top saying that this is incorrect, and invite people to determine the mistake.
It's a slight subtlety that most people would not recognize.
@Tirth Patel – So the "push through" part is claiming that if x n ≡ y n ( m o d z n ) for all n , then we must have x ≡ y ( m o d z ) . Even though for a fixed n , there are multiple possible roots, it does seem very likely that the only root across all possible n is 1, namely x = y .
However, that takes a bit of work to properly formulate. Basically, what you want to show is that if k = m z , then there exists some n such that ( x + k ) n = x n ( m o d z n ) . Looking at values of n near multiples of z might prove fruitful.
Also, this proves only that A , B ∈ Q . Am I wrong?
You should probably also specify that b , d = 1 .
Your proof shows that whenever A&B are rationals,they have to be integers.But you have overlooked the possibility of A&B being irrationals.
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Note that the first sentence is not true. The proof does assume that A and B are rationals, but it doesn't successfully show that they are integers. Given that assumption, can you spot the error?
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Yes sir,the mistake is on taking roots of the integers in the mod statement,as you have already pointed out.
What about if a or b is 0?
proof under construction
If the following are integers x , y
a
−
b
=
x
a
2
−
b
2
=
y
then we can deduce that
a
=
2
x
1
(
x
2
+
y
)
b
=
2
x
1
(
−
x
2
+
y
)
which, if plugged into 2 n − 1 ( a n − b n ) , an integer, has the following term which must be an integer for n > 2 (Warning: hand waving here! Involves induction)
x n − 2 n y n − 1
Muliplying all these terms results in the following product, which must also be an integer
2 1 n ! x 2 1 ( n 2 − 3 n − 2 ) y 2 1 ( n 2 − n − 2 )
where n is unbounded.
Which means that if x , y are finite integers, y is an integer multiple of x , say, y = z x . Then we revise a , b
a
=
2
1
(
x
+
z
)
b
=
2
1
(
−
x
+
z
)
(Warning: more hand waving follows, need to show details)
Now, if both x , z are either even or odd, then a , b are integers. We will examine what happens if x , z are of different parity. We can revise a , b in this form, where p , q are integers
a
=
2
1
(
2
p
+
1
+
2
q
)
b
=
2
1
(
−
2
p
−
1
+
2
q
)
Then when these are plugged into 2 ( n − 2 ) ( a n − b n ) for arbitrary odd n , the result is always half integer. So, we can revise a , b once more
a
=
2
1
(
2
p
+
2
q
+
1
)
b
=
2
1
(
−
2
p
+
2
q
+
1
)
Then when these are plugged into 2 ( 2 n − n − 3 ) ( a ( 2 n + 1 ) − b ( 2 n + 1 ) ) (notice the powers of 2) for arbitrary n all the terms are integers except for the first which is of the form 2 n + 1 ( 2 n + 1 ) p
which means that p is divisible by 2 n + 1 , where n is unbounded. Therefore, a , b must both be integers, if finite.
Okay, so maybe this is easier to prove using modulo methods.
[Solution has been edited so this comment may not make sense.]
Can you check your "last term in the form"? I believe x n − 1 should be in the denominator.
FWIW When I tried this problem in the past, playing with (just) x and y wasn't all that helpful. I don't know for certain if that's going down the wrong path, but it didn't lead me far.
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Fixed, thank you. Hope it reads more coherently now.
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Note: Looking at the last term is insufficient. For example, if we set y = 2 x , then the last term is an integer. But with a , b = 1 ± 2 x , for odd x and n ≥ 3 (for safety), we still get a non-integer. This is because of the excess 2 k 1 flying around.
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@Calvin Lin – I was only considering eliminating odd primes, leaving 2 as the special case. I've fixed the wording on that too. Proof is still under construction, but it appears that Patrick Corn has provided the full proof. I'll see if there's another way to deal with 2 n in the denominator.
...Okay, looks like this proof isn't going anywhere, because of complications with that prime number 2.
[Solution has been edited so this comment may not make sense.]
Sorry to continually burst your bubble.
I disagree with
we can see that because the following is an integer
x 4 y 6 6 0 y + x 4 y 6 x 4 5 y 3
we know that the following must be an integer
x 4 5 y 3
because an integer divided by an integer need not be an integer. As an obvious counterexample, take x = 2 , y = 2 .
Assuming that the first handwaving step is true, you don't have to multiply all of the terms to get that
y
=
z
x
.
Suppose that for some prime
p
and integer
k
≥
1
,
p
k
∣
x
and
p
k
∣
y
, then taking
n
=
k
p
+
1
gives a non-integer.
(Redefining notation) The case of
a
=
2
p
,
b
=
2
q
for odd
p
,
q
is essentially the crux of the problem. Taking
2
n
+
1
as the power results in the first term having not enough powers of 2.
IE With reference to my solution, taking
l
=
p
n
+
1
>
k
makes
(
1
l
)
have no powers of
p
, while the rest of the binomial coefficients have a lot of powers of
p
. Though, it can be tricky to ensure that you have enough powers of
p
.
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okay let me think this through.. and meanwhile I'm still working on another proof elsewhere...
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I'm now looking at Patrick Corn's complete proof and your suggestions to see how I can follow through with my approach.
I keep thinking, "there's gotta be an easier way to show this"
Let's say that we have a fraction x 8 y 9 , and they share a prime number p in common. then y could be of the form y ′ p 8 while x is of the form x ′ p 9 , so that x y wouldn't eliminate that prime number p and still be a fraction. Otherwise, I could have resolved this with very low powers n . i.e., non-integer a , b solutions could conceivably exist for n < k for some finite integer k . In fact, maybe I should try to find some examples.
Let me think about your comments.
If we take √2 and √3, (√3)^2 - (√2)^2 = 1 and √2 and √3 are not integers...
sorry, i can't use latex well...
Let A = B x .
( B x ) n − B n
B n x n − B n
B n ( x n − 1 )
This value must be an integer for every positive integer n .
Say B is 3 1 , 3 4 , or any other non-integer fraction with denominator 3 . Given that for a certain value of n , the above expression is an integer, as n increases by 1 , the denominator of B n is multiplied by 3 , so ( x n − 1 ) must be multiplied by a multiple of 3 to cancel the fraction and keep the expression as an integer.
Generalizing, given that for a certain value of n , the above expression is an integer, as n increases by 1 , the denominator of B n is multiplied by B 1 , so ( x n − 1 ) must be multiplied by a multiple of B 1 to cancel the fraction and keep the expression as an integer. With this information, an equation representing this relationship can be created, where C can be any positive integer, so that C B 1 represents any multiple of B 1
C B 1 ( x n − 1 ) = x n + 1 − 1
B C = x n − 1 x n + 1 − 1
C B = x n + 1 − 1 x n − 1
B = C x n + 1 − 1 x n − 1
However, this would imply that B depends on which value of n is chosen! This is a contradiction because B is constant. The only values of x which would keep n from having any affect on B are x = 0 , 1 . If x = 0 , A = B ⋅ 0 = 0 , an integer. If x = 1 , A = B ⋅ 1 = B , which is not possible since A and B are distinct.
Therefore, A and B must be integers.
Hm, it's not clear to me what you're doing here.
Note that
1. You would want to set
C
n
=
A
n
−
B
n
A
n
+
1
−
B
n
+
1
, which is why this value can depend on
n
.
2. The ratio
A
n
−
B
n
A
n
+
1
−
B
n
+
1
need not be an integer. In fact, even for integers
A
,
B
), it is often not an integer.
3.
x
need not be an integer, even if
A
,
B
are integers. You need to be careful with tracking how the primes cancel out.
It might help me to understand if you go through your proof with A = 5 , B = 3 , and explain how we do not arrive at the conclusion that "x = 0, 1 ".
Let's prove this by contradiction, so let A n − B n ∈ Z and A ⋀ B ∈ Z for all n ∈ Z + .
Then for n = 1 , A − B ∈ Z .
And for n = 2 , A 2 − B 2 = ( A − B ) ( A + B ) ∈ Z which implies A + B ∈ Z .
And while we are at it (we'll need it later), for n = 4 , A 4 − B 4 = ( A − B ) ( A + B ) ( A 2 + B 2 ) ∈ Z which implies A 2 + B 2 ∈ Z .
Hence, we can let A − B = n 1 and A + B = n 2 with n 1 , n 2 ∈ Z . Solving for B , we can graph A vs B for various n 1 and n 2 .
Here the blue lines are B = A − n 1 and the green lines are B = − A + n 2 . It becomes immediately obvious using this representation that both A and B are half integer multiples. Further, via our assumption that A or B is not an integer, both must be non-integer in order that A + B ∈ Z .
Hence, let A = m a + 1 / 2 and B = m b + 1 / 2 with m a , m b ∈ Z . Then A 2 + B 2 = ( m a + 1 / 2 ) 2 + ( m b + 1 / 2 ) 2 = m a 2 + m a + m b 2 + m b + 1 / 2 ∈ Z , and we have a contradition.
Therefore, both A and B must be integers.
In the third line, you're making a very common misconception. Can you spot it?
Hint: 1 = 2 × 2 1 .
We do need to use the condition for
all positive integers n
.
As an explicit counter-example, since all that you used is
A
−
B
,
A
2
−
B
2
,
A
4
−
B
4
are integers, note that this is satisfied by
A
=
5
.
5
,
B
=
1
.
5
, but
A
and
B
are not integers.
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Ah yes. Quite the mistake I have made! I don't see an easy way to reconcile this mistake. Is there a way to extend the method outlined here, or is this method truly irreconcilable (method meaning a way to show that ( A + B ) , ( A 2 + B 2 ) ∈ Z given the assumptions)?
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Ah, no then. :) Thanks Calvin!
AFAIK, no.
Note that if the condition is " A n + B n are integers for all positive integers n" (But not that A n − B n are integers), then it's possible that A , B are not integers. This means that somehow we have "lost information" in going from A n − B n to A n + B n . See this problem for more details .
just suppose that n=1or2 for simplicity, then A=0.5 and B=0.25 ... but the answer isn't integer ... right?
Note that the condition must hold true for all values of n .
A = 0 . 5 , B = 0 . 2 5 doesn't satisfy the condition. In particular, 0 . 5 1 − 0 . 2 5 1 = 0 . 2 5 is not an integer.
I don´t understand. Just suppose that n=1 for simplicity, then A=2.5 and B=1.5 ... but the answer is integer ... right?
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The condition must hold true for all positive integers n . You cannot simply choose 1 value of n and test a value of A,B. In your counterexample, 2 . 5 3 − 1 . 5 3 = 1 2 . 2 5 is not an integer.
As an example, there is no integer C such that 2 n C is an integer for all positive integers n . However, if we fixed a value of n , then clearly such an integer exists.
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I'll just leave this here.