How complicated are the roots?

Algebra Level 3

True or False?

If a complex number N N satisfies N ( N + 1 ) ( N + 2 ) = 5 × 6 × 7 , N (N + 1)(N + 2)=5 \times 6 \times 7, then it must be the case that ( N + 6 ) ( N + 7 ) ( N + 8 ) = 11 × 12 × 13. (N+6)(N+7)(N+8) =11\times12\times13.

True False

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6 solutions

We are given that N ( N + 1 ) ( N + 2 ) = 5 × 6 × 7 = 210 N 3 + 3 N 2 + 2 N 210 = 0 N(N + 1)(N + 2) = 5 \times 6 \times 7 = 210 \Longrightarrow N^{3} + 3N^{2} + 2N - 210 = 0 .

By observation of the original equation N = 5 N = 5 is a solution, so factoring out this root we find that

N 3 + 3 N 2 + 2 N 210 = ( N 5 ) ( N 2 + 8 N + 42 ) = 0 N^{3} + 3N^{2} + 2N - 210 = (N - 5)(N^{2} + 8N + 42) = 0 .

Now N 2 + 8 N + 42 N^{2} + 8N + 42 does not have real roots as the discriminant is less than 0 0 , but we cannot assume than N N is real, so we must consider all complex roots as well Now the roots of this quadratic are

N = 8 ± 64 4 × 42 2 = 4 ± i 26 N = \dfrac{-8 \pm \sqrt{64 - 4 \times 42}}{2} = -4 \pm i\sqrt{26} .

Next, note that ( N + 6 ) ( N + 7 ) ( N + 8 ) = N 3 + 21 N 2 + 146 N + 336 = (N + 6)(N + 7)(N + 8) = N^{3} + 21N^{2} + 146N + 336 =

( N 3 + 3 N 2 + 2 N ) + 18 N 2 + 144 N + 336 = 210 + 18 N ( N + 8 ) + 336 = 546 + 18 N ( N + 8 ) . (N^{3} + 3N^{2} + 2N) + 18N^{2} + 144N + 336 = 210 + 18N(N + 8) + 336 = 546 + 18N(N + 8).

For our complex roots we have that N ( N + 8 ) = ( 4 ± i 26 ) ( 4 ± i 26 ) = 16 26 = 42 N(N + 8) = (-4 \pm i\sqrt{26})(4 \pm i\sqrt{26}) = -16 - 26 = -42 ,

in which case ( N + 6 ) ( N + 7 ) ( N + 8 ) = 546 + 18 × ( 42 ) = 210 11 × 12 × 13 (N + 6)(N + 7)(N + 8) = 546 + 18 \times (-42) = -210 \ne 11 \times 12 \times 13 .

So the answer is No \boxed{\text{No}} .

This is super complicated for intermediate

Tom Birkbeck - 4 years, 1 month ago

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Yes, this should be rated at least a level 2 problem. i suspect this is rated level 1 because of the simple "yes/no" setup, but having said that, at present only 52% have answered correctly, which is not much better than if people answered the question randomly.

Brian Charlesworth - 4 years, 1 month ago

N is not necessarily integer

Mohamed Rahim - 4 years, 1 month ago

By Observation N=5

Gopal Prashanth Muthyala - 4 years, 1 month ago

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If it had been specified that N N was real then N = 5 N = 5 is the unique solution. But since this was not specified we must look for complex solutions as well.

Brian Charlesworth - 4 years, 1 month ago

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Yes, the problem specified that N was a complex number. However, because real numbers are also complex numbers - since real numbers are a subset of complex numbers, I was under the impression that N = 5 could work, as well (N = 5 is equal to N = 5 + 0i).

J.J. The Great - 4 years, 1 month ago

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@J.J. The Great Yes, 5 5 does work, but the question is whether N ( N + 1 ) ( N + 2 ) = 5 6 7 N(N + 1)(N + 2) = 5*6*7 implies that ( N + 6 ) ( N + 7 ) ( N + 8 ) (N + 6)(N + 7)(N + 8) m u s t must equal 11 12 13 11*12*13 , and this is not true as I've shown in my solution.

Brian Charlesworth - 4 years, 1 month ago

If they ask is it always true or false its almost always false cuz otherwise whats the point of the question

Andy Wu - 1 year, 3 months ago

A natural number is still a complex number, with a 0 coefficient for i. So, the answer is debatable. I don't agree with the answer being No. You know, the purpose of these problems is to solve them in your mind, not on paper. That's how you test if you are brilliant or not. On paper, anyone with a good amount of knowledge in maths can solve it. So we aren't brilliant by solving these problems on paper, after all.

Victor Shirosaki - 4 years, 1 month ago

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The question is whether it m u s t must be the case that

( N + 6 ) ( N + 7 ) ( N + 8 ) = 11 × 12 × 13 (N + 6)(N + 7)(N + 8) = 11 \times 12 \times 13 given that

N ( N + 1 ) ( N + 2 ) = 5 × 6 × 7 N(N + 1)(N + 2) = 5 \times 6 \times 7 where N N is a complex number.

As there exists a complex value for N N such that this is not the case, the answer to the question is No.

P.S.. I see the pen and paper as an extension of the mind, so I don't consider that the use of them disqualifies our intelligence. :)

P.P.S.. That wasn't me who downvoted your comment. Your comment made me think, which is always a good thing. :)

Brian Charlesworth - 4 years, 1 month ago
Kunal Kundwani
May 11, 2017

N (N+1)(N+2)-5 x 6 x 7=0 and (N+6)(N+7)(N+8)-11 x 12 x 13=0 Both must have same roots(all three roots same) for the condition to apply in general. But the sum of roots is different in both equations. (-3 in equation 1 and -21 in equation 2). This implies that both equations have atleast one different root. Hence, false.(wherever I have mentioned root, I mean complex root.)

This is the simplest solution (and the one I'm looking for). Well done!

Pi Han Goh - 4 years, 1 month ago

That's not necessarily true if the first polynomial has repeated roots. If the first polynomial had only two different roots, then the second polynomial could have a different third root and thus the sum of the roots (counted with multiplicity) would be different. Of course you can check that the first polynomial doesn't have multiple roots by calculating the gcd between the polynomial and its derivative, for example.

Diego Castaño - 4 years ago
Diego Castaño
May 8, 2017

Since equation N ( N + 1 ) ( N + 2 ) = 5 × 6 × 7 N(N+1)(N+2) = 5 \times 6 \times 7 has degree 3, we know that it must have three complex solutions (counting multiplicities). Assume the three solutions were also solutions of the equation ( N + 6 ) ( N + 7 ) ( N + 8 ) = 11 × 12 × 13 (N+6)(N+7)(N+8) = 11 \times 12 \times 13 . Subtrating one equation from the other, we obtain an equation of second order, since the leading terms N 3 N^3 cancel out. Thus, the maximum number of solutions that satisfy both equations is 2. (Note: this is not a contradiction because the first equation could have multiple roots.)

We already know one solution to both equations: 5. Since the difference of the equations results in a polynomial equation with integer coefficients and 5 is one of the solutions, the other solution must also be an integer. (This is true in this case: see comment below, sorry!)

This shows that simultaneous solutions to both equations are integers. But the first solution is easily shown to have no integer solutions other than 5 (with multiplicity one).

This problem needs to highlight the word complex... And it needs to have more than two solutions. Just noting that the solution is complex and that this is a true or false question is almost enough to pin false as the probable answer.

Daniel Langstaff - 4 years, 1 month ago

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By the above comment i mean that it is enough to prove it false by noting that there is only one real solution. Thus any complex solution will falsify the statement.

Daniel Langstaff - 4 years, 1 month ago

This is an interesting approach.

Can you sketch a proof of the following?

Since the difference of the equations results in a polynomial equation with integer coefficients and 5 is one of the solutions, the other solution must also be an integer.

Agnishom Chattopadhyay - 4 years, 1 month ago

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Sorry, that is not true in general, but it IS true for the equation that results upon subtracting the original equations, which is 18 N 2 144 N + 1170 = 0 -18N^2-144N+1170 = 0 . You can either solve it and find its roots N = 5 N = 5 and N = 13 N = -13 , or you can use the fact that the sum of the two roots will be minus the coefficient of N N divided by the leading coefficient: in this case 144 / ( 18 ) = 8 144/(-18) = -8 .

Diego Castaño - 4 years, 1 month ago

Let f ( N ) = N ( N + 1 ) ( N + 2 ) 5 × 6 × 7 f(N) = N(N+1)(N+2) - 5 \times 6 \times7 and g ( N ) = ( N + 6 ) ( N + 7 ) ( N + 8 ) 11 × 12 × 13. g(N) = (N+6)(N+7)(N+8)-11 \times 12 \times 13. Since 5 is a root of both f and g, it divides the constant terms of both f and g. Thus it divides the constant term of f - g. If f - g is degree 2, that's equivalent to saying the other root is an integer.

Richard Desper - 4 years, 1 month ago

This is not true in general, because a polynomial equation with integer coefficients with one integer solution can have rational (and irrational) roots also, as in the equation (N - 1)(2N - 1) , which has roots 1 and 1/2. It would've been easier to understand if he stated that "The resulting equation is quadratic with REAL coefficients. However, since one of the roots is 5, and the second root must be complex (a+bi), by Vieta's formulas, the middle term would have a coefficient of -(5+a+bi), which is obviously not a real number."

Mikhaella Layos - 4 years ago

Two nitpicks: a) you need to show that subtracting the polynomials doesn't leave us with the zero polynomial. (Not hard to do, but something needs to be said.) b) " the first solution is easily shown to have no integer solutions other than 5" Seems like a big thing to just skip over.

Richard Desper - 4 years, 1 month ago

If N(N+1)(N+2) = 210 and N is an integer, then it must be 5 x 6 x 7 since the integers are consecutive. N, N+1, and N+2 differ by one, so if they are complex, it must be (a+bi)(a+1+bi)(a+2+bi). If you multiply these factors out, the result is a^3 + 3a^2 -3ab^2 + 2a - 3b^2 + i(3ba^2 + 6ab + 2b - b^3). Since the original equation has a product of 210 which as a complex number would be 210 + 0i, then 3ba^2 + 6ab + 2b - b^3 must be equal to 0 which can only happen if b=0. So N in the original equation can only be 5+0i and the following numbers are 6+0i and 7+0i. The only solution for the first equation is N = 5. If the equation is worked out as the product of complex numbers, a = 5, and b = 0, then the original equation holds true.

If (N+6)(N+7)(N+8) is expanded as complex numbers, it would mean multiplying (a+6+bi)(a+7+bi)(a+8+bi). The product is a^3 + 21a^2 +146a - 3ab^2 +336 - 21b^2 + i(3ba^2 + 42ab +146b - b^3). Since this product is equal to 1716 + 0i, once again we must have b = 0. That leaves a^3 + 21a^2 +146a +336 = 1716 which is true for a = 5.

I don't see how the answer to this problem could be other than true.

Lowell Beal - 4 years ago
George Foot
May 11, 2017

This is pretty clear if you think about it with polar coordinates.

Assume without loss of generality that 0 < a r g ( N ) < π 0 < arg(N) < \pi .

Then if N ( N + 1 ) ( N + 2 ) N(N+1)(N+2) is real and positive, then a r g ( N ) + a r g ( N + 1 ) + a r g ( N + 2 ) = 2 π arg(N) + arg(N+1) + arg(N+2) = 2\pi . Clearly such a solution exists, where the three arguments are roundabout 2 π 3 \frac{2\pi}{3} .

Adding a positive real x x to each expression reduces each argument term, so the resulting angles sum to less than 2 π 2\pi , and so the product ( N + x ) ( N + 1 + x ) ( N + 2 + x ) (N+x)(N+1+x)(N+2+x) cannot also be a positive real for any x > 0 x > 0 .

In this case, x = 6, and the product of (11x12x13) is indeed possible, no?

Pi Han Goh - 4 years ago

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I excluded the case that arg(N) is zero.

George Foot - 4 years ago

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Ah got it! Thanks. I didn't expect polar coordinates to work at all!

Pi Han Goh - 4 years ago
Leonel Castillo
Aug 15, 2018

Let P ( x ) = x ( x + 1 ) ( x + 2 ) P(x) = x(x+1)(x+2) . If all the numbers N N that satisfied the first equation also satisfied the second one, we would have P ( x ) 5 × 6 × 7 = P ( x + 6 ) 11 × 12 × 13 P(x) - 5 \times 6 \times 7 = P(x + 6) - 11 \times 12 \times 13 (Polynomial equality). Now, take the derivative twice and we get that P ( x ) = P ( x + 6 ) P''(x) = P''(x+6) . But P ( x ) P''(x) is a linear polynomial of the form a x + b ax + b so this equation says:

a x + b = a ( x + 6 ) + b a x + b = a x + b + 6 a 6 a = 0 a = 0 ax + b = a(x+6) + b \implies ax + b = ax + b + 6a \implies 6a =0 \implies a=0 But a 0 a \neq 0 because otherwise the first degree polynomial would be constant.

Swetank Sharan
May 14, 2017

if u watch first equation only origin is shifted by 6 units ....we will compare constant term obtained after shifting in 1 st euation which will 90 but accroding to given equation it will come 1380... so its false

we will compare constant term obtained after shifting in 1 st euation which will 90 but accroding to given equation it will come 1380

What constant term? how do you get 90? how do you get 1380?

Pi Han Goh - 4 years ago

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