A recursive sequence is defined as a 0 = π and a n = lo g a n − 1 2 7 .
Given that n → ∞ lim a n exists, what is n → ∞ lim a n ?
Bonus: For what values of a 0 does n → ∞ lim a n exist?
This section requires Javascript.
You are seeing this because something didn't load right. We suggest you, (a) try
refreshing the page, (b) enabling javascript if it is disabled on your browser and,
finally, (c)
loading the
non-javascript version of this page
. We're sorry about the hassle.
The actual range a 0 can exist is exclusive of those numbers, because if it is at the boundaries, it would oscillate forever between the 2 numbers, and thus it would never converge to a number. If it is out of the range, the resulting number would eventually become negative, which we cannot take the logarithm of, thus making is impossible.
Start off by using change of base for logarithms to simplify the problem. a n = lo g a n − 1 ( 2 7 ) = lo g ( a n − 1 ) lo g ( 2 7 ) Now, let's start calculating the first few numbers in the sequence: a 0 = π a 1 = lo g π ( 2 7 ) = lo g ( π ) lo g ( 2 7 ) a 2 = lo g lo g π ( 2 7 ) ( 2 7 ) = lo g ( lo g π ( 2 7 ) lo g ( 2 7 ) = lo g ( lo g ( π ) lo g ( 2 7 ) ) lo g ( 2 7 ) In this way, we see that the each consecutive term in the sequence embeds the previous term in itself. Therefore, we can redefine the recursive sequence as: a 0 = π , a n = lo g ( a n − 1 ) lo g ( 2 7 ) Since infinity is not a number, but a concept, then we have lim n → ∞ a n = lo g ( a n ) lo g ( 2 7 ) Now we can solve for the limit: a n = lo g ( a n ) lo g ( 2 7 ) lo g ( a n ) ⋅ a n = lo g ( 2 7 ) lo g ( ( a n ) a n ) ) = lo g ( 2 7 ) ( a n ) a n = 2 7 = 3 3 ⟹ a n = 3 Bonus Because of the function we just made, we have proven that there is no initial value such that the limit as n approaches infinity is infinity. Therefore, the only way the limit could not exist is if the number eventually gets negative or when the value oscillates between 2 fixed values. So in other words a 1 = a 3 = lo g ( n ) lo g ( 2 7 ) = lo g ( lo g ( lo g ( n ) lo g ( 2 7 ) ) lo g ( 2 7 ) ) lo g ( 2 7 ) and a 0 = a 2 = n = lo g ( lo g ( n ) lo g ( 2 7 ) ) lo g ( 2 7 ) . Let's just solve for one equation and make sure that the other is not equal. So, to make it simple, let's solve for the second case: n = lo g ( lo g ( n ) lo g ( 2 7 ) ) lo g ( 2 7 ) lo g ( lo g ( n ) lo g ( 2 7 ) ) ⋅ n = lo g ( 2 7 ) lo g ( ( lo g ( n ) lo g ( 2 7 ) ) n ) = lo g ( 2 7 ) ( lo g ( n ) lo g ( 2 7 ) ) n = 2 7 ( lo g ( n ) ) n 1 = ( lo g ( 2 7 ) ) n 2 7 ( lo g ( n ) ) n = 2 7 ( lo g ( 2 7 ) ) n n ≈ 1 . 2 9 5 4 3 or 1 2 . 7 3 3 2 7 Upon inspection, it is clear that the number becomes negative if it is not between these two numbers, so this means that the interval on which a 0 can exist is a 0 ∈ ( 1 . 2 9 5 4 3 , 1 2 . 7 3 3 2 7 )
Should line four read ( lo g ( n ) lo g ( 2 7 ) ) n = 2 7 ?
Log in to reply
Yes, I fixed it
Log in to reply
Yes, but then how can you divide? Don't you have ( lo g ( n ) ) n 1 = ( lo g ( 2 7 ) ) n 2 7
I don't understand.
Pump you...
jUST jOKING....
I have a question about the line in which you defined f ( x ) . You defined f ( x ) = lo g π lo g x , and stated lim n → ∞ a n = f ( 2 7 ) . Why should the limit be f ( 2 7 ) ? Also, this implies that lim n → ∞ a n = lo g π lo g 2 7 ≈ 2 . 8 7 9 , which is not 3, the actual limit. Can you explain this part, please?
Log in to reply
Sorry for the bad wording. f ( x ) is not supposed to describe a n , but rather, it is something embedded inside of itself and infinite amount of times to get a n . In the a 2 case, we see that it is embedded in itself once. If we observe what happens for the subsequent terms in the sequence, we notice that as n → ∞ , the function f ( x ) becomes embedded in itself an infinite amount of times, and therefore, I got the equation f ( 2 7 ) = lo g ( f ( 2 7 ) ) lo g ( 2 7 ) . I couldn't find the right wording to describe it, so I just called it a function during the time, which now that I look at it, is pretty confusing.
I just edited my answer. Hopefully it makes more sense now.
Is there any ways to nicely compute the last given values by hand, assuming you used wolfram alfa or some.
Log in to reply
I couldn't think of a nice way to calculate it by hand, which I always prefer instead of calculator. I tried to find a way, but in the end, I got to n 2 7 n 1 = 2 7 which I don't think is solvable. I then tried using calculus by taking the limit as k approaches 0 of the integrals of both sides from n to n+1/k, which did not turn out well (I ended up getting the exponential integral, which I do not want to deal with).
The plot of a n against n shows the convergence clearly.
As mentioned by @Chan Lye Lee , a n = lo g a n − 1 2 7 , ⟹ a n − 1 a n = 2 7 = 3 3 . If lim n → ∞ a n exists, then lim n → ∞ a n = lim n → ∞ a n − 1 = 3
Bonus: We note from the graph that the values of a n oscillate up and down. The limit does not exist when a n oscillates between two values a 0 and a 1 . This happens when a 0 a 1 = a 1 a 0 = 2 7 . Let these two values be α and β , then the limit exist if α < a 0 < β and it is found that α ≈ 1 . 2 9 5 4 3 and β ≈ 1 2 . 7 3 3 2 7 . Note that α β = β α = 2 7 .
this might be right
a = lo g lo g lo g . . . 2 7 2 7 2 7
a = lo g a 2 7
a a = 2 7
a = 3
The first question one should ask is: What about π is important in this problem? In this case, it is a property that π has been known to have for thousands of years. A fundamental theorem everyone should know, that π > 3 . So how can we apply this? Well, notice that 2 7 = 3 3 so lo g 3 2 7 = 3 and therefore a 1 = lo g π 2 7 < 3 . But now that a 1 < 3 this implies that a 2 = lo g a 1 2 7 > 3 . So we have the general property that a 2 n > 3 and a 2 n + 1 < 3 . Now, we know that the limit exists so let's try to conjecture where that limit must be. If the limit is bigger than 3 then that would be contradictory as the a 2 n + 1 would never converge to a number bigger than 3. If the limit was smaller than 3 then that would be contradictory as the a 2 n would never converge to something smaller than 3. But we know the limit exists so it must be exactly 3 .
My solution was: When you're lazy on a Sunday night, type '1, 2, and 3' into the answer box. Looks like I was correct.
Easy, just use an iterative method starting with π as the base of the logarithm
Problem Loading...
Note Loading...
Set Loading...
It is a nice question. As a n = lo g a n − 1 2 7 implies a n − 1 a n = 2 7 = 3 3 which means that if the limit exist (says the limit is n → ∞ lim a n = x = n → ∞ lim a n − 1 , then x x = 3 3 ), it must be 3. I have not found any algebraic proof. I used Geogebra and notice that the result will still the same if 1 . 3 ≤ a 0 ≤ 1 2 . 7 3 , and the limit does not exist if a 0 is out of the range. I wish to know why lim n → ∞ a n does not exist so such a 0 .