Inspired by A Lot Of People

Calculus Level 4

What can we say about positive real solutions to the equations

x x 2018 = 2018 and x x x . . . = 2018 ? \Large x^{{x}^{2018}} = 2018\quad \text{ and }\quad x^{x^{x^{^ {.^{.^.} } } }} = 2018\,?

One exists, the other does not They exist, and are the same They exist, but are different

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3 solutions

Calvin Lin Staff
Jan 11, 2018

The solution to the first equation is x = 201 8 1 2018 x = 2018^{ \frac{ 1} { 2018} } .
The solution to the second equation is not x = 201 8 1 2018 x = 2018^{ \frac{ 1} { 2018} } . In fact, there is no (positive real) solution to this equation.


Find the error in this approach

First, prove that x = 201 8 1 2018 x = 2018^{ \frac{1}{2018} } is a solution to the first problem. This can be done by showing that

  • On x > 1 x > 1 , x x 2018 x^{ x^{ 2018} } is an increasing function on x > 1 x > 1 , hence there is at best a unique answer on x > 1 x > 1 . Manually verify that x = 201 8 1 2018 x = 2018^{ \frac{1}{2018} } works.
  • On 0 < x < 1 0 < x < 1 , x x 2018 < 1 x^{ x^{2018} } < 1 , hence there are no solutions.

Let y = x x = 2018 y = x^{x ^ \ldots } = 2018 .
By substituting into the power, we get y = x y y = x^ y .
Thus, x = y 1 y = 201 8 1 2018 x = y^{\frac{1}{y} } = 2018^{ \frac{1}{2018} } .
Hence, the 2 solutions are the same.
What is the error made?

Explanation of the error

The error is made in saying "Let y = x x = 2018 y = x^{x^\ldots } = 2018 ." without justifying that it is a valid step. Just because you write down a string of symbols, doesn't mean that it must make sense. Specifically, this value does not converge for some values of x x (e.g. x = 2 x = 2 ), hence we do not yet know if there is a value of x x which will make this statement valid. This results in a circular argument of "Let's assume a solution exists. Hence a solution exists".

Instead, the proper conclusion is "If there is a solution, then the solution can only be x = 201 8 1 2018 x = 2018^{\frac{1}{2018} } ". We now have to verify if it is indeed a solution. By looking at the first few terms, for x = 201 8 1 2018 1.00378 x = 2018^{\frac{1}{2018} } \approx 1.00378 , we have x x x 1.00379 , x x x x 1.00379 x^{x^x} \approx 1.00 379, x^{x^{x^x}} \approx 1.00 379 , and so this sequence converges to 1.00379 1.00 379 . Hence, this value of x x is not a solution to the equation that we're looking for.

More generally, how can we know what x x x^{ x^\ldots } converge to? The previous discussion shows that we will require x = n 1 n x = n ^ \frac{1}{n} . If there is no solution, then clearly it will not converge. But, if a solution exists, must it converge? And what happens if multiple solutions exist?
To fully answer this requires a bit more theory which I will not go into as yet. Here's an outline of the result:

  • For x > e 1 e x > e^ \frac{1}{e} , there is no solution to x = n 1 n x = n^\frac{1}{ n } , and (expectedly) the tower does not converge.
  • For x = e 1 e x = e^ \frac{1}{e} , the tower converges to e e .
  • For e 1 e > x > 1 e^ \frac{1}{e} > x > 1 , there are 2 solutions to the equation x = n 1 n x = n^{ \frac{1}{n} } , and the tower converges to the smaller of these values. In particular, it will be smaller than e e . As an example, x = 201 8 1 2018 = 1.0037 9 1 1.00379 x = 2018^{ \frac{1}{2018}} = 1.00379^{ \frac{1}{1.00379 }} . Hence, we get x x x^{x^\ldots } converting to 1.00379 1.00379 .
  • For 1 x 1 e e 1 \geq x \geq \frac{1}{ e^e } , there is 1 solution to x = n 1 n x = n^\frac{1}{ n } , which the tower converges to.
  • For 1 e e > x > 0 \frac{1}{e^e } > x > 0 , there is 1 solution to x = n 1 n x = n^\frac{1}{ n } , the tower does not converge,

Notes from the discussions.

  1. This error is very similar to the instance where we squared both sides of an equation and potentially introduced an extraneous solution, and thus have to check whether or not it is a valid solution. Due to the one-way implication, we have a necessary condition that restricts what the solutions could be, and must then verify if the solutions are indeed valid.

  2. Infinite powers can exist/converge even though x > 1 x > 1 . As an example, a well-known fact (which I will not prove) is that if x = 2 x = \sqrt{2} then x x = 2 x ^ { x ^ \ldots } = 2 . Indeed, in this scenario x 2 = 2 x ^ 2 = 2 .

  3. However, if x x is "too large", then infinite towers might not exist. As an example, 2 2 2^{2^\ldots } will not converge.

  4. If we take x = 201 8 1 2018 1.00378 x = 2018^{ \frac{1}{2018} } \approx 1.00378 then the sequence x , x x , x x x x, x^x, x^{x^x} does converge. However, it does not converge to 2018. This shouldn't be too surprising since 1.00378 < 2 1.00 378 < \sqrt{2} , so the limit should be bounded above by 2 2 = 2 \sqrt{2}^{ \sqrt{2} ^ \ldots } = 2 .

  5. What is the range of x x for which x x x^{ x^\ldots } converges?

@Jon Haussmann @Steve Chow @Saurabh Bansal

Thanks for inspiring this problem.

Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 5 months ago

Hehehe! : )

Blackpen Redpen - 3 years, 5 months ago

@Calvin Lin

Can you please state why and the solution to it??

A Former Brilliant Member - 3 years, 4 months ago

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Ya the reason is simple TRY DOING THIS FOR A MILLION OF TIMES; U NEVER GET CLOSER TO THE SOUTION

Ariijit Dey - 3 years, 4 months ago

2018 2018 = 1.003778111 \sqrt[2018]{2018} = 1.003778111

If you take x = 2018 2018 x=\sqrt[2018]{2018} and try x x x . . x^{x^{x^{.^.}}} , you will get the answer tending to 1.003792467 1.003792467 . It is not 2018 2018 . In fact, for x x x . . = a x^{x^{x^{.^.}}} = a to have a real solution, e 1 < a < e e e^{-1}<a<\sqrt[e]{e} .

Janardhanan Sivaramakrishnan - 3 years, 4 months ago

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Wow, could you explain the last part.

Pau Cantos - 3 years, 4 months ago

Sir but when x=2018^(1/2018) and we try out x^x^x... We get 2018^(1/2018)*2018^(1/2018)...... and so on so do we not get 2018?????

erica phillips - 3 years, 4 months ago

Well for the second equation, if x is bigger than one, then it's unbounded. Therefore, the solution for first equation doesn't apply to the second one.

Yinchen Wu - 3 years, 4 months ago

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That claim is not true.

There are some values larger than 1 that will converge. As an example, 2 2 2 = 2 \sqrt{2} ^ { \sqrt{2} ^ { \sqrt{2} ^ \ldots } } = 2 .

It is true that for large enough values, it becomes unbounded. As an example, 2 2 2 2^ { 2 ^ {2 ^ \ldots } } is unbounded.

Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 4 months ago

Surely "they are different" is not really the answer? "The first exists, but the second does not" is more to the point.

Mark Hennings - 3 years, 4 months ago

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Ah indeed. I've updated the answer options to reflect this.

Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 4 months ago

Could you help me understand what is wrong with this line of reasoning for the second equation?

x x x = 2018 x^{x^{x^{\cdot^{\cdot^{\cdot}}}}} = 2018

ln ( x x x ) = ln ( 2018 ) \ln(x^{x^{x^{\cdot^{\cdot^{\cdot}}}}}) = \ln(2018)

x x x × ln ( x ) = ln ( 2018 ) x^{x^{x^{\cdot^{\cdot^{\cdot}}}}} \times \ln(x) = \ln(2018)

2018 × ln ( x ) = ln ( 2018 ) 2018 \times \ln(x) = \ln(2018)

ln ( x ) = ln ( 2018 ) 2018 \ln(x) = \frac{\ln(2018)}{2018}

x = e ln ( 2018 ) 2018 x = e^{\frac{\ln(2018)}{2018}}

x = ( e ln ( 2018 ) ) 1 2018 x = (e^{\ln(2018)})^{\frac{1}{2018}}

x = 201 8 1 2018 = 2018 2018 x = 2018^{\frac{1}{2018}} = \sqrt[2018]{2018}

Calvin Osborne - 3 years, 4 months ago

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You are experiencing the misconception that the problem aims to highlight.

Which of these steps is substantiated assuming the previous step is true?
Which of these steps do you think is the most dubious? Why?
What assumptions are you making? Are these valid?

Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 4 months ago

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Does the issue arise when we substitute x x x x^{x^{x^{\cdot^{\cdot^{\cdot}}}}} for 2018 2018 in step 4? That steps seems the most dubious, as the rest of the algebra checks out.

Calvin Osborne - 3 years, 4 months ago

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@Calvin Osborne That is one possible interpretation.

I use the word "possible" because it could be substantiated by the first step.

Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 4 months ago

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@Calvin Lin Ohhh, I think I see, the solution 2018 2018 \sqrt[2018]{2018} makes absolutely no sense as when you continue to multiply this number by itself the value keeps growing. Of course it wouldn't suddenly land on 2018! But what does this answer mean for the equation if the rest of the steps are logically sound? How did this answer appear if the steps are right, but there clearly is no solution? Or was there some mistake in the reasoning?

Calvin Osborne - 3 years, 4 months ago

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@Calvin Osborne The mistake is in the very first line.
Namely, the assumption you are making is "A solution exists". Just because you write down a string of symbols, doesn't mean that it must make sense. In a similar manner, a random collection of words might not yield a valid sentence.
So, what you have shown is that "If a solution exists, then the solution can only be x = 201 8 1 2018 x = 2018 ^ \frac{1}{2018} ".
The next step of the proof is to verify if x = 201 8 1 2018 x = 2018 ^ \frac{1}{2018} indeed satisfies the original equation, which it does not. Hence, there is no solution.

This comes up often in limit problems, especially when you see "Set L = lim L = \lim \ldots ." There is apriori no reason why the limit must exist, and it needs to be further justified. E.g. through a delta-epsilon argument.

Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 4 months ago

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@Calvin Lin Ok that makes a lot of sense, thanks for the help!

Calvin Osborne - 3 years, 4 months ago

The notation for the second equation implies that there is more than one x in the tower, I assume? Otherwise, you could have an equation of the form 2018 = 2018.

Shawn Franchi - 3 years, 4 months ago

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The notation for the second equation implies that there are infinitely many x x in the tower. It does not imply that you can choose a finite cut off point.

To indicate that there is a finite cut off point, what is often done is to say " x x x x^{x^{\ldots ^ x }} with n n x x 's".

Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 4 months ago

What steps did you take to derive the solution 2018^(1/2018) ?

Luke Worth - 3 years, 4 months ago

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For the first equation,

First, prove that x = 201 8 1 2018 x = 2018^{ \frac{1}{2018} } is a solution to the first problem. This can be done by showing that

  • On x > 1 x > 1 , x x 2018 x^{ x^{ 2018} } is an increasing function on x > 1 x > 1 , hence there is at best a unique answer on x > 1 x > 1 . Manually verify that x = 201 8 1 2018 x = 2018^{ \frac{1}{2018} } works.
  • On 0 < x < 1 0 < x < 1 , x x 2018 < 1 x^{ x^{2018} } < 1 , hence there are no solutions.

For the second equation, x = 201 8 1 2018 x = 2018^{ \frac{1}{2018} } is NOT a solution.

Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 4 months ago

Sir could u pls explain why have we found the value of x=2018^(1/2018)=1.00378 and then we raise x to its powers and say that it does not converge to the required but to a different one which is 1.00379 but we don't find the value of √2^√2??? pls help me out

erica phillips - 3 years, 4 months ago

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Read the part on "More generally, how can we know what x x x^{ x^\ldots } converge to?"

Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 4 months ago

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But sir from where will I get it??

erica phillips - 3 years, 4 months ago

What if we change the order of actions? For, example, for x = 0.9 x = 0.9 we have 0. 9 0. 9 . . . 0.9^{0.9^{...}} Beginning from the first action, we have 0.9095.. . 0. 9 0. 9 . . . 0.9095...^{0.9^{0.9^{...}}} and lim x 0.9 x x . . . = 1 \lim_{x\to0.9}{x{^{x^{...}}}} = 1 . Now, lim x 0.9 x x . . . = x lim x 0.9 x x . . . = 0.9 \lim_{x\to0.9}{x{^{x^{...}}}} = x^{\lim_{x\to0.9}{x{^{x^{...}}}}} = 0.9 . Is that legit?

Vadim Shkaberda - 3 years, 4 months ago

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I do not understand what you are saying. Let me list out my concerns.

  1. What do you mean by "first action"? Specifically, what is 0.9095.. . 0. 9 0. 9 . . . 0.9095...^{0.9^{0.9^{...}}} ?
  2. You seem to be assuming that the tower of exponents always exists. The point of the problem is that it doesn't exist for a certain range, and so this step needs to be justified.
  3. Are you trying to take limits where you only adjust 1 of the x x values? Remember that when evaluating lim x 0 x x \lim_{x\rightarrow 0} x^x , and we cannot set (say) the base x x to be 0 to conclude that lim x 0 x x = lim x 0 0 x = 0 \lim_{x \rightarrow 0 } x^ x = \lim_{x \rightarrow 0} 0^x = 0 . While it is a happy coincidence that lim x 0 x x = lim x 0 x 0 \lim_{x \rightarrow 0 } x^ x = \lim_{ x\rightarrow 0 } x^ 0 , this does not justify that the general case.
  4. I do not know how you arrived at lim x 0.9 x x . . . = 1 \lim_{x\to0.9}{x{^{x^{...}}}} = 1 . It is not a true statement. The limit would be about 0.9087.
  5. In your final step of "Now, lim x 0.9 x x . . . = x lim x 0.9 x x . . . = 0.9 \lim_{x\to0.9}{x{^{x^{...}}}} = x^{\lim_{x\to0.9}{x{^{x^{...}}}}} = 0.9 . ", you are committing the previous 2 errors.

Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 4 months ago

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  1. I meant can we do "raise to power" operation in random order, such as: 0. 9 0. 9 . . . = ( 0. 9 0.9 ) 0. 9 . . . ( 0.9095 ) 0. 9 0. 9 . . . = ( 0.909 5 0.9 ) 0. 9 . . . = . . . 0.9^{0.9^{...}}=(0.9^{0.9})^{0.9^{...}} \approx (0.9095)^{0.9^{0.9^{...}}}= (0.9095^{0.9})^{0.9^{...}} = ... ?
2-3. These statements clarify a lot, thank you.

Vadim Shkaberda - 3 years, 4 months ago

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@Vadim Shkaberda 1) Review how are exponent towers evaluated? It is not done in a "random order". In particular, it is evaluated from the top down, not from the bottom up as you have it.

So yes, that's an issue with understanding the infinite tower notation, a "better" way to describe what we're saying is . . . x x x . ^ { . ^ { . ^ { x ^ { x ^ x } } } } , but that just feels weird.

Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 4 months ago
Zach Abueg
Jan 22, 2018

Regarding the second equation:

Euler showed that lim n x x x n times \displaystyle \lim_{n \ \to \ \infty} \underbrace{x^{x^{\cdot ^{\cdot ^{x}}}}}_{\text{n times}} converges for 1 e e x e 1 e \displaystyle \large \frac{1}{e^e} \leq x \leq e^{\frac1e} , which bounds y = x x x n times \displaystyle \large y = \underbrace{x^{x^{\cdot ^{\cdot ^{x}}}}}_{\text{n times}} to 1 e y e \displaystyle \large \frac 1e \leq y \leq e . The limit, should it exist, is a positive real solution of the equation y = x y \large y = x^y . Thus, x = y 1 y \large x = y^{\frac 1y} .

The limit defining the infinite tetration of x \large x fails to converge for x > e 1 e \large x > e^{\frac1e} because the maximum of y \large y is e \large e . Thus, there exists no (positive real) solution for the equation x x x = 2018 x^{x^{\cdot ^{\cdot ^{x}}}} = 2018 .

Nikolay Murzin
Jan 22, 2018

The second infinite power sequence is either 1 or diverges, therefore there is no solution.

That claim is not true. For example, 2 2 = 2 \sqrt{2} ^ { \sqrt{ 2 } ^ \ldots } = 2 . It helps that x = 2 x = \sqrt{2} satisfies the equation x 2 = 2 x^ 2 = 2 .

Note: It is not true that 2 2 = 4 \sqrt{2} ^ { \sqrt{ 2 } ^ \ldots } = 4 , even though x = 2 x = \sqrt{2} satisfies the equation x 4 = 4 x^ 4 = 4 .

Calvin Lin Staff - 3 years, 4 months ago

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